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On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:Show nested quote +To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation.
Yeah, that is what irked me a lot about the elite from the KeSPA period. When Serral finished school and exploded, he was 20 years old. Many of the hot shots from 2012-2016 were in their mid twenties like INno, Zest, PartinG, soO, sOs, but even the stars from WoL like Mvp, MarineKing, MC etc. in 2018. The same age Serral is now - yet he still shows an over 83% win rate versus the top Koreans in 2025. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up.
SC2 is pretty unique in the sense that experience can make up for godlike micro-skills that will probably fade away more, the older a player gets (it will be interesting to see Reynor and Clem developing in the future because of that). This is one of the reasons, why it is so hard for young players to get into the scene. Experience and game understanding are a large part of winning. Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill, especially as their win rates versus foreigners not named Serral were unaffected.
Another interesting angle for the GOAT debate: If the skill level truly deteriorated and Serral had it "easier" (just for the record: which I don't believe as the data suggests otherwise), wouldn't that reflect more on those early players in a GOAT context? Or on the other GOAT contenders that weren't able to "exploit" these alleged easier circumstances the way Serral did and who also had the most success during the same time as him?
In my opinion, no matter how you flip this argument, it doesn't weaken Serral's claim, as all others are affected by it as well.
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On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up.
Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s?
Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive.
In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them.
Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill
It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you. You can also see it in many pros changing their playstyle as they get older to a mechanically less intense style.
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On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s? Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive. In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them.
Yeah, but is that because the skill of existing players deteriorated or because it is so high, that the entrance level for younger players is insurmountable?
Classic beat Clem... he beat Reynor. Same for herO. I mean... can you explain why players like YoungYakov or Krystianer are not able to replicate what Serral did back then, if the skill level is supposedly so bad? The age difference is roughly the same...
On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you.
Yes. Hence I wrote: Microskills deteriorate... but is substituted by experience. The level of game is not only about playing fast, which I replied to you in several threads 
Haven't we already agreed upon that if INno didn't lose 2 or 3% win rate because he was a little bit slower, he'd still be behind prime Serral? And that Serral would have probably be the best if all players met in their prime?
Why do we need to go over the same arguments, that have been addressed in the dozens, again and again?
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On November 02 2025 18:56 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s? Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive. In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them. Yeah, but is that because the skill deteriorated or because it is so high, that the entrance level for younger players is insurmountable? Classic beat Clem... he beat Reynor. Same for herO. I mean... can you explain why players like YoungYakov or Krystianer are not able to replicate what Serral did back then, if the skill level is supposedly so bad? Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you. Yes. Hence I wrote: Microskills deteriorate... but is substituted by experience. The level of game is not only about playing fast, which I replied to you in several threads
I agree that it's not only about speed, but regardless it means that the younger players are at an advantage compared to the older players. Especially when looking at Serral who is perfect at decision-making, so you can only really beat him consistently is by mechanically outmuscling him which only Clem can do.
I hope your example of YoungYakov is not serious, of course all younger players aren't suddenly better than all older players.
Haven't we already agreed upon that if INno didn't lose 2 or 3% win rate because he was a little bit slower, he'd still be behind prime Serral? And that Serral would have probably be the best if all players met in their prime?
Well, you dismissed the significance of the aging scene which I couldn't let stand like that.
Yes I agree that Serral would probably be the best in any era even if by a much smaller degree, but hypothetical achievements are different than real achievements.
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On November 02 2025 19:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:56 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s? Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive. In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them. Yeah, but is that because the skill deteriorated or because it is so high, that the entrance level for younger players is insurmountable? Classic beat Clem... he beat Reynor. Same for herO. I mean... can you explain why players like YoungYakov or Krystianer are not able to replicate what Serral did back then, if the skill level is supposedly so bad? On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you. Yes. Hence I wrote: Microskills deteriorate... but is substituted by experience. The level of game is not only about playing fast, which I replied to you in several threads I agree that it's not only about speed, but regardless it means that the younger players are at an advantage compared to the older players. Especially when looking at Serral who is perfect at decision-making, so you can only really beat him consistently is by mechanically outmuscling him which only Clem can do. I hope your example of YoungYakov is not serious, of course all younger players aren't suddenly better than all older players.
But that was true back then as well... Why was Serral the only one to challenge them and beat them in 85% plus win rates? Isn't that the crux of this discussion? That he was able to do so and no one else?
You are writing it yourself: "Especially when looking at Serral...".
I completely agree that these players were not in their extreme prime.
My contention is with the idea that the exodus made Korean players considerably weaker as their win rates versus other foreigners were unaffected. They still beat others consistently and were the absolute top notch of the game.
EDIT: Of course the YY example is an exaggeration. But the point stands: If age is such a skill decreasing factor that Serral was able to beat everyone at 85% win rates, why doesn't anyone do the same to the now even older players and the ones like Serral and Maru who are at the age that the others were at, when Serral started beating them?
On November 02 2025 19:02 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +Haven't we already agreed upon that if INno didn't lose 2 or 3% win rate because he was a little bit slower, he'd still be behind prime Serral? And that Serral would have probably be the best if all players met in their prime?
Well, you dismissed the significance of the aging scene which I couldn't stand like that. Yes I agree that Serral would probably be the best in any era even if by a much smaller degree, but hypothetical achievements are different than real achievements.
I dismissed the idea that Koreans got weaker because of the Exodus. Of course age affects skill... but in SC2 that deterioration can be substituted. There was a thread once, where a guy showed a study how age affects reaction speed... of course, it does. But the numbers I presented did not indicate much of an influence on several levels (win rates versus other foreigners, win rates versus newer players).
And yes, I agree... real achievements are way better than hypothetical ones. I don't really like hypothetical... but the hypothetical only needed to be deployed because Serral's achievements were downplayed without ever looking at the reverse (KeSPA period players not having to face him and others like Dark or Maru in their prime).
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On November 02 2025 18:56 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s? Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive. In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them. Yeah, but is that because the skill of existing players deteriorated or because it is so high, that the entrance level for younger players is insurmountable? Classic beat Clem... he beat Reynor. Same for herO. I mean... can you explain why players like YoungYakov or Krystianer are not able to replicate what Serral did back then, if the skill level is supposedly so bad? Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you. Yes. Hence I wrote: Microskills deteriorate... but is substituted by experience. The level of game is not only about playing fast, which I replied to you in several threads
I think broadly esports has always exaggerated the decline that happens in skills as players age tbh.
In SC there's a real legacy of korean team houses grinding kids at young ages inducing burnout and injury and players just naturally were less able to keep going in their mid 20s. I don't discount the players views, but I think there's a bit of confirmation bias happening. Since the global esports money infusion (and perhaps a bit more of a move towards wellness and self care and not just gamer degeneracy) we see that across basically all the top genres there are players playing at top levels into their late 20s and 30s now.
I don't think the current SC generation would be completely obsolete if there had been more young talent, though I imagine we might have one or two more Clems for Serral to try keep up with. The main thing with a lack of new competitive talent is that it enshrines hierarchies in a way we didn't have in the old days
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On November 02 2025 19:17 Asha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 18:56 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. Keeping up with whom? Other players that are in their late 20s/30s? Fact is there aren't any up and coming players competing for their spots so of course they're still competitive. In an environment where there would be constant up- and coming players it's extremely likely they would've been replaced long ago as it happened in BW and early sc2. But the last generation of talents obviously can keep winning forever because there's nobody to replace them. Yeah, but is that because the skill of existing players deteriorated or because it is so high, that the entrance level for younger players is insurmountable? Classic beat Clem... he beat Reynor. Same for herO. I mean... can you explain why players like YoungYakov or Krystianer are not able to replicate what Serral did back then, if the skill level is supposedly so bad? On November 02 2025 18:54 Charoisaur wrote:Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill It's literally what top pros say. Dark and Inno for example said they felt they were getting slower with increased age. I trust them over you. Yes. Hence I wrote: Microskills deteriorate... but is substituted by experience. The level of game is not only about playing fast, which I replied to you in several threads I think broadly esports has always exaggerated the decline that happens in skills as players age tbh. In SC there's a real legacy of korean team houses grinding kids at young ages inducing burnout and injury and players just naturally were less able to keep going in their mid 20s. I don't discount the players views, but I think there's a bit of confirmation bias happening. Since the global esports money infusion (and perhaps a bit more of a move towards wellness and self care and not just gamer degeneracy) we see that across basically all the top genres there are players playing at top levels into their late 20s and 30s now. I don't think the current SC generation would be completely obsolete if there had been more young talent, though I imagine we might have one or two more Clems for Serral to try keep up with. The main thing with a lack of new competitive talent is that it enshrines hierarchies in a way we didn't have in the old days
Agreed.
Although I am not too sure about another elite like Clem/Reynor/MaxPax.
In the age cohort of mid to late 20s, we don't have much else besides Maru and Serral, the two biggest outliers in the history of the game (perhaps Oliveira, but he is yet another 2 years younger than Serral).
After them came Reynor, MaxPax and Clem who are in their early 20s now. All others, including Dark, herO and Classic are already in their 30s or way above.
So in terms of turnover rate of new elite players, things are pretty stable. Would we have more young talent, if the game was bigger? Probably. But reaching the top and staying there, is incredibly difficult in SC2 and even in the prime era you had at most 3 or 4 top dogs. There were more challengers below that level for sure, but in terms of super elite, who consistently won more than the rest of the bunch, the number of players stayed roughly the same.
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I agree that it's not only about speed, but regardless it means that the younger players are at an advantage compared to the older players. Especially when looking at Serral who is perfect at decision-making, so you can only really beat him consistently is by mechanically outmuscling him which only Clem can do.
Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding things, but aren't you simultaneously arguing that
1. Serral had an advantage on the Korean cohort he overtook based on his age (even if that age difference is merely a year or two)
2. Serral had an advantage of every player that came after him, conveniently also based on his age, which in the reverse now means that noone can possibly accumulate the experience required to beat him
?
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On November 02 2025 18:06 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2025 16:42 Admiral Yang wrote:To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you feel there's simply no threshold at which the fulltime pro player pool has diminished too much to consider achievements to be meaningful in a GOAT convo, which would be strange That's the issue here. This argument would certainly be relevant for someone like Maxpax who never played the supposed competitive elite, but Serral is a mere six years younger than MVP, who is the same age as Classic. Every single one of the 11 players on the Mizenhauer list is of an age where it would be perfectly possible to still be an elite player. Whether they left because they lacked the skill or the motivation or had bad luck with injury, the fact of the matter is that they were booted from the elite at a time when age really wasn't an excuse, which is obviously disqualifying in a GOAT-conversation. Yeah, that is what irked me a lot about the elite from the KeSPA period. When Serral finished school and exploded, he was 20 years old. Many of the hot shots from 2012-2016 were in their mid twenties like INno, Zest, PartinG, soO, sOs, but even the stars from WoL like Mvp, MarineKing, MC etc. in 2018. The same age Serral is now - yet he still shows an over 83% win rate versus the top Koreans in 2025. And players way above their 30th birthday like herO and Classic are still keeping up. SC2 is pretty unique in the sense that experience can make up for godlike micro-skills that will probably fade away more, the older a player gets (it will be interesting to see Reynor and Clem developing in the future because of that). This is one of the reasons, why it is so hard for young players to get into the scene. Experience and game understanding are a large part of winning. Hence, I never bought this deterioration argument... it simply didn't make sense for players to collectively lose skill, especially as their win rates versus foreigners not named Serral were unaffected. Another interesting angle for the GOAT debate: If the skill level truly deteriorated and Serral had it "easier" (just for the record: which I don't believe as the data suggests otherwise), wouldn't that reflect more on those early players in a GOAT context? Or on the other GOAT contenders that weren't able to "exploit" these alleged easier circumstances the way Serral did and who also had the most success during the same time as him? In my opinion, no matter how you flip this argument, it doesn't weaken Serral's claim, as all others are affected by it as well.
If we are going to factor in aging to discredit Serral dominance than we should be consistent across the board.
The kespa players only started winning cause the OG WOL players were getting old and tired such as MC, Nestea etc.
Maru only become relevant in 2018 after majority of the kespa players got old and had to go to military
Serral basically takes a dump on Maru every time they go head to head. Cant use Maru getting old as an excuse since Serral and Maru are literally the same age and came to power at the same time in 2018.
Forwarded 7 years, Serral is basically still at the top of the mountain and the favourite in every tournament. Championship or bust.
Whereas Maru has a list of recycle excuses every time he loses.
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Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism.
Well that’s… a take.
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On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism.
Uh oh, I'm half-asian and half-white, so the glaze factor for me is only at a .50x strength (repeating, of course), yet I still think Serral is pretty awesome. I shudder to think how fully white dudes must feel.
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On November 03 2025 12:59 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism. Uh oh, I'm half-asian and half-white, so the glaze factor for me is only at a .50x strength (repeating, of course), yet I still think Serral is pretty awesome. I shudder to think how fully white dudes must feel.
I’m afraid I might be in real danger here - as a fully white guy, I just looked at a picture of Serral and almost started levitating. If this goes on, I might spontaneously begin defending Finnish drone timings on reddit threads from 2018. Please send help (or at least a Zerg nerf).
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On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism.
Joined TL.net Monday, 27th of October 2025
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On November 03 2025 09:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism. Well that’s… a take.
Here is the thing: during Kespa, 12 hour a day 7 days a week was the absolute norm for both a and b-teamers. No white dude was willing to do that.
So how many people active now actually play more than 8 hours a day? There have been koreans not even playing for months or laddering at all going into EWC.
Now with the uncertainty of EWC and that without saudi money, the prize pool would barely be able to finance 2 dudes full time, how many people are actually willing to put in the numbers for the magic of lifting a trophy of a, maybe, tournament in the 'highly prestigious' saudi tournament?
At least BW streamers make money with streaming more than ever.
You cannot seriously dismiss a sc2 scene on life support and yet believe that serral would thrive during kespa days. He would go down like any other foreigner before him. Serral, Reynor and Clem are nothing special. They just are playing sc2 during an era where nobody cares about it anymore.
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United States1951 Posts
On November 03 2025 17:44 doktordingerdonger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2025 09:05 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism. Well that’s… a take. Here is the thing: during Kespa, 12 hour a day 7 days a week was the absolute norm for both a and b-teamers. No white dude was willing to do that. So how many people active now actually play more than 8 hours a day? There have been koreans not even playing for months or laddering at all going into EWC. Now with the uncertainty of EWC and that without saudi money, the prize pool would barely be able to finance 2 dudes full time, how many people are actually willing to put in the numbers for the magic of lifting a trophy of a, maybe, tournament in the 'highly prestigious' saudi tournament? At least BW streamers make money with streaming more than ever. You cannot seriously dismiss a sc2 scene on life support and yet believe that serral would thrive during kespa days. He would go down like any other foreigner before him. Serral, Reynor and Clem are nothing special. They just are playing sc2 during an era where nobody cares about it anymore.
Poor special. He played in the 8 team house for almost half a year and people like you forget.
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On November 03 2025 17:44 doktordingerdonger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2025 09:05 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism. Well that’s… a take. Here is the thing: during Kespa, 12 hour a day 7 days a week was the absolute norm for both a and b-teamers. No white dude was willing to do that. So how many people active now actually play more than 8 hours a day? There have been koreans not even playing for months or laddering at all going into EWC. Now with the uncertainty of EWC and that without saudi money, the prize pool would barely be able to finance 2 dudes full time, how many people are actually willing to put in the numbers for the magic of lifting a trophy of a, maybe, tournament in the 'highly prestigious' saudi tournament? At least BW streamers make money with streaming more than ever. You cannot seriously dismiss a sc2 scene on life support and yet believe that serral would thrive during kespa days. He would go down like any other foreigner before him. Serral, Reynor and Clem are nothing special. They just are playing sc2 during an era where nobody cares about it anymore.
Damn, I didn't know that!! How good were these Europeans to not let MC and MMA out of a group stage at HSC VI without such harsh schedules?
Or someone like MaNa who is still around after battling these two legends.
But that explains why Koreans fell off so hard nowadays... without their Team Houses and 12 hours work days, they simply aren't good enough to keep up with the rest of the world. Tragic stuff. Thanks for letting us know!
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United States33678 Posts
On November 03 2025 17:44 doktordingerdonger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2025 09:05 WombaT wrote:On November 03 2025 08:50 doktordingerdonger wrote:
Serral would not be top 100 in 2014 with that level of competition, or if the level of competition be the same in 2025 as in 2014.
Serral would not make it into a KESPA team not even as a dishwasher.
If Serral was Korean, his achievements would be completely dismissed given the complete collapse of the scene post-2015. Because he is white, the complete collapse of the scene post-2015 is instead dismissed entirely by 90% of white dudes here. SC2 avg viewership is 1k. That is not a scene, that is a niche.
The whole glaze of Serral just reeks of ethnonationalism. Well that’s… a take. Here is the thing: during Kespa, 12 hour a day 7 days a week was the absolute norm for both a and b-teamers. No white dude was willing to do that. So how many people active now actually play more than 8 hours a day? There have been koreans not even playing for months or laddering at all going into EWC. Now with the uncertainty of EWC and that without saudi money, the prize pool would barely be able to finance 2 dudes full time, how many people are actually willing to put in the numbers for the magic of lifting a trophy of a, maybe, tournament in the 'highly prestigious' saudi tournament? At least BW streamers make money with streaming more than ever. You cannot seriously dismiss a sc2 scene on life support and yet believe that serral would thrive during kespa days. He would go down like any other foreigner before him. Serral, Reynor and Clem are nothing special. They just are playing sc2 during an era where nobody cares about it anymore.
While regimented KeSPA practice was definitely an advantage, I think you're somewhat overrating it compared to the general talent-scouting advantage that the institution of Korean esports has. Korea's edge in global esports (at least games it's popular in) is that it has a big player base combined with the best and most realistic path-to-pro ecosystem in the entire world (relatively speaking; it's still obviously very hard to become a successful pro). This leads to Korea being the best at discovering great talents, and then pushing them along a semi-pro/pro path.
When you consider Serral's crazy level of natural ability, I feel like a TaeJa-esque career is a realistic low-end outcome if you dropped him into 2014, with the potential for a lot more upside (I don't know if he would dominate, but he could be a championship level player).
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I actually don't know how much natural ability serral has, but I think he might be the most professional player we've had.
What makes serral, clem, reynor, time and maru special is that they've grown up with the game. Much like TY, they're just bound to blast off at some point. But age is honestly such a huge factor.
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Northern Ireland27265 Posts
Serral is basically flawless mechanically, a few may have an edge over him, but he’s also probably the best reader of the game and has the best starsense in that regard we’ve maybe ever seen, at least defensively.
It’s a pretty potent combination. Never mind his mentality.
Agreed with Wax basically on everything he said.
I think people are asking the wrong questions sometimes. The collapse of the Korean scene as we knew it basically halted the pipeline of gifted amateur to pro.
Serral is just outright better than most of the best of the Kespa era, but given how quick the turnover is, he’s almost the ‘next generation’.
However he’s not competing against the Korean Serral equivalents, he’s largely competing against those established prior.
It’s not a purely systemic thing either, who knows what it is? Serral, Reynor and Clem are easily the best 3 foreign players we’ve seen mechanically.
But there’s also not many signs of any next foreign generation of remotely their calibre gestating either
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EPT
