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As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
For comparison, I've never heard Serral complains like this after losing. One thing that's always astonishing to me about Serral is every time he loses in a big tournament, he will come back stronger next time fixing whatever small hole in his skill set that lost him the game last time. There's a noticeable improvement every time. He lost a few ZvZ in big tournaments then he decided to work on it and next thing you know, he didn't lost to Zerg for 3 months. And he doesn't got complacent like Reynor too. Just always heads down and work hard. He was already the best player in the world in 2018 and he kept improving after that. At this point it's hard to find any weakness in him.
Serral's nickname in Chinese fans circle is "the Overmind", there's a running joke that he will go back into Evolution Chamber every time after losing and came out with new genetic evolvements. The mindset of a true champion.
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On February 19 2024 07:04 Mizenhauer wrote:
I've interviewed a number of pros and commiserated with them how explanations and excuses are often the same thing in the eyes of fans. It's really hard for them to be honest about their condition a lot of the time because its often less of a hassle to keep their mouth shut rather than deal with asinine knee-jerk reactions from people who are clueless.
Anyone who has played StarCraft knows that even the tiniest thing can throw you off. Even just playing with a different keyboard is frustrating. I try to give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. These guys are their own harshest critics, I can't see why they would seek solace or pity from the community by coming up with random excuses.
So true.
Man, those stimpacks and splits do take a toll. Mvp, Taeja and Maru... Only 3 Gods victims to articulation injuries. Sad
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On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote:
As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be.
People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others.
ITs sad
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Maybe someone that actually speaks Korean could be more definitive about this, but it seems like Maru's being rather tongue-in-cheek or semi-joking with a lot of his answers. People may be reading a bit too much into this interview.
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On February 19 2024 04:50 Christof wrote:
No idea maru was actually that much of a excuse seeker..you lost... get beter
Not really surprising based on his past interview history.
It’s always “Terran underpowered” or “toss and Zerg needs a nerf”
He is mentally weak and makes a lot of excuses.
People has injuries too, most just don’t come out crying about it (true in all sports as well)
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Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On February 19 2024 09:12 Glorfindelio wrote:
Maybe someone that actually speaks Korean could be more definitive about this, but it seems like Maru's being rather tongue-in-cheek or semi-joking with a lot of his answers. People may be reading a bit too much into this interview.
I mean yes there’s no camera + subtitles can’t really convey tone in a language you might not speak or understand at all. Seems pretty plausible
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On February 19 2024 05:12 UnLarva wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2024 04:50 Christof wrote:
No idea maru was actually that much of a excuse seeker..you lost... get beter Disappointment driven statements, that's clear. But why injury symptoms tend to handicap performance largely only when playing outside Korea, and against top foreigners during weekenders? Serral was just better, why just not accept it? It is not a shame to lose Serral in The Katowice finals. Terran IMBA whine seems to penetrate and permeate the narrative from the bottom to the top. Why don't do like Serral do? When losing and observing some weakness(es) in his own play, he then immediately proceed to fix those perceived problems? Can't be so that Top Dog Terran cannot do that, it makes no sense.
Maru's problems with injuries have been known for his entire career, it's not some new excuse. Remember when he was offered to join SKT when they switched to SC2 12 years ago? Probably not, but his family chose to turn them down because they felt he should take time off to get treatment for his wrists. And when asked about his health in GSL interviews in 2020, he spoke about how he was only able to play a few games each day, and was in the hospital 3x a week for treatment on his shoulder.
"Why do his injuries only effect him outside of Korea?" They don't, he has made more ro4+ appearances in world championships than any other player in sc2 history. And it's not like he's won countless Korean weekenders, his success is mostly in Proleague and Starleagues like GSL.
Fans have speculated for a decade about whether him being transcendently successful in Starleagues and Proleague, while less so in weekend events, is down to having days off between matches and not having his wrist or shoulder giving out. It's worth a discussion but we will never know for sure.
As for "Why does Serral not make excuses?", well he hasn't had a career plagued by injuries (that we know of), and has certainly never had to endure Zerg being weak at the pro level. Hell, there have even been conspiracy theories in recent years that Zerg players are in charge of the balance council. It's hard to blame Maru for making comments about Infestors when Ghosts were nerfed after Zerg player's complaints.
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On February 19 2024 08:29 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote:
As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad
Did you watch the whole interview?
If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking
but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors.
Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing.
I am not taking anything out of context here.
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I mean, what people would expect Maru to say here? He didnt really change his tone or giving any thing that he hasnt given in previous interview. Mind you, Maru was the guy who keep saying Lurker needed to be nerfed constantly even when Ghost was at its peak power. Its just how he feel about things and hes being honest, with a bit of trolling about the balance forum, I doubt he would submit anything officially.
Overall, I dont think Maru did bad against Serral EXCEPT for his terrible defense against early Roach Ravager pressure. Playing a greedy 3CC setup without Banshee/Cyclone is just bad especially when you have no scouting information. He lost 3 games to Dark in MC7 doing the same damn thing and he still not changing his opener by one bit is driving me nut. But the other 2 games were fairly balance, one was on an insanely Zerg favored map, I am sure any Terran would have lost that games 15 minutes before Maru did. While I dont think Burrowed Infestor is OP, Fungal could be played around to deal more DPS but shorter slow-down effect.
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On February 19 2024 11:29 Nasigil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2024 08:29 Locutos wrote:On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote:
As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad Did you watch the whole interview? If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors. Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing. I am not taking anything out of context here.
Thing is, SC2 players complaining or making comments about balance is pretty normal and not really something to heavily read into. Can you imagine if INno was in the place of Maru here? He would say Zerg imba even after winning. TY would be reduced to tears in interviews talking about Protoss. And Maru gave a lot of praise to Serral in the interview as well, he just said he believes they should nerf Infestors which is a pretty reasonable thing to say after how he lost.
Plus, it's hard to blame Maru for making comments on Infestors when Ghosts recently got nerfed. Remember in 2018 when he swept Serral with ravens? They got nerfed within weeks. Is it not now the other way around?
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The way they handled Ravens is indeed very unfair compared to other spellcasters like Infestors.
Blizz said that they wanted Raven to be a unit you just make 1-2 of for support. Why? Is it not an expensive, high tech spellcaster? What other spellcaster in the game do you design so that its use drastically falls off after 1-2 in most cases, besides the Mothership? They way overreacted to the mass Raven/PDD strategies in HotS. It's 1 thing to go from 20-30 Ravens to 10 Ravens, it's another to try to design it so that you only make 1-2.
In consequence, we ended up with much of Terran's lategame spellcasting power being redistributed to the Ghost - a unit that was already solid with many uses, and we have the modern Snipe, which is very potent and dishes a huge amount of damage - much more than I'm sure was initially intended. (It was supposed to be weaker than earlier versions of Snipe, and they designed it thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to disrupt the cast by doing damage, but in reality we get situations where when a zerg tries to retreat, they get punished with lots of snipes. They didn't account for that when giving it a high damage).
And now we just see mass ghosts in TvZ as a way to counter soo many different things - Lurkers, BLs, Ultras, Infestors, Vipers, anything really. Strong auto attack, a high damage spell which gets increasingly stronger the more Ghosts you have, an AOE ability with lots of utility/damage, cloak, and supply efficient. Great job.
If you follow the design goals and reasonings throughout the years for changes made to certain things like the Raven, it honestly gets me pretty frustrated because you can see how years later they've forgotten the original design goals or the reasons why certain things were buffed/nerfed. Instead of reverting certain things, it often feels like they end up straying into weird directions by slapping bandaids on bandaids and forgetting what they were even trying to do in the first place.
(Example: After the Raven rework into an earlier spellcaster that you can get for detection and harass with, they decided to make the auto turret to help make it worth getting early, and thus gave it high DPS with low duration. This had a weird side effect because now you could once again mass Ravens and fight armies... this time with mass auto turrets
Later on, the balance council decided that it still wasn't worth getting early on for detection, so they made the raven build quicker and cost 50 less gas, and removed the energy upgrade to make investing into mass Ravens less worth it. However, with the reduced build time and lower gas cost, they failed to make the auto turrets actually weaker, just have 2 seconds less duration. So it was still great at massing and fighting (because usually the turrets tank damage and die fast anyways and now massing Ravens was even cheaper), with the side effect of being weaker at worker harass because the 2 seconds duration matters there.
Even worse, they kept Interference Matrix exactly the same, giving it a significant indirect buff because now it was even easier to do those Interference Matrix pushes in TvP, when Protoss was already struggling to defend them with the weaker Overcharge. Great job there.
It was later that the auto turret was patched to be weaker with lower HP and 0 armor, finally.
But they could have just reverted or reviewed the high DPS auto turret design in the first place when they made the decision to shorten the build time and decrease the gas cost, not stick to the high DPS auto turret design just cus. It existed in the first place to try to make the Raven worth getting early. Once they decided they could reduce the build time and gas cost to push its usefulness as a detector, they should have reconsidered everything else about the unit as a whole, and see whether it fits that new direction.
Tangent, but honestly, i always preferred the auto turret having a longer duration, low DPS, and be more of a wall that tanks damage. This was much more interesting than just adding even more high-DPS density to the game. It would have also helped keep a semblence of the Raven's former defensive capabilities, since longer duration turrets meant more for tanking would have filled the role PDD left. It could still be used in TvT to soak up tank hits, whether for defense or for a push. It would also be more useful for mech in general, since anything that helps tank damage really helps traditional Tank based mech, such as dropping a few vs chargelots which are unnecessarily strong vs tank/hellbat comps. Nah instead we just get more units that are good at killing worker lines, and basically rely on the opponent reacting fast to minimize damage... it's very not interesting. A lower dps turret with longer duration could still be used to harass worker lines by forcing the opponent to pull workers and lose mining time, and give the opponent the option to wait it out or bring a couple units to kill it (without much threat due to the lower dps).
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On February 19 2024 12:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
In consequence, we ended up with much of Terran's lategame spellcasting power being redistributed to the Ghost - a unit that was already solid with many uses, and we have the modern Snipe, which is very potent and dishes a huge amount of damage - much more than I'm sure was initially intended. (It was supposed to be weaker than earlier versions of Snipe, and they designed it thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to disrupt the cast by doing damage, but in reality we get situations where when a zerg tries to retreat, they get punished with lots of snipes. They didn't account for that when giving it a high damage).
What they failed to realise is that Zerg can techswitch so quickly in the lategame that terran has to have counter-all units like Ghosts that can fight any composition. In addition, the maps are so big that terran has to trade so much more efficiently that they need some way of killing units for free, like snipe.
At the same time, Zerg's counter to that is Infestors having 10 vision range while burrowed and sharking then around until one gets the Ghosts. At least one rogue Ghost trying a game-ending nuke has a warning and a delay, yet one rogue Infestor can hit game ending fungals without warning? It doesn't seem good.
They nerfed Ghosts so that Zerg could retreat without losing everything, which feels good direction in terms of game design. Nerfing Infestors would also be a step in the right direction. Or at least smaller maps so that mass spellcaster efficiency wars aren't the meta.
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great interview. Always appreciate to hear Maru's opinion on things. The fact that he thinks he can go 50/50 vs Serral is good. I hope he can his shit together after hi lost twice in a row in the katowice finals. This years world champions is at Gamers8 venue. I hope the change of venue will also help his mentality.
About the shoulder, yeah it sucks hard. I guess it comes onto play when you need to do several hours of competitive play over 4 days.
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lmao the circlejerk of people jumping on Maru, taking everything at face value. Prematch itw Maru said "I'm not confident at all, it's Serral we are talking about" ofc he respects him.
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On February 19 2024 12:12 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2024 11:29 Nasigil wrote:On February 19 2024 08:29 Locutos wrote:On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote:
As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad Did you watch the whole interview? If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors. Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing. I am not taking anything out of context here. Thing is, SC2 players complaining or making comments about balance is pretty normal and not really something to heavily read into. Can you imagine if INno was in the place of Maru here? He would say Zerg imba even after winning. TY would be reduced to tears in interviews talking about Protoss. And Maru gave a lot of praise to Serral in the interview as well, he just said he believes they should nerf Infestors which is a pretty reasonable thing to say after how he lost.
100%, Korean pros complain about balance a lot more than foreigners, it's not something Maru specific. I imagine a lot of it is joking since Korean pros are close to one another. (I remember a funny interview when soO (paraphrased) said that Parting was just good at Protoss bullshit but Classic was good at Protoss bullshit and good too.)
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On February 19 2024 22:09 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2024 12:12 Fango wrote:On February 19 2024 11:29 Nasigil wrote:On February 19 2024 08:29 Locutos wrote:On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote:
As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world.
Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad Did you watch the whole interview? If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors. Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing. I am not taking anything out of context here. Thing is, SC2 players complaining or making comments about balance is pretty normal and not really something to heavily read into. Can you imagine if INno was in the place of Maru here? He would say Zerg imba even after winning. TY would be reduced to tears in interviews talking about Protoss. And Maru gave a lot of praise to Serral in the interview as well, he just said he believes they should nerf Infestors which is a pretty reasonable thing to say after how he lost. 100%, Korean pros complain about balance a lot more than foreigners, it's not something Maru specific. I imagine a lot of it is joking since Korean pros are close to one another. (I remember a funny interview when soO (paraphrased) said that Parting was just good at Protoss bullshit but Classic was good at Protoss bullshit and good too.)
With players like Scarlett, Heromarine, formerly uThermal as the "face" of the foreign scene, I don't know if koreans complain MORE, but indeed they complain more than the average person thinks.
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and the arguable GOAT.
stop this crap already, there can only be one GOAT and thats Serral, case closed ...
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I think it is important to think of SC2 as a true sport, you have to take care of your body, have rest times, physical training, healthy eating, etc. You have to understand that SC2 is no longer a game about just grinding to improve, just seeing Byun breaks my heart. Serral says he only plays for a couple of hours at most.
If the shoulder-wrist pain or whatever is the result of something you did or are doing wrong and if you don't improve it, it will be bothering you to show your true potential. I just hope the damage is reversible.
In another key point, and if it is very clear, Serral is several steps higher in mental strength, he is always confident in his game, or at least he makes us believe that, but what leads him to be incredibly consistent in his game.
Finally, when Serral was asked about games he lost, for example, in master colisseum when he lost 0-2 against Maru for example, he was very clear in saying his mistakes... he made no excuses. and He showed that he was able to improve his early game. and BOOM 3-0 next day.
Even though the infestors thing is broken, it was only in game 2, Maru made many mistakes, he doesn't mention any, poor management of run bys, poor selection of builds that don't work as expected, lack of scout, etc., etc. (who am I to criticize him, anyway) knowing that, if you want to win a tournament of this caliber, you probably have to defeat Serral at some point. you must prepare something for him TT.
I just hope that Maru comes back Strong and analyzes his mistakes as he should, to improve.
n conclusion, what I want to say is that Serral is definitely a better athlete,
greetings !!
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People analyzing and trying to draw conclusions from this interview should check themselves lmao.
Most of what was said was in jest. The banter and needling was thoroughly entertaining, and it was good to get some insight on how he felt going into the series. Most of the hyperbole aside - it's pretty crazy to think that you have almost no chance to win.
Good interview.
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On February 19 2024 21:44 youaremysin wrote:
lmao the circlejerk of people jumping on Maru, taking everything at face value. Prematch itw Maru said "I'm not confident at all, it's Serral we are talking about" ofc he respects him.
Why there was no handshake after the finals 4th game? Did Maru just ran a way from the situation? There are people (no doubt Terrans) who blame Serral for not properly handshaking Maru out there. We can circle jerk as much as we want and take things as their face value, when things related to this topic force to take them in their face value.
My issue is lack of sportmanship from Maru's part, and I suspect strongly that there are more health issues than 'shoulder', and to dispel any misconceptions I consider Maru as one of absolute best ever player in StarCraft 2, with little bit higher consistency with psychological integrity, possibly the best ever. Let's see what the future brings.
Said by Serral Fanboi with diagnosed (Childhood era) Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Type 2 Bipolar Mental Disorder, Psychosomatic Anxiety Symptoms, and several other lesser co-morbidities.
Only "Shoulder"? My ass.
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EPT
