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angry_maia
331 Posts
1. nerf disruptor because disruptor is rng/annoying/oppressive. 2. toss uses storm now 3. nerf strom and buff disruptor?!?! like what are we going to do, just keep going in circles? as everyone keeps pointing out, storm was never the reason P ever got imbalanced, and it's been around forever. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
I'd rather Disruptors were But I really don't like Disruptors. | ||
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Moonerz
United States461 Posts
You add that to 2 base roach ravager into lose and zerg will have quite the strategic diversity in BoXs  | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
I agree with Scarlett that the Spire change is potentially a really big deal. If I recall correctly, the Spire was nerfed repeatedly and massively in terms of build time, cost, etc all the way back in the WoL Beta when Mutas were arguably OP; they haven't been for a long time. Just in general, tech-switching used to be a huge part of Zerg identity (and still is to a degree), so just making it easier to tech-switch into Mutas, Corruptors, BLs, etc is potentially a big change and a big buff to Zerg: besides, of course, making initial Muta strats hit faster, which is also potentially a big deal. Ideally, we would get Mutas back into TvZ in a bigger way, since everyone seems to agree that was the most fun iteration of the matchup. They still need to change the Observer thing, though. That's just nuts. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Here is a change that could be applied equally to both Oversight and Surveillance modes:
If only want map vision, you can put the unit into Oversight/Surveillance mode. If you need a detector, you can put the unit into Overseer/Observer mode. This is probably a terrible suggestion for reasons I haven't thought about because I've only really thought about it for a few minutes, but if the Observer is being nerfed to punish F2 abusers, then the Overseer should be nerfed for the same reason.  | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
On September 23 2025 20:27 MJG wrote: All-or-nothing units like Disruptors are anti-fun. I'd rather Disruptors were But I really don't like Disruptors. Outside of Neeb in 2016, does ANYONE like Disruptors? | ||
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BlackEyed
15 Posts
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Koss4AA
3 Posts
On September 23 2025 22:52 MJG wrote: Assuming the Observer really needs to be changed, why isn't the Overseer also being changed? Here is a change that could be applied equally to both Oversight and Surveillance modes:
If only want map vision, you can put the unit into Oversight/Surveillance mode. If you need a detector, you can put the unit into Overseer/Observer mode. This is probably a terrible suggestion for reasons I haven't thought about because I've only really thought about it for a few minutes, but if the Observer is being nerfed to punish F2 abusers, then the Overseer should be nerfed for the same reason. Observer mode can be changed to reduce movement speed by 70-80% instead. Then observers have the same attention tax as like hold position lings. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26857 Posts
On September 23 2025 22:17 Vindicare605 wrote: This seems like a nice compromise, that I'm willing to at least test. I'm still not happy about the Observer changes at all, and I'm concerned that we might be going a tad overboard with the Zerg buffs but my biggest grievance that Protoss is just being objectively nerfed with no compensation has been settled. Yeah it has moved into a territory of, potentially interesting/I really don’t bloody know how this shakes up from ‘my god poor Protoss!’ I’m not convinced the spire changes will do what (many) hope which is see mut-muts be stock in TvZ again. For me just the fundamental eco shifts in Legacy, and just having more stuff earlier kinda naturally closes the traditional Muta window where they can roam and pin you and generally be pains. More viable, and perhaps more common, indeed they’re viable even now, but stock? Idk about that, feels that core problem of a Terran just killing you while you’re trying to get out sufficient numbers of banes after opening Mutas is still there. Maybe bane buff will help a bit too, but then why not just go ling/bling? Obviously you’re gonna see a lot of them in ZvZ, I’m not sure in a good way. It feels ZvZ isn’t in too bad a spot, with how the techs and timings intersect More generally, I wonder if what we’ll most see from the change is actually just making brood transitions smoother, or for getting your double spire ups when facing something like Skytoss. I can see situational muta switches where a Toss is still on one Stargate being really annoying, especially as Storm isn’t going to be as good against well-babysat Mutas bouncing around your bases. Low key one of the most frustrating interactions in the game, either Toss sniffs out the switch and gets out sufficient Phoenix and the mutas do jack shit, or they don’t and the Toss is playing Keystone Cops for like 2 minutes. Me predictions are often wrong, and I’m also talking about high level play specifically here. And I really dunno if these are good/bad changes overall. Lower level play, mostly feels quite good. When timings aren’t tight and folks don’t have crazy multitasking, general turtling styles can be really potent and frustrating to play against. Zergs have a new tool to play with, and their counters to things like Skytoss in a turtle game are coming online earlier, and are cheaper to boot. Viper/tank change I can live without. It feels contrary to the direction of some other changes, that seem intent on, either through speeding tech timings or a new spell, allowing Zergs to easier attack into defensive players. I assume it’s meant to counterbalance microbial shroud’s new features to some degree, but I think it’s premature. Let’s see if those new features are any good first! | ||
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Sent.
Poland9300 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16121 Posts
On September 23 2025 23:20 WombaT wrote: Yeah it has moved into a territory of, potentially interesting/I really don’t bloody know how this shakes up from ‘my god poor Protoss!’ I’m not convinced the spire changes will do what (many) hope which is see mut-muts be stock in TvZ again. For me just the fundamental eco shifts in Legacy, and just having more stuff earlier kinda naturally closes the traditional Muta window where they can roam and pin you and generally be pains. More viable, and perhaps more common, indeed they’re viable even now, but stock? Idk about that, feels that core problem of a Terran just killing you while you’re trying to get out sufficient numbers of banes after opening Mutas is still there. Maybe bane buff will help a bit too, but then why not just go ling/bling? Obviously you’re gonna see a lot of them in ZvZ, I’m not sure in a good way. It feels ZvZ isn’t in too bad a spot, with how the techs and timings intersect More generally, I wonder if what we’ll most see from the change is actually just making brood transitions smoother, or for getting your double spire ups when facing something like Skytoss. I can see situational muta switches where a Toss is still on one Stargate being really annoying, especially as Storm isn’t going to be as good against well-babysat Mutas bouncing around your bases. Low key one of the most frustrating interactions in the game, either Toss sniffs out the switch and gets out sufficient Phoenix and the mutas do jack shit, or they don’t and the Toss is playing Keystone Cops for like 2 minutes. Me predictions are often wrong, and I’m also talking about high level play specifically here. And I really dunno if these are good/bad changes overall. Lower level play, mostly feels quite good. When timings aren’t tight and folks don’t have crazy multitasking, general turtling styles can be really potent and frustrating to play against. Zergs have a new tool to play with, and their counters to things like Skytoss in a turtle game are coming online earlier, and are cheaper to boot. Viper/tank change I can live without. It feels contrary to the direction of some other changes, that seem intent on, either through speeding tech timings or a new spell, allowing Zergs to easier attack into defensive players. I assume it’s meant to counterbalance microbial shroud’s new features to some degree, but I think it’s premature. Let’s see if those new features are any good first! As I said originally about this one, I'm fine with the Abduct change from a balance perspective since Microbrial Shroud now directly counters Siege Tanks and I don't like the idea of Zerg having 3 entire spells that completely counter Siege Tanks, 2 is plenty. As long as the winrate is not completely ruined by this change then I'm fine keeping it. As far as a design perspective I fucking hate the spell Abduct in the first place and this is exactly why I hate it. If the only way to keep it fair is to limit the kinds of targets you can use it on then it's a completely busted spell that needs to be removed and replaced. What I'm most worried about with Zerg in this new patch is how exactly Protoss is supposed to beat them when the only way they have been winning (late game air dominance) has been now directly or indirectly nerfed in like 5 different ways? None of these are ideal solutions to any of the game's problems but it's not helpful for me to keep pointing that out. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3491 Posts
The cheap viking can honestly be interesting 125\50,is pretty good for ground viking, it's just incredibly busted for flight viking, even with the 25 mineral decrease I think it should lose 1 range, and also the +10 hp it received in hots, I think it was. Ground attack could be changed to 14+4vs. Light or something so it 3 shots workers and can do well vs. some units, the +vs mechanical never made sense, it's a gatlin gun. There're still a lot of dumb dumbs, why did we remove the cyclone bug? We've tried to make mech vs. protoss work since hots with warhounds, why are we now removing what seems to actually work somewhat.. because it wasn't meant to happen?, most of these patches weren't meant to happen, but here we are. Abductape should work on siege tanks as intended anything else is dumb, let it abduct mship as well and keep the menacing mship as is. Why aren't we reverting the hatch+queen cost, is anyone happy with this change? I forgot energy overcharge could be changed to also reset cooldowns then it could be used on immo barrier, disruptor and void ray to great effect and help build order variety. I also like suggestion to add 100 shields, then adept could shade in and tank tankfire! | ||
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RogueTheGOAT
166 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26857 Posts
On September 23 2025 22:52 MJG wrote: Assuming the Observer really needs to be changed, why isn't the Overseer also being changed? Here is a change that could be applied equally to both Oversight and Surveillance modes:
If only want map vision, you can put the unit into Oversight/Surveillance mode. If you need a detector, you can put the unit into Overseer/Observer mode. This is probably a terrible suggestion for reasons I haven't thought about because I've only really thought about it for a few minutes, but if the Observer is being nerfed to punish F2 abusers, then the Overseer should be nerfed for the same reason. Why is using F2 so frowned upon anyway? If you’re using it all the time, you’re pulling all sorts of units that aren’t observers out of position too, which is generally bad anyway. There are times when it’s the best option, such as ‘uh oh a push I didn’t see and set up for has arrived, I need to pull all my army’. In which scenario, you ended up pulling all your observers too, and locking them in place was an OK solution IMO. For all its flaws I think Stormgate did a pretty damn good job with control groups, and letting you customise how they worked or the equivalent of an all army hotkey in that game. But yeah as a tradeoff, I like this! If one needs a tradeoff. The tradeoff should be a nerf though, if required. Maybe you could drop the vision range by 1, as an alternative. It shouldn’t be a situational buff, accompanied with a gigantic nerf that makes it useless to use the ability in other scenarios. Speaking of the buff component, and it being situational, isn’t it going to be really annoying in those specific situations? Surveillance mode obs in dead spaces, well they’re going to cover things like drop avenues a good bit better, with less effort in terms of placement. Surveillance mode obs are also going to give deathballs more vision range, and be less exposed as they can sit further back. Aside from anything else, why does the observer keep getting these bloomin weird nerfs anyway? And I mean weird because I frequent many an SC space, and there’s a lot of balance whine about all sorts. Some don’t like observers being invisible and doing their thing. Then someone counters with ‘lategame Terran has infinite scans’ or ‘a good Zerg can see half the map with creep’. Standard stuff! Rarely did I see ‘observers are slightly too fast’ or ‘observer’s model is too small’ or ‘observers are OP in surveillance mode in conjunction with F2’ The sequence of changes, they’re by no means outrageous, but where are they coming from? They really smack of the frustrations of like, a singular pro player, almost certainly a Terran. Especially given one of the stated reasons for the speed change was that it was ‘frustrating’ that an obs could escape after a scan. Which I mean, if the Toss player is paying sufficient attention to do that, isn’t that a good thing? | ||
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tigera6
3486 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1286 Posts
Not saying it is a good reason to this ofc, but for me it is the only explanation that makes sense and that isn't just "we throw Protoss-nerfs at the wall and see what sticks" | ||
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THERIDDLER
Canada128 Posts
On September 23 2025 20:09 angry_maia wrote: something i feel very frustrated by is this pattern of 1. nerf disruptor because disruptor is rng/annoying/oppressive. 2. toss uses storm now 3. nerf strom and buff disruptor?!?! like what are we going to do, just keep going in circles? as everyone keeps pointing out, storm was never the reason P ever got imbalanced, and it's been around forever. Storm is buffed alongside disruptor | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1156 Posts
yes, correct. storm is buffed and disruptors are insanely buffed after this update. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26857 Posts
On September 24 2025 05:23 SHODAN wrote: yes, correct. storm is buffed and disruptors are insanely buffed after this update. It’s definitely a buff to Disruptors, I think the storm change remains to be seeen. Or it’s a buff in some scenarios and a nerf in others | ||
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