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The Official Minor Complaints Thread - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
November 09 2008 04:18 GMT
#121
On November 09 2008 12:21 garmule2 wrote:
New engine. No matter what Blizzard says, you and I all know that SC2, Diablo 3, WoW, and WC3 were all just modified from the same glows-too-much cartoonish-looking ooh-its-like-WoW-it-must-be-awesome engine that the lazy programmers over at Blizzard have been using for years. These aren't the same guys that produced the real gems from Blizzard's past. It shows.

This is such a pointless complaint tho - the engine will NOT change, we are literally a few months away from beta.

Like, in what way is this a minor complaint? You are basically saying "scratch EVERYTHING, make a new engine".

Anyway, personally I think the game *looks* great, not to mention that so far, everyone I've heard from who went to blizzcon or other such events has said the graphics are great. I'm not really worried.

Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Chuiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
3470 Posts
November 09 2008 05:11 GMT
#122
Wings and shields. WINGS AND SHIELDS. WINGS AND SHIELDS!!!!!!
♞
PliX
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands72 Posts
November 09 2008 21:25 GMT
#123
Another minor complaint, I want the original Jim Raynor voiceactor back!

Will never forget what he said
"Howdy boys and girls, I am Jim Raynor, Marshall of these parts." I love him.
1. NTT - Best Brood War player in the history of the game. Also totally awesome and super sweet. Some ego problems.
Centric
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1989 Posts
November 09 2008 23:34 GMT
#124
On November 10 2008 06:25 PliX wrote:
Another minor complaint, I want the original Jim Raynor voiceactor back!

Will never forget what he said
"Howdy boys and girls, I am Jim Raynor, Marshall of these parts." I love him.

Agreed...I don't like the new Raynor at all.
Super serious.
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
November 10 2008 01:53 GMT
#125
On November 05 2008 02:12 sushiman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2008 21:05 DeCoup wrote:
On November 04 2008 19:48 sushiman wrote:
On November 04 2008 12:27 onepost wrote:
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote:
Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.

I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.

In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.

But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.

And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.

There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers.
Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game.
Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.


No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.

If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.

Improved pathing is one thing, units automatically surrounding is another. I have nothing against units knowing which route to take to a destination, I love the concept of not having to babysit my units due to some map having small passages or neutral buildings blocking the route, making the AI of the units break and forcing them to dance around.
However, units automatically positioning themself to always attack units is an entirely different thing. If anything, they should just stop units from dancing around trying to reach the target. Instead they should wait in place until given order to move around or the unit in front moves/dies, then continue with the previous command, unless another one is given. If the units automatically find the best angle and moves around, I'd say the amount of micro required for your units would be reduced by at least 30-40%, which is not good for a game that have already streamlined macro immensely (which is another subject that won't be discussed here).
I realize you might consider this a backward move when pathing can be improved so much, but I find this a huge concern in a game that should demand alot from a player and his/her control of the units.

[Emphasis added]

I know this is completely counterintuitive to anybody but a software developer familiar with pathfinding, but it really is the same thing. For the pathfinding algorithm, allied units are obstacles just like terrain and doodads, with the exception that allied units can move, hence make way for one another. The surrounding behavior is exactly that: allied units going around one another, or making way for one another, to reach the same target.

The consequence of this is that you have to choose between the old and the new behavior, without possible compromise; the pathfinding is cooperative or it isn't. What do you prefer then? Units surrounding targets, or bumping into each other and getting stuck at chokes? I definitely prefer the former, and I would maintain my choice even if I considered surround a bad thing, which I don't.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
November 10 2008 05:19 GMT
#126
Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?

Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?

Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Alizee-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States845 Posts
November 10 2008 05:54 GMT
#127
WC3 still has the "YOU FUCKING RETARDED UNIT STOP GOING THAT WAY" kind of feeling, but certainly far better than sc. Also as far as surrounds go, its not too hard because the units are much bigger...especially like..bears while as sc units..SEEM smaller(haven't played it yet either) oh and uhh come out with beta
Strength behind the Pride
onepost
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada297 Posts
November 10 2008 17:34 GMT
#128
On November 10 2008 14:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?

Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?

Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)

About the two zealots guarding the ramp: it seems possible. I'd more or less dictate the engine to not move if they're on stop or hold position. It might require some tweaking though, if you insist on stop, but hold position is easy.

WC3 pathfinding: Non-cooperative pathfinding might be adequate for WC3, but then it has many less units, and the maps are very different as well. If what I read about SC2 is correct, and it will have even larger armies than SC:BW, then it would be a disaster!

Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it.
There are three types of lies: statistics, studies, and benchmarks.
Ki_Do
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)981 Posts
November 10 2008 20:42 GMT
#129
Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it

or dont play this @##@
I've got a point, and i'm ready to kill or die for it.
KameZerg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1761 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-10 22:26:51
November 10 2008 22:26 GMT
#130
Honestly, Blizzard aren't what they used to be.
asdasdasdasdasd123123123
PobTheCad
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
Australia893 Posts
November 10 2008 22:48 GMT
#131
auto surround sounds like it favours zerg heavily and disadvantages T
Once again back is the incredible!
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
November 10 2008 23:22 GMT
#132
On November 11 2008 07:48 PobTheCad wrote:
auto surround sounds like it favours zerg heavily and disadvantages T


Thats just a matter of balance. Give them less damage or health and the increased path-finding is not an advantage.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
November 10 2008 23:23 GMT
#133
On November 10 2008 14:54 Alizee- wrote:
WC3 still has the "YOU FUCKING RETARDED UNIT STOP GOING THAT WAY" kind of feeling,


I can't tell you how many times I've died in Dota because right clicking away from the enemies somehow makes me hero turn right into them T_T
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We Are Here
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Australia1810 Posts
November 11 2008 03:38 GMT
#134
On November 11 2008 08:23 GeneralStan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2008 14:54 Alizee- wrote:
WC3 still has the "YOU FUCKING RETARDED UNIT STOP GOING THAT WAY" kind of feeling,


I can't tell you how many times I've died in Dota because right clicking away from the enemies somehow makes me hero turn right into them T_T
click close to ur hero because i find that if i click far away on the map my hero has retarded pathfinding
He who turns those around him into allies, possesses the most terrifying ability in the world.
PliX
Profile Joined May 2008
Netherlands72 Posts
November 12 2008 20:48 GMT
#135
I am on a roll, you guys must be thinking I hate everything blizzard is up too, but honestly I am just soo much better at being negative than positive!

All books in the starcraft universe suck, they do not live up to the story made in the games itself, the books should be non-canon.
1. NTT - Best Brood War player in the history of the game. Also totally awesome and super sweet. Some ego problems.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-13 02:20:29
November 13 2008 02:16 GMT
#136
On November 11 2008 02:34 onepost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2008 14:19 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?

Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?

Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)

About the two zealots guarding the ramp: it seems possible. I'd more or less dictate the engine to not move if they're on stop or hold position. It might require some tweaking though, if you insist on stop, but hold position is easy.

WC3 pathfinding: Non-cooperative pathfinding might be adequate for WC3, but then it has many less units, and the maps are very different as well. If what I read about SC2 is correct, and it will have even larger armies than SC:BW, then it would be a disaster!

Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it.


The thing with the zealots would be simple. As it is now, the engine creates the path not only from the unit being ordered to move, but it also tells other allied units to help out, pathing as a team. A simple fix would be, as you say, to just tell the engine not to mess with units on stop or hold.

As for the auto-surround: Yes, this is also possible to "fix". Of course you can make the pathfinder dumber, but it just seems so silly to me to do so. I believe modern games must find other ways to measure skill than by fighting the machine. Fix what already works because otherwise you'll never get anything better. Blizzard's challenge is to find the middle ground between the game being played in assembler and the game playing itself. I have faith that they can make an easy to learn, intuitive game that doesn't make me cry because my dragoons are steered by "special" protoss, but that is still impossible to master. Gaming joy without the chores of bending over backwards to make the computer understand what I want.

Edit: I also want the original Jim Raynor back. And I dun like teh medivac. Medics please, we still have roaches that can catfight forever (not even running out of mana) anyway.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
ShmotZ
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States581 Posts
November 13 2008 02:18 GMT
#137
On November 10 2008 06:25 PliX wrote:
Another minor complaint, I want the original Jim Raynor voiceactor back!

Will never forget what he said
"Howdy boys and girls, I am Jim Raynor, Marshall of these parts." I love him.



- yes i agree, i would be nice to have all the original voice actors back, but i think it might be to late =(.

- Update starcraft 2 website better please, as of now its kinda wasted space that looks really nice
Ah, computer dating. It's like pimping, but you rarely have to use the phrase "upside your head." - Bender
SilverskY
Profile Joined September 2008
Korea (South)3086 Posts
November 13 2008 17:54 GMT
#138
What's everyone's opinion on the new design of the Nomad? Kinda looks like a dark Arbiter.
Graphics
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5536 Posts
November 13 2008 19:35 GMT
#139
Yeah, it does. It actually looks even better than the Arbiter. I love it! ^^
Savio
Profile Joined April 2008
United States1850 Posts
November 16 2008 22:47 GMT
#140
On November 08 2008 12:05 dcttr66 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote:
Make Roach Melee

Explanation:

The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.

Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.

A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.


This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.

you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units


Your first statement is true. Zerglings are hurt by ranged units. But why would you say that roaches mixed with zerglings will draw the fire of ranged units? The zerglings will be closer to the enemy and targeted. Ultralisks are good at absorbing damage cause you can send them in with the lings but roaches will stand behind the lings and attack with their wimpy attack.

It is still a bad design for an attack absorbing unit.

Roaches will only successfully draw fire in the way you would like if they were part of an army with no melee units.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. – Winston Churchill
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