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On March 15 2008 04:18 SoleSteeler wrote:
The fact that any army without a queen pretty much sucks... or if it's balanced around not having a queen, then they're very overpowered. Look at all the abilities you listed... right now she fills a very specific role, you want to turn her into a true super unit. Aka a hero. The "one unit limit" means absolutely nothing. Having XP isn't the only thing that makes a unit a hero.
The abilities are not some more than regular defiler, templar or science vessel has.
Question you need to ask yourself is :
Does Zerg army suck witout defiler, Toss army without templar, Terran army without Vessel?
10 supply is an investment you can have 2+ ultras for that or rather a support queen if your army is large enough.
Web ability is a defence compensation for mutas.
Consume is there so you can cast web more times, but sacrifice your units.
Mutate is defence breaker, and can be used from ling(power fighter which could die, since it is low on hp) to ultra(20 second power tank).
It would not deal significant damage over time so alone it wouldn't stand chance and most units would catch her up.
The Aura doesn't mean it's like +50% damage or +3 armor, it would be like +1 +1 or something...
By your definition is mothership a hero?
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I don't think the mothership is a hero, no. But we also don't know what her current abilities are, and how potent they are.
My point is, the fact that you can only have "one" of a specific unit doesn't make it a "hero". Especially if we're thinking of War3 heroes (which is where everyone sees a problem). I don't know why you're so against only being able to have one unit. Especially if it's not as powerful as what a hero is in War3; the queen, if you watch the videos, is easily countered. Like others have said, it's more of a mobile building.
I suppose you're right that current defilers/templar/vessels also have strong abilities, but I think your suggestions would be better off on a different unit. I like the current concept of the queen, and don't feel it should be changed to what you said, is all I mean.
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I very much dislike the Queen in her current form. The fact that I can only have one is Blizzard basically saying you HAVE to pick this unit, upgrade it, and keep it alive to not be at a big disadvantage. It's so not Zerg to me...
It's DoW all over again... 
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So its not Zerg to have a Queen unit guarding the Hive? Yknow, despite half the storyline involving Kerrigan, Queen of Blades defending and ruling the Hive clusters.
And yeah, you basically have to get it for the defense structures and support spells, just like you basically have to pick the drones to mine minerals and basically pick the spawning pool to jumpstart your army. Basically.
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On March 17 2008 05:14 ggfobster wrote:I very much dislike the Queen in her current form. The fact that I can only have one is Blizzard basically saying you HAVE to pick this unit, upgrade it, and keep it alive to not be at a big disadvantage. It's so not Zerg to me... It's DoW all over again...
Your post holds a lot of credit - a player shouldn't be FORCED to get ANY specific unit beside the drone/overlord.
Forcing build orders/unit choices is never a good start. Modern RTSes tend to get cookie-cutter enough on their own..
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Useless, in that case you'd be looking at the queen as some sort of defensive constructor, which I suppose would be fine. But do we know the prerequisite for the Queen? If it comes straight from the Hatchery without any tech buildings required, then that'd be alright I guess - but if it requires you to follow a specific tech tree then that's really not a good way to go.
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On March 17 2008 05:34 useLess wrote:
So its not Zerg to have a Queen unit guarding the Hive? Yknow, despite half the storyline involving Kerrigan, Queen of Blades defending and ruling the Hive clusters.
And yeah, you basically have to get it for the defense structures and support spells, just like you basically have to pick the drones to mine minerals and basically pick the spawning pool to jumpstart your army. Basically.
SC lore =|= SC multiplayer, and the emphasis is not on basically, it's on ONE.
Basically, if I want to mass Queens at my own peril, I should be able to.
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On March 15 2008 00:32 Klockan3 wrote:
And yes starcraft borrowed everything it has from the wc series, it just updates them a bit. It expanded faction diversity and unit diversity, made ranged and flyers more powerfull and weakened casters, and retooled the economy.
However aside from starcraft being much better, having 3 sides instead of practically 1, a bit deeper eco and in space its basically the same game as warcraft 2.
For a perfect example of something it borrowed from the wc series, it took mana bars and casters, the construction system, the economy model with a few adjustments(But no more than your so called hero changes), it took floating flyers since all other games have flyers who are forced to constantly move, it took suicide units and the uppgrade system.
Blizzard could just have taken the whole starcraft game, redid the models to orcs, elves, gold patches, iron mines and voila they would have warcraft 3.
I pray most of this post was sarcasm (but I doubt it):
Warcraft 2 had the deeper Eco then SC...
War2 had fucking Gold, Lumber, and Oil....
SC? Minerals and Gas...hmm...What's deeper? More options or less...
Mana bars? Casters? Construction? You call that taking from WC? Have you played other RTS games? Contruction, "mana" bars, and units that use "mana" aren't exclusive to WarCraft and StarCraft universes. I think Red Alert (maybe it came out later, I dunno or care) had helicopters, please correct me if I'm wrong. Iron mines? War3 uses Iron?
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Ban yourself plz? (Msg a mod and request a self ban.)
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On March 15 2008 02:57 GoSuPlAyEr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2008 02:33 LastWish wrote:
I like the idea queen to be upgradable as hatchery->lair->hive + gaining abilities (It's no hero it's just an upgradable unit)
But it shouldn't be limited to 1 (neighter mothership should but I can't think of how to do it for mothership right now)
For queen It should be like 10 supply cost and a lot of starting gas (I don't like that it cost only mins now it should be more like 100 100, so gas and supply limits it).
You can make as many as you want but the upgrades to higher queen levels would be costy and they would have an very supporting AOE aura, so you would max bother to have a few - 1 with each army.
Abilities it should have :
- It should be faster, but when moving out of creep it's HP will dramatically fall per sec.
- As you upgrade it it would gain a lot more hp so the former would became less significant.
- It should have "web" ability from w3 crypt fiend, to help fight off air units with ground units.
- Only queen should have consume ability.
- AOE aura, bonus %damage, hp regen, armor, lifesteal? (queen lvl dependand)
- Unit it attack should be infested and after death, hatch broodlings from corpse.
- Mutate spell, which would turn targeted unit into monster (+a lot dmg, taking amost no dmg(defensive matrix), + some speed&movement) but will die within 20 seconds(5% hp loss per sec).
- I would probably remove the deep-tunnel ability, since you could buy more of them and would - depend if you have it back home or in combat somewhere else.
was this a joke post? this sounds exactly like a hero except you can build as many as you want
I was thinking that too...
Plz no Aura's...Did BW have any Auras?
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Have you guys seen the gameplay video with a BO3 between zerg and toss? The queen is most definently not a hero, it get's owned by 3 zealots at it's first level (and I mean owned, not just defeated).
I think it's main benefit early on is that you don't have to sacrifice drones to build defense anymore. It's certainly not going to be used offensivly, it got owned very quickly most of the time and it's really slow.
It's the zergs version of both mobile defense and constructor of static defense. I think it's pretty cool.
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Yeah I saw that video... Colossus looked incredibly strong, when it went behind the minerals and owned a shit load of drones.
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imo the queen, the mothership and all the new ingenious casters are special units that bring a complexity to the game that sc1 was lacking.
And so , I aprove of the queens uniqueness.
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On March 17 2008 06:33 Famehunter wrote:
imo the queen, the mothership and all the new ingenious casters are special units that bring a complexity to the game that sc1 was lacking.
And so , I aprove of the queens uniqueness.
I think that sc1's simplicity was what made the game special, unique, and interesting
not saying I disaprove of the queen, just saying that things like items and heroes and mercinaries make an rts suck :/ (in sum, I hate war3 :/)
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On March 17 2008 05:57 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2008 00:32 Klockan3 wrote:
And yes starcraft borrowed everything it has from the wc series, it just updates them a bit. It expanded faction diversity and unit diversity, made ranged and flyers more powerfull and weakened casters, and retooled the economy.
However aside from starcraft being much better, having 3 sides instead of practically 1, a bit deeper eco and in space its basically the same game as warcraft 2.
For a perfect example of something it borrowed from the wc series, it took mana bars and casters, the construction system, the economy model with a few adjustments(But no more than your so called hero changes), it took floating flyers since all other games have flyers who are forced to constantly move, it took suicide units and the uppgrade system.
Blizzard could just have taken the whole starcraft game, redid the models to orcs, elves, gold patches, iron mines and voila they would have warcraft 3. I pray most of this post was sarcasm (but I doubt it): Warcraft 2 had the deeper Eco then SC... War2 had fucking Gold, Lumber, and Oil.... SC? Minerals and Gas...hmm...What's deeper? More options or less...
The depth of the economy of games does not come from the number of resources you dimwitt, sounds like you have no clue about these games at all. Starcraft had an deeper eco since gas collection speed is extremely limited while lumber is unlimited, gold collection speed was basically unlimited and exactly the same at all mines while minerals have different caps at different expos. And oil is just a gimmick for naval units, doesn't effect the landgame or air game at all.
Mana bars? Casters? Construction? You call that taking from WC? Have you played other RTS games?
Yes in fact i have, warcraft invented mana bars, no other game besides warcrat 1-2 have had anything like manabars untill starcraft came. Copters didn't have manabars but instead had limited ammunitions wich is nothing like manabars, just forces them to rearm at the helipad after every attack run. warcraft 2 were the first game using workers to build structures, it wasn't the only game since every other rts copied but starcraft also copied it.
HOWEVER, warcraft 3 is surely not the only RTS to use heroes, experience, 3d and so on? So really starcraft 2 wouldn't be copying from warcraft 3 if it used heroes since heroes is such a standard implementation today? Have you played other RTS, how many of them can you name wich doesn't have one of a kind units and is not older than 5 years? I can name, cnc generals, cnc3, RA2, supcom, dow, coh, rol. Hmm, i cant really think of one game wich diedn't have one of a kind hero like units...
Iron mines? War3 uses Iron?
I said iron mines just to fit the warcraft fantasy theme... And i didnt mean warcraft 3 as in the current warcraft 3, but instead warcraft 3 as in the would be warcraft 3 if Blizzard released warcraft 3 instead of starcraft at that time. If they just took the whole starcraft game and redid the models it would be exactly like a better variant of warcraft 2 with a few tweaks, that was the point.
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On March 17 2008 06:15 SoleSteeler wrote:
Yeah I saw that video... Colossus looked incredibly strong, when it went behind the minerals and owned a shit load of drones.
Reaver looks incredibly strong when it goes behind the minerals and owns shitloads of drones too. 
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Well, testers call the Colossus "extremely strong", and 4 collossi quite unstoppable by ground. 
@Klockan3 : +1. It's a no brainer that SC took the whole crat-like mecanic and feeling. Wouldn't you know blizzard you could flag all the craft game as being a sole family nonetheless. Today this fact is thruer than ever, with stationnary flying unit, mutilevelled flat maps and others Blizzardish stuff being quite inexistant in current proeminent rts.
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On March 17 2008 05:38 GinNtoniC wrote:
Useless, in that case you'd be looking at the queen as some sort of defensive constructor, which I suppose would be fine. But do we know the prerequisite for the Queen? If it comes straight from the Hatchery without any tech buildings required, then that'd be alright I guess - but if it requires you to follow a specific tech tree then that's really not a good way to go.
From the people who have played it so far, Spawning Pool and necessary resources are its only prereqs.
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On March 17 2008 06:44 Klockan3 wrote:The depth of the economy of games does not come from the number of resources you dimwitt, sounds like you have no clue about these games at all. Starcraft had an deeper eco since gas collection speed is extremely limited while lumber is unlimited, gold collection speed was basically unlimited and exactly the same at all mines while minerals have different caps at different expos. And oil is just a gimmick for naval units, doesn't effect the landgame or air game at all. Show nested quote +
Mana bars? Casters? Construction? You call that taking from WC? Have you played other RTS games?
Yes in fact i have, warcraft invented mana bars, no other game besides warcrat 1-2 have had anything like manabars untill starcraft came. Copters didn't have manabars but instead had limited ammunitions wich is nothing like manabars, just forces them to rearm at the helipad after every attack run. warcraft 2 were the first game using workers to build structures, it wasn't the only game since every other rts copied but starcraft also copied it. HOWEVER, warcraft 3 is surely not the only RTS to use heroes, experience, 3d and so on? So really starcraft 2 wouldn't be copying from warcraft 3 if it used heroes since heroes is such a standard implementation today? Have you played other RTS, how many of them can you name wich doesn't have one of a kind units and is not older than 5 years? I can name, cnc generals, cnc3, RA2, supcom, dow, coh, rol. Hmm, i cant really think of one game wich diedn't have one of a kind hero like units... I said iron mines just to fit the warcraft fantasy theme... And i didnt mean warcraft 3 as in the current warcraft 3, but instead warcraft 3 as in the would be warcraft 3 if Blizzard released warcraft 3 instead of starcraft at that time. If they just took the whole starcraft game and redid the models it would be exactly like a better variant of warcraft 2 with a few tweaks, that was the point.
Ok...I don't think I resorted to name calling, but I did insult your knowledge of RTS games. Which I was correct. War 2 all mines didn't have the same amount of gold. Calling oil a gimmick to get out of it still being a use. (WarCraft 2: Tides of Darkness anyone?) I believe naval warfare was a part of the game.
So...If they run out of ammo in the choppers...it isn't just like if you run out of mana with your warlock?
And you said it wouldn't be copying war3 if it used heroes...Now...I'm not going to argue that it wouldn't be copying, CONSIDERING SC had it's own "Hero" units, but with that said, not one of SC's hero units gained experience. I support the "hero" units, one of a kind, IN single player. It's just wrong in multi.
Generals has one of a kind hero units? (Also, I like StarCraft and WarCraft(s) BECAUSE no super weapons...) (Also, Generals, RA2, Supreme Commander, are 5+ years old...So you didn't do a good job naming all that much)
I really can't believe you are comparing StarCraft to WarCraft 2 like they are the same. Each race in SC plays nothing like EITHER WarCraft 2 races. Not one....They REDID EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME when they realized it had a WarCraft feel to it. That is SPECIFICALLY why Artanis has the line in the game, "This isn't warcraft in space." -_-
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On March 11 2008 22:27 Vaanelo wrote:
the queen is alright, but the idea of 1 unit only is wrong, stop burrowing shit from wc3 and implement it in sc2. ive notice huge number of copying of wc3 shit and adding them into sc2... So they should ignore any good ideas they had with WC3? Are you kidding me?
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I think the queen should live up to its name....
make it be able to reproduce maybe....?
imagine it cloning other units; that would be scary =x
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EPT
