EPT[T] what could replace macro with MBS? - Page 8
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maybenexttime
Poland5674 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
I doubt thouse maches conclude anything expect that MBS didn´t change the game as much as Pathfinding and new gascost balance did. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 02 2008 06:02 maybenexttime wrote: He's saying that the huge skill difference would be WAY more apparent with SBS. At least as far as I can tell. | ||
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OakHill
United States168 Posts
Huge skilldifference? How would that happen, the game was new for all participants, Blizzard has already changed half the stuff in it by now. I doubt thouse maches conclude anything expect that MBS didn´t change the game as much as Pathfinding and new gascost balance did. No MBS or automining in SCII would make the game unplayable for anyone who does not have the mechanical skill acquired from playing SC: BW at this stage, and it would take them months to "catch" up to average SC: BW players. In comparison, better pathfinding and gas costs are just new aspects of a new game that the majority of players will easily be able to adapt to. On July 01 2008 20:01 maybenexttime wrote: SBS = chess MBS = checkers SBS = Starcraft MBS = Starcraft II | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
On July 02 2008 06:02 maybenexttime wrote: I cannot comprehend how is that such a good thing? I mean I do understand that having a bigger skill gap is better than having a smaller skill gap. But in the specific of interface optimization it comes with a cost (less popular game). And I still cannot understand why do you guys think that the skill gap difference is SO important to make up for the cost (which is big imo).He's saying that the huge skill difference would be WAY more apparent with SBS. At least as far as I can tell. Sometimes I think you guys just don't understand what the cost is. I believe most of you just underestimate the importance of new players to the e-sport community. It's really simple: more newbies -> more watchers -> more sponsors -> more money + better tournaments + better top players. And SBS reduces the amount of newbies. Which, despite of many of you think, is extremely BAD for the game as an e-sport. Yes, having a wider skill-gap is good. But having less newbies is bad. So you have to balance both sides. Is that little larger skill-gap offered by SBS so good it makes up for losing tons of spectators that attracts sponsors? Just think about it for a second. It's not like you're gonna lose to D- noobs because of MBS. Look at Naruto at the WWI, he pwned noobs because he is just better. Would it have mattered THAT much if the skill gap was a little bigger? He would have pwned those noobs anyway? A+ players aren't gonna lose to B players because of MBS. Savior wouldn't have beaten FBH if he had MBS. The best player still wins. Having a little wider skill-gap isn't that all important. But popularity is! Yea starcraft is big even with SBS, but it could be better. WoW is even bigger, how many guys try BW and say "bah this is too hard, I'm gonna play WoW?". Don't you wish BW was even bigger? Had more televised games out of korea? That you had a better chance winning a decent cash playing it? | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Even in SC we usually have 2 out of 3s and 3out of 5s to eliminate any element of luck and add a "Tournament factor" (you are likely to adjust your strategy after the 1st match) | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
While there are some games where the guy loses because he couldn't keep up with macro. There are also tons of games, at korean leagues. Where the guy loses because of bad strat, lacking micro or.. forgetting to upgrade adrenal glands ^^ How many pro-games would have had different results because of MBS? Would that screw the progaming scene? Now how many people would play SC2 instead of WoW because of MBS? Wouldn't that help everyone get a sponsor? | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
On July 02 2008 16:24 VIB wrote: I perfectly understand that. A simple macro misclick can screw a game and be the defining end result. Like I said, SBS does increases the skill gap, which is important. The that specific gap added by SBS is small. And there is a cost, popularity. Is the gap big enough to make up? While there are some games where the guy loses because he couldn't keep up with macro. There are also tons of games, at korean leagues. Where the guy loses because of bad strat, lacking micro or.. forgetting to upgrade adrenal glands ^^ How many pro-games would have had different results because of MBS? Would that screw the progaming scene? Now how many people would play SC2 instead of WoW because of MBS? Wouldn't that help everyone get a sponsor? ... how many times have you seen Zerg consuming Drones or Overlords because in the heat of the battle he couldn't macro properly? Why all Koreans in ZvT use Mutalisks to tech to Ultras and Defilers ASAP? + Show Spoiler + Last time I saw Lurkers before Mutas was when few days ago Hwasin made proxy Factory and landed in the corner of Jaedong's base so he had to make Den. edit: sorry looks like not only then but that's still only 2? Why is Boxer the most renown player in the world? | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 02 2008 15:18 OakHill wrote: No MBS or automining in SCII would make the game unplayable for anyone who does not have the mechanical skill acquired from playing SC: BW at this stage, and it would take them months to "catch" up to average SC: BW players. In comparison, better pathfinding and gas costs are just new aspects of a new game that the majority of players will easily be able to adapt to. people who arent as good at playing rts' wont be able to succeed as well as people who are good at playing rts'! oh the horror its not like war3 players are slow anyway, alot of them average close to 300 from what ive heard/seen. they just have to adapt it to a different type of gameplay (which is to be expected, they are switching games after all) | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
... how many times have you seen Zerg consuming Drones or Overlords because in the heat of the battle he couldn't macro properly? Those are all reasons why the skill gap is already so significant and the skill ceiling is so unreachable, that there will still be a significant gap after MBS :SWhy all Koreans use Mutalisks to tech to Ultras and Defilers ASAP? + Show Spoiler + Last time I saw Lurkers before Mutas was when few days ago Hwasin made proxy Factory and landed in the corner of Jaedong's base so he had to make Den. Why is Boxer the most renown player in the world? | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5674 Posts
I don't really care about MBS and conveniences it brings except for the diminished multi-tasking load. For all I care, they could set it to one building per hotkey, or make your screen center when you tab to different building to make macro require player's attention. The REAL NEWBIES wouldn't even notice that since they go back to their base REGARDLESS of MBS. ;; The skill gap hard mechanics bring is not just a bit wider than the MBS gap. It's huge. I don't want semi-pros & pros to end up at the same "level" like in WC3, I don't want INACTIVE players winning important events (Creolophus at WCG). "It's not like you're gonna lose to D- noobs because of MBS." Nice straw man there. It's about B+ magically becoming A- due to attention management and macro mechanics being far less of a factor. "Savior wouldn't have beaten FBH if he had MBS." Yes, because there would be NO SAVIOR AT ALL. In case you didn't notice, his hallmark was touch and go timing and attention management. He did everything at just the right time with perfect mutl-tasking. | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
On July 02 2008 18:10 maybenexttime wrote: VIB, the newbies didn't realize that MBS was lacking in CNC3, what makes you think they will, and especially that they'll care in case of SC2? I don't really care about MBS and conveniences it brings except for the diminished multi-tasking load. For all I care, they could set it to one building per hotkey, or make your screen center when you tab to different building to make macro require player's attention. The REAL NEWBIES wouldn't even notice that since they go back to their base REGARDLESS of MBS. ;; The skill gap hard mechanics bring is not just a bit wider than the MBS gap. It's huge. I don't want semi-pros & pros to end up at the same "level" like in WC3, I don't want INACTIVE players winning important events (Creolophus at WCG). "It's not like you're gonna lose to D- noobs because of MBS." Nice straw man there. It's about B+ magically becoming A- due to attention management and macro mechanics being far less of a factor. "Savior wouldn't have beaten FBH if he had MBS." Yes, because there would be NO SAVIOR AT ALL. In case you didn't notice, his hallmark was touch and go timing and attention management. He did everything at just the right time with perfect mutl-tasking. CnC3 has sort of MBS build in UI as you can switch between buildings without coming back to your base, small buttons and no hot keys to do so are the only problems. Btw there is no problem of skyrocketing resources as everything is paid for as it builds not in advance when queued in. Queues themselves aren't limited to 5 And talking about skill why Draco ended as 2nd in TSL? He was kind of inactive, he even stressed it by his nick? Because he spent 8 months training in Korea. And who beaten him? JF renown for his Reavers micro! | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On July 02 2008 18:10 maybenexttime wrote: VIB, the newbies didn't realize that MBS was lacking in CNC3, what makes you think they will, and especially that they'll care in case of SC2? However CNC3 had the next stage of UI enhancements, free queing. That means that you can put up a que of 99 units and you only pay for them as they build and not upfront making perfect macro almost imposible to not have. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:01 maybenexttime wrote: SBS = chess MBS = checkers You can't compare turn-based games with real-time games. No RTS is like chess. RTS are always more about player mechanics than game depth, and turn-based games are the direct opposite. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On July 02 2008 18:10 maybenexttime wrote: VIB, the newbies didn't realize that MBS was lacking in CNC3, what makes you think they will, and especially that they'll care in case of SC2? I don't really care about MBS and conveniences it brings except for the diminished multi-tasking load. For all I care, they could set it to one building per hotkey, or make your screen center when you tab to different building to make macro require player's attention. The REAL NEWBIES wouldn't even notice that since they go back to their base REGARDLESS of MBS. ;; The skill gap hard mechanics bring is not just a bit wider than the MBS gap. It's huge. I don't want semi-pros & pros to end up at the same "level" like in WC3, I don't want INACTIVE players winning important events (Creolophus at WCG). "It's not like you're gonna lose to D- noobs because of MBS." Nice straw man there. It's about B+ magically becoming A- due to attention management and macro mechanics being far less of a factor. "Savior wouldn't have beaten FBH if he had MBS." Yes, because there would be NO SAVIOR AT ALL. In case you didn't notice, his hallmark was touch and go timing and attention management. He did everything at just the right time with perfect mutl-tasking. Lets assume a worst case scenario where all these "skill equalizing" actually happend. The problem then would ba that the majority wouldn´t care! "Noobs" don´t care about professional gameplay but they DO care about gameplay which includes the UI. You know your C&C example doesn´t hold water, C&C is beyond MBS, MBS is already a compromise. So, explain it to me, how would SBS make the game better for ME, a "casual"? Why should a non-professional player support a control sceme that he doesn´t like? | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
On July 02 2008 23:56 Unentschieden wrote: So, explain it to me, how would SBS make the game better for ME, a "casual"? Why should a non-professional player support a control sceme that he doesn´t like? That line TBH is flame war attractive and better question is if people who played SC2 on WWI still say it should go after all, what should be added to gameplay to compromise for it? Draw attention enough outside base (in addition to cliffs and Colossus, etc)?? I read that for Dustin Browder, Zerg scaling cliffs as they are the only race that can't do it at all (beside Worms) is a possibility. + any other legitimate ideas? Brainstorming time IMO or we will end as scrubs/noobs. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On July 02 2008 23:56 Unentschieden wrote: Lets assume a worst case scenario where all these "skill equalizing" actually happend. The problem then would ba that the majority wouldn´t care! "Noobs" don´t care about professional gameplay but they DO care about gameplay which includes the UI. You know your C&C example doesn´t hold water, C&C is beyond MBS, MBS is already a compromise. So, explain it to me, how would SBS make the game better for ME, a "casual"? Why should a non-professional player support a control sceme that he doesn´t like? it makes it better for you by allowing it to support a professional scene which directly affects you by keeping the game alive with new players coming into the scene and encouraging people to provide new features, programs, and tournaments for you to enjoy. also indirectly affects you by providing the added fun of watching progaming and everything for spectators that follows with the progaming scene, you can claim you dont enjoy that but most people do. do you see spectators arguing that soccer players should be allowed to use their hands? | ||
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MrRammstein
Poland339 Posts
On July 03 2008 01:37 IdrA wrote: it makes it better for you by allowing it to support a professional scene which directly affects you by keeping the game alive with new players coming into the scene and encouraging people to provide new features, programs, and tournaments for you to enjoy. also indirectly affects you by providing the added fun of watching progaming and everything for spectators that follows with the progaming scene, you can claim you dont enjoy that but most people do. do you see spectators arguing that soccer players should be allowed to use their hands? I don't want to defend MBS here but Unentschieden meant there are no live spectators outside Korea, not in the meaning of live shows and growing fan base. Frozen Arbiter highlighted that with his Automated tournaments and Paying2Play thread. I don't know how many people watch GomTV Live but uploaded videos very slowly reach 10 000 views and rather don't go much more than that, unless some finals that got 20 000 - 30 000 over time. Even in Korea there were some small signals it starts fading away If SC2 won't be user-friendly as Blizzard aims now it will end up like W3 - some niche game not many people get what is it about so much and what's more even harder to play with all those new things in. edit: about GomTV and commentated games at all I know GomTV is 1 source of VODs and for example Team Liquid another and as I read on Wikipedia KlazzartSC is the most viewed You Tube user from/in? Iceland  but that's still scattered fan base, no business, occasional Lan parties and WCG only once in a year? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 01 2008 10:50 VIB wrote: PWNED! Told you guys to at least wait till you play it instead of panicking! Oh The sweat taste of victory  Well, I've been in the "wait until beta" camp for like what, 1 year almost (I guess since autumn 2007)? As for MBS, in theory I like this idea a lot more but most of the people from WWI have still expressed concern over MBS so it's not like the debate is over just because I like it (in theory). | ||
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