EPTMaru interview with CranK
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ZAWGURN
96 Posts
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JJH777
United States4404 Posts
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Christof
8 Posts
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
Working out helps solving, or at least, minimizing these kinda physical problems | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On February 19 2024 04:50 Christof wrote: No idea maru was actually that much of a excuse seeker..you lost... get beter Disappointment driven statements, that's clear. But why injury symptoms tend to handicap performance largely only when playing outside Korea, and against top foreigners during weekenders? Serral was just better, why just not accept it? It is not a shame to lose Serral in The Katowice finals. Terran IMBA whine seems to penetrate and permeate the narrative from the bottom to the top. Why don't do like Serral do? When losing and observing some weakness(es) in his own play, he then immediately proceed to fix those perceived problems? Can't be so that Top Dog Terran cannot do that, it makes no sense. | ||
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Christof
8 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:12 UnLarva wrote: Disappointment driven statements, that's clear. But why injury symptoms tend to handicap performance largely only when playing outside Korea, and against top foreigners during weekenders? Serral was just better, why just not accept it? It is not a shame to lose Serral in The Katowice finals. Terran IMBA whine seems to penetrate and permeate the narrative from the bottom to the top. Why don't do like Serral do? When losing and observing some weakness(es) in his own play, he then immediately proceed to fix those perceived problems? Can't be so that Top Dog Terran cannot do that, it makes no sense. Exactly my point. I always considerd maru and serral to be on ecual foot. Not anymore... serral wouldnt do this | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Comedy
456 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1161 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:12 UnLarva wrote: Disappointment driven statements, that's clear. But why injury symptoms tend to handicap performance largely only when playing outside Korea, and against top foreigners during weekenders? Serral was just better, why just not accept it? It is not a shame to lose Serral in The Katowice finals. Terran IMBA whine seems to penetrate and permeate the narrative from the bottom to the top. Why don't do like Serral do? When losing and observing some weakness(es) in his own play, he then immediately proceed to fix those perceived problems? Can't be so that Top Dog Terran cannot do that, it makes no sense. Yeah, I must agree. I'm actually quite surprised about Maru's outlook. Though perhaps partly in jest, his answers are disappointingly replete with excuses (shoulder, "play like Clem", balance, whatever), with little acknowledgement of his own mistakes and Serral's performance. This is another one of the many things which, in my view, make Serral the GoaT. When inquired about his losses (for example, his series against Clem in Atlanta), he does not blame external circumstances. He just goes on to list all the little details he could have done and will do better next time. Which he then does. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:30 Christof wrote: Exactly my point. I always considerd maru and serral to be on ecual foot. Not anymore... serral wouldnt do this I find this sad. Really sad. I didn't realize that a psychological rupture was that wide, and handicapping. "Shoulder problems", while real, are also cover and euphemism for something else much more devastating. In hindsight, Serral's win doesn't appear anyway surprising. And yes, Serral would turn disappointments inside, and seek faults and reasons from within, criticising himself for his own errors, mistakes and underperformances, necessary requirement for being able to fix, change, or develop anything. Is there some kind cultural psychological differences I'm not aware of, that make psychological coping mechanism so different? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:30 Christof wrote: Exactly my point. I always considerd maru and serral to be on ecual foot. Not anymore... serral wouldnt do this Serral’s shoulder isn’t fucked either. And it’s not like Maru said anything ungracious, he said if he felt absolutely 100% he’d still consider his chances the same as picking a coin toss. It’s just the guy’s personality, at least the side us foreign folks see. He’s a very reserved character with a very glass half-full lens on everything, and is pretty damn self-critical. Maru’s perception of his play is akin to Artosis’ old line on the game state if you’re playing Maru (‘if it’s even, he’s ahead…). If he says he’s in awful shape, he’s still playing better than most of a bracket. If he says he’s ok, he’s probably approaching apotheosis. If he says he’s playing great, well I can’t remember him ever saying that! You can go back to any Maru interview basically ever, read his comments and if you didn’t know they were his words you’d assume they came from some new face who’s not adjusted to being on the big stage yet. Not the ‘4th race’ and the arguable GOAT. Don’t think any disrespect was meant, he’s just a very negative Nancy is Maru. Cheers for the share btw OP and it’s cool to see. For all they’ve been such a fixture for so long, we still don’t get that big a sense of what most of the Korean scene think of the state of game, or their general personalities all that much. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 19 2024 06:16 UnLarva wrote: I find this sad. Really sad. I didn't realize that a psychological rupture was that wide, and handicapping. "Shoulder problems", while real, are also cover and euphemism for something else much more devastating. In hindsight, Serral's win doesn't appear anyway surprising. And yes, Serral would turn disappointments inside, and seek faults and reasons from within, criticising himself for his own errors, mistakes and underperformances, necessary requirement for being able to fix, change, or develop anything. Is there some kind cultural psychological differences I'm not aware of, that make psychological coping mechanism so different? I’m sure Maru also does that. I mean he carried Terran in various eras solo in a manner I really feel Trap has only ever come close to replicating in his latter days (maybe someone else has another equivalent example?). He’s got a very proven track record in just knuckling down and getting on with it. I feel people underestimate the language/cultural divide here, we just hear way more of the thoughts, elations and disappointments of our foreign pros as they almost all speak English, most of us do and we get a lot more exposure to it. Maru’s shoulder isn’t in good shape. I’m not sure exactly how bad it is, but it’s definitely somewhere between trivial and and a career crippler like an Mvp or a Taeja had with their various limbs. Guy’s probably pretty damn frustrated trying to get that missing part of the jigsaw in completing SC2 as an eSport, while having injury issues, and having a seeming brick wall like Serral deny him again. I’d cut him a bit of slack personally. I don’t like when fans make endless excuses or devalue Serral’s achievements etc, but I can’t blame the man himself for having pretty natural frustrations. As good as Serral is, he’s really never had any period where Zerg wasn’t pretty damn potent, so naturally he’s not really got that to use as a crutch to avoid self-reflection and improvement. It’s like when a really privileged person goes ‘Hey I don’t complain, why are you?’ Well I mean you have nothing to complain about! | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1851 Posts
Anyone who has played StarCraft knows that even the tiniest thing can throw you off. Even just playing with a different keyboard is frustrating. I try to give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. These guys are their own harshest critics, I can't see why they would seek solace or pity from the community by coming up with random excuses. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 19 2024 06:40 UnLarva wrote: @ WombaT Thanks for clarifications. No problem sir! I mean like I said I’m not fully in the loop either but it’s to the best of my knowledge. Maru and Serral are two titans, nay gods of the game, that have delivered so many ‘how the fuck did he do that?’ moments I’ve long lost count. Life is all about preferences, so by all means have one! But not appreciating the other is just daft (this comment isn’t directed at you btw) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 19 2024 07:04 Mizenhauer wrote: I've interviewed a number of pros and commiserated with them how explanations and excuses are often the same thing in the eyes of fans. It's really hard for them to be honest about their condition a lot of the time because its often less of a hassle to keep their mouth shut rather than deal with asinine knee-jerk reactions from people who are clueless. Anyone who has played StarCraft knows that even the tiniest thing can throw you off. Even just playing with a different keyboard is frustrating. I try to give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. These guys are their own harshest critics, I can't see why they would seek solace or pity from the community by coming up with random excuses. People play the game? :O But yeah running LANs our schedule was a frequent nightmare because we gave people a lot of setup time, people brought their own gear and psych-up music. But we all knew many of us are very particular and it was worth the trade for competitive integrity Yeah you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If your wrists are about to explode and you bomb out in multiple tournaments and don’t explain it, people will start theorising that your motivation is gone, or you’re just phoning it in. If you are forthright and honest about it, some people will say you’re making excuses. Fans really do suck sometimes, I try not to myself but I know I’m not perfect in this regard either | ||
Poopi
France12797 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
When Maru referred to the "chat room" for balance discussions, what is he referring to? Nice to get his thoughts on how he feels he stacks up vs Serral, whether he needs something special to win or not, etc. I think if Maru can defeat Serral and win a WC (especially if it's an actual WC in name), then Maru could regain a decent case to be #1 GOAT, and a very exciting and fun rivalry can continue (and perhaps keep SC2 alive!) | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On February 19 2024 07:06 WombaT wrote: No problem sir! I mean like I said I’m not fully in the loop either but it’s to the best of my knowledge. Maru and Serral are two titans, nay gods of the game, that have delivered so many ‘how the fuck did he do that?’ moments I’ve long lost count. Life is all about preferences, so by all means have one! But not appreciating the other is just daft (this comment isn’t directed at you btw) It's all about preferences, yep. What surprised me most was that I've always feared Maru the most when it comes to the threat vs Serral, from the perspective of Finnish Serral fanboi. I've always thought Maru like a distant, etherreal, demi-godly entity. This interview changed my perception profoundly and mainly because of Maru's perceived lack of sportsmanship. Then, considering how fragile whole competitive Sc2 scene is, Top players particularly hold certain responsibility what comes to their public statements on various topics. Also, I didn't expect Terran IMBA whine coming from Maru's mouth in this context. The Best Terran's misplaced scans in one game and inability to follow tactically and multitask properly against in-form best Zerg of the world equals now IMBA? That feels just low to me. LOW. L-O-W. Still, paradoxically I hope now more than ever Maru would get a grip, and not retire. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1161 Posts
On February 19 2024 07:35 UnLarva wrote: What surprised me most was that I've always feared Maru the most when it comes to the threat vs Serral, from the perspective of Finnish Serral fanboi. I've always thought Maru like a distant, etherreal, demi-godly entity. This interview changed my perception profoundly and mainly because of Maru's perceived lack of sportsmanship. [...] Also, I didn't expect Terran IMBA whine coming from Maru's mouth in this context. The Best Terran's misplaced scans in one game and inability to follow tactically and multitask properly against in-form best Zerg of the world equals now IMBA? That feels just low to me. LOW. L-O-W. I feel the same way. And I think some of the justifications given are ignoring a part of the picture. Here is a passage from the interview: Crank: "But you overwhelmingly defeated the best players except Serral at Katowice, so there are discussions whether a special effort is needed to defeat Serral from the fans' perspective. Do you also think you need to prepare something special to win vs. Serral as well?" Maru: "Rather than that, shouldn't Zerg be nerfed? [...] There is a chat room for balance discussions, so I posted asking to nerf Burrowed Infestors when I got back." Yes, Maru may have been honest in voicing this opinion. But if so, it is an outright denial of his own responsibility in favor of balance whine. I think it is perfectly valid to say that this is not a good look. Even some of Crank's responses seem to mirror this sentiment. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
For comparison, I've never heard Serral complains like this after losing. One thing that's always astonishing to me about Serral is every time he loses in a big tournament, he will come back stronger next time fixing whatever small hole in his skill set that lost him the game last time. There's a noticeable improvement every time. He lost a few ZvZ in big tournaments then he decided to work on it and next thing you know, he didn't lost to Zerg for 3 months. And he doesn't got complacent like Reynor too. Just always heads down and work hard. He was already the best player in the world in 2018 and he kept improving after that. At this point it's hard to find any weakness in him. Serral's nickname in Chinese fans circle is "the Overmind", there's a running joke that he will go back into Evolution Chamber every time after losing and came out with new genetic evolvements. The mindset of a true champion. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On February 19 2024 07:04 Mizenhauer wrote: I've interviewed a number of pros and commiserated with them how explanations and excuses are often the same thing in the eyes of fans. It's really hard for them to be honest about their condition a lot of the time because its often less of a hassle to keep their mouth shut rather than deal with asinine knee-jerk reactions from people who are clueless. Anyone who has played StarCraft knows that even the tiniest thing can throw you off. Even just playing with a different keyboard is frustrating. I try to give the pros the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these things. These guys are their own harshest critics, I can't see why they would seek solace or pity from the community by coming up with random excuses. So true. Man, those stimpacks and splits do take a toll. Mvp, Taeja and Maru... Only 3 Gods victims to articulation injuries. Sad | ||
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Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On February 19 2024 08:23 Nasigil wrote: As others have said, it's kinda weak to complain about balance after you got swept. Especially complaining about burrowed infestors when it only partially contributes in 1 of 4 final losses. Also saying things like "well you see Clem can't beat Serral either so Zerg needs to be nerfed", acting like only Terran is supposed to win in a fair world. Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad | ||
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Glorfindelio
203 Posts
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 19 2024 04:50 Christof wrote: No idea maru was actually that much of a excuse seeker..you lost... get beter Not really surprising based on his past interview history. It’s always “Terran underpowered” or “toss and Zerg needs a nerf” He is mentally weak and makes a lot of excuses. People has injuries too, most just don’t come out crying about it (true in all sports as well) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 19 2024 09:12 Glorfindelio wrote: Maybe someone that actually speaks Korean could be more definitive about this, but it seems like Maru's being rather tongue-in-cheek or semi-joking with a lot of his answers. People may be reading a bit too much into this interview. I mean yes there’s no camera + subtitles can’t really convey tone in a language you might not speak or understand at all. Seems pretty plausible | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:12 UnLarva wrote: Disappointment driven statements, that's clear. But why injury symptoms tend to handicap performance largely only when playing outside Korea, and against top foreigners during weekenders? Serral was just better, why just not accept it? It is not a shame to lose Serral in The Katowice finals. Terran IMBA whine seems to penetrate and permeate the narrative from the bottom to the top. Why don't do like Serral do? When losing and observing some weakness(es) in his own play, he then immediately proceed to fix those perceived problems? Can't be so that Top Dog Terran cannot do that, it makes no sense. Maru's problems with injuries have been known for his entire career, it's not some new excuse. Remember when he was offered to join SKT when they switched to SC2 12 years ago? Probably not, but his family chose to turn them down because they felt he should take time off to get treatment for his wrists. And when asked about his health in GSL interviews in 2020, he spoke about how he was only able to play a few games each day, and was in the hospital 3x a week for treatment on his shoulder. "Why do his injuries only effect him outside of Korea?" They don't, he has made more ro4+ appearances in world championships than any other player in sc2 history. And it's not like he's won countless Korean weekenders, his success is mostly in Proleague and Starleagues like GSL. Fans have speculated for a decade about whether him being transcendently successful in Starleagues and Proleague, while less so in weekend events, is down to having days off between matches and not having his wrist or shoulder giving out. It's worth a discussion but we will never know for sure. As for "Why does Serral not make excuses?", well he hasn't had a career plagued by injuries (that we know of), and has certainly never had to endure Zerg being weak at the pro level. Hell, there have even been conspiracy theories in recent years that Zerg players are in charge of the balance council. It's hard to blame Maru for making comments about Infestors when Ghosts were nerfed after Zerg player's complaints. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On February 19 2024 08:29 Locutos wrote: Are you sure he wasnt joking about the nerf thing? He could very well be. People on internet have this sad and toxic tendency to be sure about so many complex things (i.e. a person's mind and personality) that they've seen through an specific point of view. And worse than that, take conclusion and spread them in a matter of fact way that can cause so much unjust impact on others. ITs sad Did you watch the whole interview? If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors. Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing. I am not taking anything out of context here. | ||
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tigera6
3364 Posts
Overall, I dont think Maru did bad against Serral EXCEPT for his terrible defense against early Roach Ravager pressure. Playing a greedy 3CC setup without Banshee/Cyclone is just bad especially when you have no scouting information. He lost 3 games to Dark in MC7 doing the same damn thing and he still not changing his opener by one bit is driving me nut. But the other 2 games were fairly balance, one was on an insanely Zerg favored map, I am sure any Terran would have lost that games 15 minutes before Maru did. While I dont think Burrowed Infestor is OP, Fungal could be played around to deal more DPS but shorter slow-down effect. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 19 2024 11:29 Nasigil wrote: Did you watch the whole interview? If he just stops at "shouldn't Zerg get nerfed?" then I would chuck it up to joking but then he literally said he went to the balance forum suggesting nerfing infestors. Crank even gave him a way out by suggesting maybe Serral just did it better than other Zerg but Maru doubled down by using "but Clem also lost to Serral" as an argument that it's not his fault that he lost, Terran literally can't win now and Zerg definitely need nerfing. I am not taking anything out of context here. Thing is, SC2 players complaining or making comments about balance is pretty normal and not really something to heavily read into. Can you imagine if INno was in the place of Maru here? He would say Zerg imba even after winning. TY would be reduced to tears in interviews talking about Protoss. And Maru gave a lot of praise to Serral in the interview as well, he just said he believes they should nerf Infestors which is a pretty reasonable thing to say after how he lost. Plus, it's hard to blame Maru for making comments on Infestors when Ghosts recently got nerfed. Remember in 2018 when he swept Serral with ravens? They got nerfed within weeks. Is it not now the other way around? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
Blizz said that they wanted Raven to be a unit you just make 1-2 of for support. Why? Is it not an expensive, high tech spellcaster? What other spellcaster in the game do you design so that its use drastically falls off after 1-2 in most cases, besides the Mothership? They way overreacted to the mass Raven/PDD strategies in HotS. It's 1 thing to go from 20-30 Ravens to 10 Ravens, it's another to try to design it so that you only make 1-2. In consequence, we ended up with much of Terran's lategame spellcasting power being redistributed to the Ghost - a unit that was already solid with many uses, and we have the modern Snipe, which is very potent and dishes a huge amount of damage - much more than I'm sure was initially intended. (It was supposed to be weaker than earlier versions of Snipe, and they designed it thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to disrupt the cast by doing damage, but in reality we get situations where when a zerg tries to retreat, they get punished with lots of snipes. They didn't account for that when giving it a high damage). And now we just see mass ghosts in TvZ as a way to counter soo many different things - Lurkers, BLs, Ultras, Infestors, Vipers, anything really. Strong auto attack, a high damage spell which gets increasingly stronger the more Ghosts you have, an AOE ability with lots of utility/damage, cloak, and supply efficient. Great job. If you follow the design goals and reasonings throughout the years for changes made to certain things like the Raven, it honestly gets me pretty frustrated because you can see how years later they've forgotten the original design goals or the reasons why certain things were buffed/nerfed. Instead of reverting certain things, it often feels like they end up straying into weird directions by slapping bandaids on bandaids and forgetting what they were even trying to do in the first place. (Example: After the Raven rework into an earlier spellcaster that you can get for detection and harass with, they decided to make the auto turret to help make it worth getting early, and thus gave it high DPS with low duration. This had a weird side effect because now you could once again mass Ravens and fight armies... this time with mass auto turrets Later on, the balance council decided that it still wasn't worth getting early on for detection, so they made the raven build quicker and cost 50 less gas, and removed the energy upgrade to make investing into mass Ravens less worth it. However, with the reduced build time and lower gas cost, they failed to make the auto turrets actually weaker, just have 2 seconds less duration. So it was still great at massing and fighting (because usually the turrets tank damage and die fast anyways and now massing Ravens was even cheaper), with the side effect of being weaker at worker harass because the 2 seconds duration matters there. Even worse, they kept Interference Matrix exactly the same, giving it a significant indirect buff because now it was even easier to do those Interference Matrix pushes in TvP, when Protoss was already struggling to defend them with the weaker Overcharge. Great job there. It was later that the auto turret was patched to be weaker with lower HP and 0 armor, finally. But they could have just reverted or reviewed the high DPS auto turret design in the first place when they made the decision to shorten the build time and decrease the gas cost, not stick to the high DPS auto turret design just cus. It existed in the first place to try to make the Raven worth getting early. Once they decided they could reduce the build time and gas cost to push its usefulness as a detector, they should have reconsidered everything else about the unit as a whole, and see whether it fits that new direction. Tangent, but honestly, i always preferred the auto turret having a longer duration, low DPS, and be more of a wall that tanks damage. This was much more interesting than just adding even more high-DPS density to the game. It would have also helped keep a semblence of the Raven's former defensive capabilities, since longer duration turrets meant more for tanking would have filled the role PDD left. It could still be used in TvT to soak up tank hits, whether for defense or for a push. It would also be more useful for mech in general, since anything that helps tank damage really helps traditional Tank based mech, such as dropping a few vs chargelots which are unnecessarily strong vs tank/hellbat comps. Nah instead we just get more units that are good at killing worker lines, and basically rely on the opponent reacting fast to minimize damage... it's very not interesting. A lower dps turret with longer duration could still be used to harass worker lines by forcing the opponent to pull workers and lose mining time, and give the opponent the option to wait it out or bring a couple units to kill it (without much threat due to the lower dps). | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 19 2024 12:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: In consequence, we ended up with much of Terran's lategame spellcasting power being redistributed to the Ghost - a unit that was already solid with many uses, and we have the modern Snipe, which is very potent and dishes a huge amount of damage - much more than I'm sure was initially intended. (It was supposed to be weaker than earlier versions of Snipe, and they designed it thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to disrupt the cast by doing damage, but in reality we get situations where when a zerg tries to retreat, they get punished with lots of snipes. They didn't account for that when giving it a high damage). What they failed to realise is that Zerg can techswitch so quickly in the lategame that terran has to have counter-all units like Ghosts that can fight any composition. In addition, the maps are so big that terran has to trade so much more efficiently that they need some way of killing units for free, like snipe. At the same time, Zerg's counter to that is Infestors having 10 vision range while burrowed and sharking then around until one gets the Ghosts. At least one rogue Ghost trying a game-ending nuke has a warning and a delay, yet one rogue Infestor can hit game ending fungals without warning? It doesn't seem good. They nerfed Ghosts so that Zerg could retreat without losing everything, which feels good direction in terms of game design. Nerfing Infestors would also be a step in the right direction. Or at least smaller maps so that mass spellcaster efficiency wars aren't the meta. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4906 Posts
About the shoulder, yeah it sucks hard. I guess it comes onto play when you need to do several hours of competitive play over 4 days. | ||
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youaremysin
119 Posts
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dysenterymd
1204 Posts
On February 19 2024 12:12 Fango wrote: Thing is, SC2 players complaining or making comments about balance is pretty normal and not really something to heavily read into. Can you imagine if INno was in the place of Maru here? He would say Zerg imba even after winning. TY would be reduced to tears in interviews talking about Protoss. And Maru gave a lot of praise to Serral in the interview as well, he just said he believes they should nerf Infestors which is a pretty reasonable thing to say after how he lost. 100%, Korean pros complain about balance a lot more than foreigners, it's not something Maru specific. I imagine a lot of it is joking since Korean pros are close to one another. (I remember a funny interview when soO (paraphrased) said that Parting was just good at Protoss bullshit but Classic was good at Protoss bullshit and good too.) | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On February 19 2024 22:09 dysenterymd wrote: 100%, Korean pros complain about balance a lot more than foreigners, it's not something Maru specific. I imagine a lot of it is joking since Korean pros are close to one another. (I remember a funny interview when soO (paraphrased) said that Parting was just good at Protoss bullshit but Classic was good at Protoss bullshit and good too.) With players like Scarlett, Heromarine, formerly uThermal as the "face" of the foreign scene, I don't know if koreans complain MORE, but indeed they complain more than the average person thinks. | ||
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CerebrateHector
53 Posts
and the arguable GOAT. stop this crap already, there can only be one GOAT and thats Serral, case closed ... | ||
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Gantz023
31 Posts
If the shoulder-wrist pain or whatever is the result of something you did or are doing wrong and if you don't improve it, it will be bothering you to show your true potential. I just hope the damage is reversible. In another key point, and if it is very clear, Serral is several steps higher in mental strength, he is always confident in his game, or at least he makes us believe that, but what leads him to be incredibly consistent in his game. Finally, when Serral was asked about games he lost, for example, in master colisseum when he lost 0-2 against Maru for example, he was very clear in saying his mistakes... he made no excuses. and He showed that he was able to improve his early game. and BOOM 3-0 next day. Even though the infestors thing is broken, it was only in game 2, Maru made many mistakes, he doesn't mention any, poor management of run bys, poor selection of builds that don't work as expected, lack of scout, etc., etc. (who am I to criticize him, anyway) knowing that, if you want to win a tournament of this caliber, you probably have to defeat Serral at some point. you must prepare something for him TT. I just hope that Maru comes back Strong and analyzes his mistakes as he should, to improve. n conclusion, what I want to say is that Serral is definitely a better athlete, greetings !! | ||
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Agh
United States939 Posts
Most of what was said was in jest. The banter and needling was thoroughly entertaining, and it was good to get some insight on how he felt going into the series. Most of the hyperbole aside - it's pretty crazy to think that you have almost no chance to win. Good interview. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
On February 19 2024 21:44 youaremysin wrote: lmao the circlejerk of people jumping on Maru, taking everything at face value. Prematch itw Maru said "I'm not confident at all, it's Serral we are talking about" ofc he respects him. Why there was no handshake after the finals 4th game? Did Maru just ran a way from the situation? There are people (no doubt Terrans) who blame Serral for not properly handshaking Maru out there. We can circle jerk as much as we want and take things as their face value, when things related to this topic force to take them in their face value. My issue is lack of sportmanship from Maru's part, and I suspect strongly that there are more health issues than 'shoulder', and to dispel any misconceptions I consider Maru as one of absolute best ever player in StarCraft 2, with little bit higher consistency with psychological integrity, possibly the best ever. Let's see what the future brings. Said by Serral Fanboi with diagnosed (Childhood era) Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, Type 2 Bipolar Mental Disorder, Psychosomatic Anxiety Symptoms, and several other lesser co-morbidities. Only "Shoulder"? My ass. | ||
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Gina
241 Posts
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stilt
France2749 Posts
He seems pretty cold just like another finnish guy ! | ||
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Drahkn
191 Posts
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand asking Terran to have complete stealth detection everywhere at all times while moving around with a late game army or you risk losing your entire army in a single click is to strong. All that is being asked for is Infestors to be as easily spotted as a cloaked DT/Observer or Ghost on the map , they are spottable for a reason or it would be completely broken , and you are trying to tell me the same rules don't apply to Zerg because WHAT? | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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od1himself
Austria7 Posts
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goldensail
132 Posts
Those who insist infestors are not OP are doing just that. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1161 Posts
On February 22 2024 01:43 goldensail wrote: There's a Chinese saying "calling a deer a horse", to describe shameless misrepresentation of an obvious fact for one's own interests. Those who insist infestors are Fixed. | ||
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Tommy131313
Germany153 Posts
Perfect! Thanks!  | ||
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Tommy131313
Germany153 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On February 25 2024 00:52 Tommy131313 wrote: Regarding handshakes: isn't it the one who lost the game, that's coming over to gratulate the winner? Or am I getting something wrong? To me that’s the common, and indeed more sensible etiquette. Whatever the sport, give the guy who lost in maybe their most disappointing moment as a professional, or generally as a competitor a moment to compose themselves before congratulating their opponent. Doing it the other way around and it’s someone who’s walking on Cloud 9 having achieved something great kind of rubbing it in. | ||
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tincer
11 Posts
Also I'm shocked how most of the people react here... It seems to me, if you have physical issues, just dont talk about it, unless you want to be slaughtered by the community. Just say, you could have done better... people will like that. On how the games went, it seems very likely to me, that there was some issues, since maru had a complete breakdown in game 3 and 4. Also why should maru make it up... Also generally in live: If somebody says he feels bad, just believe it, in most cases its true. Don't just make up your own story in your mind. That's my opinion. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2628 Posts
On February 19 2024 11:20 Fango wrote: As for "Why does Serral not make excuses?", well he hasn't had a career plagued by injuries (that we know of), and has certainly never had to endure Zerg being weak at the pro level. Hell, there have even been conspiracy theories in recent years that Zerg players are in charge of the balance council. It's hard to blame Maru for making comments about Infestors when Ghosts were nerfed after Zerg player's complaints. People seem to forget Maru has been a proplayer since he was 12 years old, playing under korean team schedules. He has been playing easily 8+ hours everyday for over half his life. Its no surprise he has them, korean team houses were famous for being bad at physical care for their players while making them play every more than most foreigners do. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On February 25 2024 02:12 WombaT wrote: To me that’s the common, and indeed more sensible etiquette. Whatever the sport, give the guy who lost in maybe their most disappointing moment as a professional, or generally as a competitor a moment to compose themselves before congratulating their opponent. Doing it the other way around and it’s someone who’s walking on Cloud 9 having achieved something great kind of rubbing it in. This is another thing that impresses me about Serral. He's not afraid to buck the trend, to go against the grain. Winner walking over to offer handshake had never made sense to me, and always looks awkward when the loser looks like, "ehk, go away, just let me brood—ok fine whatever" lol. It looks most awkward when the handshake looks limp and lasts for about half a second, and then they immediately turned away from each other. It looks so much better when the loser walks over and offers handshake. Serral blazes his own trail. | ||
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Starcloud
137 Posts
On February 21 2024 18:21 od1himself wrote: I am completely on Maru's side. Infestors should definitely be nerfed. Even if an opponent of Serral was ahead, it changed when Infestors were coming out. The game was basically over. On February 22 2024 01:43 goldensail wrote: There's a Chinese saying "calling a deer a horse", to describe shameless misrepresentation of an obvious fact for one's own interests. Those who insist infestors are not OP are doing just that. Excuses, Excuses, Excuses, Excuses..... Katowice: Maru - Reynor: 2-0 Maru - Dark: 2-0 Masters Coliseum 7: Maru - Dark: 2-0 Maru - Serral: 2-0 And suddenly we need again an excuse why Maru cant perform in the big stages. Its quite funny, that this unbelievable player with like 500apm cant and wont make A SINGLE RAVEN in 10-15 minutes or even 40 minutes of gametime, because Terran just cant. It messes up everything. And infestors are so OP that you need to nerf a unit which gets killed when spotted in half a second and is almost impossible to get used cost-efficiently if you send them sharking around map. Now it happened in one game. Where in addition bit more luck with scans and the whole game would perhaps turned upside down and all would hail Maru and we wouldnt have these stupid discussions at all. You people that shout the infestor-nerf; Do you actually watch those games at all ? Maru did several other mistakes besides the infestor-drama. He played a very good game in which propably any other terran would have died long time ago, and he almost won that. If you turn the tables for a second - I know, impossible for you - wouldnt that indicate that Terran is very, very imbalanced, if the best player/zerg in the world cant win in a heavily zerg favoured map while mining more almost the whole game ?? He also did lot of mistakes in other maps too. Should we also nerf roaches ? Queens ? Hydras ? Lings ? All this whine just undermines the fact that Maru is an outstanding player, whos play is most times amazing to watch. He is a legendary player who shouldnt need 10 excuses every time he loses a series. He lost to a better player. It had nothing to do with balance. In his best days he can give Serral a run for his money and any other zerg will prolly crumble before his play. What goes to the interview, we should take that with grain of salt, since the culture and language is so different, that you cant make big conclusions from everything. However, I still have to say bit im dissapointed about the "balance whine" that Maru makes, be it cultural or not. Great players dont need to make excuses. Admit your loss to a better player, analyze the mistakes you made, improve and move on. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On March 06 2024 11:37 Starcloud wrote: Excuses, Excuses, Excuses, Excuses..... Katowice: Maru - Reynor: 2-0 Maru - Dark: 2-0 Masters Coliseum 7: Maru - Dark: 2-0 Maru - Serral: 2-0 And suddenly we need again an excuse why Maru cant perform in the big stages. Its quite funny, that this unbelievable player with like 500apm cant and wont make A SINGLE RAVEN in 10-15 minutes or even 40 minutes of gametime, because Terran just cant. It messes up everything. And infestors are so OP that you need to nerf a unit which gets killed when spotted in half a second and is almost impossible to get used cost-efficiently if you send them sharking around map. Now it happened in one game. Where in addition bit more luck with scans and the whole game would perhaps turned upside down and all would hail Maru and we wouldnt have these stupid discussions at all. You people that shout the infestor-nerf; Do you actually watch those games at all ? Maru did several other mistakes besides the infestor-drama. He played a very good game in which propably any other terran would have died long time ago, and he almost won that. If you turn the tables for a second - I know, impossible for you - wouldnt that indicate that Terran is very, very imbalanced, if the best player/zerg in the world cant win in a heavily zerg favoured map while mining more almost the whole game ?? He also did lot of mistakes in other maps too. Should we also nerf roaches ? Queens ? Hydras ? Lings ? All this whine just undermines the fact that Maru is an outstanding player, whos play is most times amazing to watch. He is a legendary player who shouldnt need 10 excuses every time he loses a series. He lost to a better player. It had nothing to do with balance. In his best days he can give Serral a run for his money and any other zerg will prolly crumble before his play. What goes to the interview, we should take that with grain of salt, since the culture and language is so different, that you cant make big conclusions from everything. However, I still have to say bit im dissapointed about the "balance whine" that Maru makes, be it cultural or not. Great players dont need to make excuses. Admit your loss to a better player, analyze the mistakes you made, improve and move on. Maru’s kind of always been a glass half empty negative nancy in interviews forever, I wouldn’t read a huge amount into it. He could be in the middle of winning 4 Code S titles in a row and he’ll still be saying he’s not playing that well and everything is super hard. I think it’s more his fans who make excuse after excuse rather than the man himself. As tincer so eloquently said you’re a bit damned if you do, damned if you don’t too. If you’re fully honest about physical or mental issues and how they’re impacting you, people often lay the charge that you’re making excuses. But if you go the wall of silence and start having bad results without that explanation, people will start speculating that you’re slumping or lacking motivation or whatever. It’s also an interview quite shortly after Maru yet again failed to tick off the one box he hasn’t ticked in winning one of these WC events, so perhaps he’s still in the disappointed/processing stage. He also said for example that even in his personal assessment if he was absolutely 100% in his absolute best shape that he’d give himself at best a 50/50 shot against Serral, so I don’t feel he’s really disrespecting the lad and his skill at all. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15929 Posts
On March 06 2024 11:37 Starcloud wrote: And suddenly we need again an excuse why Maru cant perform in the big stages. Its quite funny, that this unbelievable player with like 500apm cant and wont make A SINGLE RAVEN in 10-15 minutes or even 40 minutes of gametime, because Terran just cant. It messes up everything. This is a braindead take. Maru doesn't build Ravens in lategame, Clem doesn't, Cure doesn't, ByuN doesn't, Gumiho doesn't. But a random TL user thinks he understands the game better than all those players and tells them what they are all doing wrong | ||
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Gilgamesh_
33 Posts
On March 06 2024 20:06 Charoisaur wrote: This is a braindead take. Maru doesn't build Ravens in lategame, Clem doesn't, Cure doesn't, ByuN doesn't, Gumiho doesn't. But a random TL user thinks he understands the game better than all those players and tells them what they are all doing wrong While obviously the takes presented here are usually very simplified from a pro players' perspective, this would not be the first time that things advocated in this forum actually get established in-game much later ;-) | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On March 06 2024 22:33 Gilgamesh_ wrote: Often this "much later" includes different patch / balance / meta / maps though.While obviously the takes presented here are usually very simplified from a pro players' perspective, this would not be the first time that things advocated in this forum actually get established in-game much later ;-) | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15929 Posts
On March 06 2024 22:33 Gilgamesh_ wrote: While obviously the takes presented here are usually very simplified from a pro players' perspective, this would not be the first time that things advocated in this forum actually get established in-game much later ;-) even a broken clock is right twice a day, that doesn't justify the confidence this user has in thinking only he has the magical solution for dealing with burrowed Infestors that pro players just haven't figured out | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10332 Posts
Ofc this doesn't mean that a diamond player knows better than a pro. Pros are good at the things they know are most important, but it doesn't mean that a lower player can't know of a good idea that they could incorporate if they had the time and energy to do so. The current top KR Terrans don't do it sure, but it's still a small sample size. With a smaller scene, it's more likely there are good and reasonable things to do but because there are fewer players there are also fewer players to copy new ideas from. With a huge scene, the game can develop faster. Now if pros did have a reason against it though, it might be that they've found that building just 1 Raven leads to it being Abducted, and it's not worth making multiple Ravens which takes up supply when they could build ghosts for about the same cost and supply too. And scans are free and something they use for vision in general anyways, not just detection. | ||
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Starcloud
137 Posts
On March 06 2024 20:06 Charoisaur wrote: This is a braindead take. Maru doesn't build Ravens in lategame, Clem doesn't, Cure doesn't, ByuN doesn't, Gumiho doesn't. But a random TL user thinks he understands the game better than all those players and tells them what they are all doing wrong Well, maybe they should start thinking about adding one, if the infestors are that big of a problem in the matchup ?  You didnt respond what is the major problem about building a raven or two ? ...Or....Maybe they dont build one because infestors arent a problem in the first place ? Again, is all of this whine because of one game ? In which the infestors played only one part. There still isnt any logical reasoning behind the fact that infestors should be nerfed. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17671 Posts
On March 06 2024 22:40 ZeroByte13 wrote: Often this "much later" includes different patch / balance / meta / maps though. Yeah I think usually the things the community is calling for will get buffed (in a patch or maps), because the people making the patches and the maps also count as part of the community and they probably want to see the same things happen | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On March 07 2024 01:16 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I mean, I agree that Pro players need a more nuanced solution than just the simplified idea of "add a Raven sometime somehow in the later parts of the game". But it really isn't so crazy or arrogant to suggest building a Raven... you don't need to be a pro to say that it could easily pay off, and there are often things pros take a while to incorporate, they aren't always aware of the smart and best things to do. (MVP for example didn't stack his BCs and EMP them once vs Squirtle to stop them from being mass feedback'd, which was a tactic and used by other pros, although not super commonly). Ofc this doesn't mean that a diamond player knows better than a pro. Pros are good at the things they know are most important, but it doesn't mean that a lower player can't know of a good idea that they could incorporate if they had the time and energy to do so. The current top KR Terrans don't do it sure, but it's still a small sample size. With a smaller scene, it's more likely there are good and reasonable things to do but because there are fewer players there are also fewer players to copy new ideas from. With a huge scene, the game can develop faster. Now if pros did have a reason against it though, it might be that they've found that building just 1 Raven leads to it being Abducted, and it's not worth making multiple Ravens which takes up supply when they could build ghosts for about the same cost and supply too. And scans are free and something they use for vision in general anyways, not just detection. I’d love to hear the reasons, I’m sure there are legitimate ones but it does feel Ravens would give a lot of value even aside from this particular problem. If I were to guess it’s a combo of: 1. It’s a pretty easily sniped unit. 2. Adding a Raven at that phase of the game makes an already technical army comp even more technical on the control side. 3. Awkwardness of production. Although really in a split map high eco game I don’t see one extra Port and a tech lab as a huge deal. And it gives you a +1 on your medivac replenishment if you lose a bunch at once. 4. It may not solve the problem you’re trying to fix anyway. If Maru was narrowly missing scans when he knew My half a dollar anyway, it does still feel intuitively to me an underused unit given how critical creep control is in the matchup but equally I have seen progamers experiment with it in that capacity and it never really took hold, so there must be some good reasons as to why. | ||
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