EPTOn February 14 2024 05:01 WombaT wrote:
Byun won a Starleague and a WC with reapers and the 2/1/1.
Byun won a Starleague and a WC with reapers and the 2/1/1.
fixed
The death of SC2 as a competitive e-sport - Page 5
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Balance threads suck.. But, just like you need to have a beer and bitch about work on a Friday afternoon, sometimes you gotta have a place to post your unreasonable balance takes on TL. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1916 Posts
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MyLovelyLurker
France756 Posts
A. We've already established years ago (might be pre-covid, would need to dig threads) we need to look at offline winrates vs Koreans if we don't want to overweigh weeklies and minor international tournaments. Aligulac is a biased estimator because of this, but you can de-bias if you write some code and crunch the numbers. On that basis, Serral is still the best and most consistent player ever, by a mile. I'll write an article next week if I find time. B. Stop with the offending logic of the 7-1 Clem+Maru combined win. He also did that to Dark+Reynor (exactly 7-1 between Kato and Master's Coliseum). By that logic, Zerg is underpowered and needs a buff. It's all about the aggregated winrate, and every attempt to discredit a single datapoint in isolation is an insult to every previous tournament that Serral has won (and their organiser). At that rate, that's basically the whole community. | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2633 Posts
On February 14 2024 01:26 CerebrateHector wrote: I Really have to disagree here tho, its by their own doing.. Terran stubborness to make a Raven ...., Maru even made like 10 turrets everywhere instead of just creating a freaking Raven .... Tell me you don't play Terran without telling me you don't play Terran. Ah jeez, maybe all these Pro Terrans players are just dumb and should've listened to a random guy in the chat instead. You think maybe there might be a reason why people don't make Ravens late game against Zerg? | ||
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iRkSupperman
Norway140 Posts
On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote: The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 14 2024 07:29 Zambrah wrote: Protoss fan here, please dont use Protoss' crappy balance to lend credibility to Terran tears, Terran tears are already the most valuable kind. To be fair terran tears has been flooding the forums since the beginning of WOL. That’s how they got blizzard to constantly nerf zerg/toss to compensate the terrans lack of skills compare to their peers We Protoss take nerfs like a champ on the chin. We use our collectively minds to find a new creative builds until that gets nerfed to the ground as well. Rinse and repeat | ||
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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote: So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. | ||
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Turbovolver
Australia2396 Posts
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 14 2024 07:21 Brutaxilos wrote: Tell me you don't play Terran without telling me you don't play Terran. Ah jeez, maybe all these Pro Terrans players are just dumb and should've listened to a random guy in the chat instead. You think maybe there might be a reason why people don't make Ravens late game against Zerg? Consider how dumb these pro terrans decison making are, ya they should listen to a random guy. Let’s keep doing the same thing that has proven to be ineffective (ie not building a raven ) Let’s build MORE medivac instead of a raven at the ultra late game. Ultra late game spellcaster > most units Tell us you don’t understand the game without telling us you don’t understand | ||
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jodljodl
177 Posts
On February 14 2024 15:16 FFXthebest wrote: Consider how dumb these pro terrans decison making are, ya they should listen to a random guy. Let’s keep doing the same thing that has proven to be ineffective (ie not building a raven ) Let’s build MORE medivac instead of a raven at the ultra late game. Ultra late game spellcaster > most units Tell us you don’t understand the game without telling us you don’t understand Except for the banter I totally agree. Just because something isn't part of the meta doesn't make it a poor strategy. One example from this tournament actually. Serral spreading creep with queens in overlord. This has been possible for years but is not part of the meta. Why? Idk. Probably because it's just one more thing on top of the heap of other things u have to execute; making the game even harder. I suspect that's also the reason why ravens aren't part of the meta in any ultra late game composition. It's just really hard to execute. Or is there any other reason why you wouldn't want AAM in any big engagement? Minus 2 armor upgrades on a big chunk of the enemy army in any battle you take (IF you can execute it)... like, why not? :> | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7138 Posts
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Agh
United States1042 Posts
On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote: He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. My take is that unless the prize pool is significant enough that he would be absolutely foolish to ignore - he has nothing to gain by competing at 'lan' events. One might argue this event falls into that category but it still might not be worth it for him. Absolute worse case I think it's fair to assume he breaks even if he covered everything himself out of pocket. Realistically he makes a few thousand dollars even with a 'poor' performance by our standards. The only real thing he'd gain in these situations is experience. Only he can place value on that. Perhaps he doesn't see himself playing that much longer. Maybe he has crippling anxiety. Regardless it doesn't really matter. His skill is clearly visible in the games we do get to see of him and it doesn't matter the location. To dismiss the notion he isn't a top player because he doesn't want to attend a live event is ludicrous. I'd certainly implore him to consider attending one. If nothing else just for the experience outside of the game. The events I attended are some of the fondest memories I have. | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
Being a « ladder » / EPT cup hero is worthless if you want to cement yourself as a good player in StarCraft. HeroMarine did not do well these last few months in EPT cups, yet guess what? He made freaking top 8. That is a huge achievement. Also guess why aligulac rating is inflated? Look at the games between Cure and HeroMarine. Their rating isn’t much different, yet there was a visible gap in those games. Cure just looked at what HeroMarine did to Gumiho, it was enough to grasp how to prepare vs what HM has in store: relatively quick and easy 2-0. Then he does a 2rax because he can afford to and wins in less than 4 minutes against the 2nd best Terran in Europe. That’s insane to be able to do that « this easily ». | ||
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Agh
United States1042 Posts
On February 14 2024 15:16 FFXthebest wrote: Consider how dumb these pro terrans decison making are, ya they should listen to a random guy. Let’s keep doing the same thing that has proven to be ineffective (ie not building a raven ) Let’s build MORE medivac instead of a raven at the ultra late game. Ultra late game spellcaster > most units Tell us you don’t understand the game without telling us you don’t understand There is a pretty clear reason for not building the ravens. I can guarantee that the players and even that guy understand the game far more than you, judging from your comments. Maybe you're just new, or perhaps some prodigy we'll see later on, but the simple answer is if something is that easy, impactful, or game altering then players would have begun incorporating it. The reality is in these situations, if you're somehow in their ear and get them to build a raven, they're just going to lose even harder. Players will do things when and if they are able to do it. Visible execution gaps and things like that highlight the beauty in Serral's play. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12421 Posts
On February 14 2024 19:41 Poopi wrote: I mean if the guy can’t even bring himself to play offline, he would never be able to handle the nerves that come with offline play. Being an online is worthless in Halo and even an insult compared to being able to perform on LAN. Dunno why people give that much credit to MaxPax: even during « mere » important online tournaments, more often than not he does not perform as well as expected, even worse than ShoWTimE. Being a « ladder » / EPT cup hero is worthless if you want to cement yourself as a good player in StarCraft. HeroMarine did not do well these last few months in EPT cups, yet guess what? He made freaking top 8. That is a huge achievement. Also guess why aligulac rating is inflated? Look at the games between Cure and HeroMarine. Their rating isn’t much different, yet there was a visible gap in those games. Cure just looked at what HeroMarine did to Gumiho, it was enough to grasp how to prepare vs what HM has in store: relatively quick and easy 2-0. Then he does a 2rax because he can afford to and wins in less than 4 minutes against the 2nd best Terran in Europe. That’s insane to be able to do that « this easily ». The reason why people hype up Maxpax is because when you watch him play vs Clem or Dark, it's very often competitive games, in a way that no other protoss can make it look apart from herO, and herO's playstyle is harder to root for because it doesn't make any sense. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7138 Posts
On February 14 2024 20:00 Agh wrote: There is a pretty clear reason for not building the ravens. I can guarantee that the players and even that guy understand the game far more than you, judging from your comments. Maybe you're just new, or perhaps some prodigy we'll see later on, but the simple answer is if something is that easy, impactful, or game altering then players would have begun incorporating it. The reality is in these situations, if you're somehow in their ear and get them to build a raven, they're just going to lose even harder. Players will do things when and if they are able to do it. Visible execution gaps and things like that highlight the beauty in Serral's play. I mean there must be a reason. If you know this "pretty clear reason", please do enlighten us On February 14 2024 19:41 Poopi wrote: I mean if the guy can’t even bring himself to play offline, he would never be able to handle the nerves that come with offline play. Being an online is worthless in Halo and even an insult compared to being able to perform on LAN. Dunno why people give that much credit to MaxPax: even during « mere » important online tournaments, more often than not he does not perform as well as expected, even worse than ShoWTimE. Being a « ladder » / EPT cup hero is worthless if you want to cement yourself as a good player in StarCraft. HeroMarine did not do well these last few months in EPT cups, yet guess what? He made freaking top 8. That is a huge achievement. Also guess why aligulac rating is inflated? Look at the games between Cure and HeroMarine. Their rating isn’t much different, yet there was a visible gap in those games. Cure just looked at what HeroMarine did to Gumiho, it was enough to grasp how to prepare vs what HM has in store: relatively quick and easy 2-0. Then he does a 2rax because he can afford to and wins in less than 4 minutes against the 2nd best Terran in Europe. That’s insane to be able to do that « this easily ». The same thing Serral did to Maru. He saw him playing vs Dark in group stage and finished him "quick and easy" On a more serious note, Cure is a TvT monster vs everyone but Maru. And even in those games he had the advantage at times but could never end it | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
On February 14 2024 03:03 JJH777 wrote: I wish I could blame balance for Maru's loss but if I'm being honest I can't anymore. 2023 and now 2024 is the first time the "it's just Serral" crowd was actually correct. Without Serral Zerg wouldn't have done as bad as Toss but it would have been a mediocre performance for sure and Terran would have outperformed Zerg dramatically. Even if you remove Maru and Serral together. He is unbelievably good right now. I do think many of his past results including his other Kato did have significant balance issues though and reverse was true back then. If you removed Maru and Serral together it was Terran that was hurt far worse. Looking at their series Maru's problem was the same here as it has been in most of his international losses for the last few years including to Cyan in this very event. He just gets read and predicted so easily and then tilta. Against most players he is so much better that it doesn't matter but every now and then someone like Cyan will make him look like a fool with a couple perfect builds. And against Serral he of course just can't afford to get read like this at all. Serral seemed to know that those roach builds in games 1 and 3 would kill him on those maps at those moments. It was perfect build choices against how Maru was playing. Maru needs to be less predictable. In their one macro game Maru actually looked like the better player imo if it was any map that was possible to split he would have won. Even without the map split he probably could have won if his control was just a bit better. 2018 Maru wins that game. It's a shame Terran is so hard on players bodies. Every Terran great has had extreme wrist/shoulder issues which has led to noticeable mechanical loss. The occasional Zerg has too but nowhere to the same extent. If Clem starts having wrist/shoulder issues in the next couple years I think it becomes definitive that there is just something about Terran that makes it impossible to play long term without breaking your body. Game 4 was just sad. Maru was clearly tilted and ready for the series to be done. He had given up and didn't care enough to go for a respectable match score. It's sad because that's the one game he actually got a big lead in. Put him in a similar position in game 1 or 2 and he wins for sure but he had already decided he was done. It's unfortunate because a 4-1 or 4-2 would have been a far more fun series. This is 20/20 hindsigth. Maru has the most variety of openers and build orders and his disposal and he is hard ot read. You can point out how Serral plan worked perfectly ( he probabnly watched rogue vs Maru ) because it did. Similarly, you could talk how Maru plan worked beautifully against Reynor and do the reverse analysis as you did. | ||
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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On February 14 2024 19:41 Poopi wrote: I mean if the guy can’t even bring himself to play offline, he would never be able to handle the nerves that come with offline play. Being an online is worthless in Halo and even an insult compared to being able to perform on LAN. Dunno why people give that much credit to MaxPax: even during « mere » important online tournaments, more often than not he does not perform as well as expected, even worse than ShoWTimE. Being a « ladder » / EPT cup hero is worthless if you want to cement yourself as a good player in StarCraft. HeroMarine did not do well these last few months in EPT cups, yet guess what? He made freaking top 8. That is a huge achievement. Also guess why aligulac rating is inflated? Look at the games between Cure and HeroMarine. Their rating isn’t much different, yet there was a visible gap in those games. Cure just looked at what HeroMarine did to Gumiho, it was enough to grasp how to prepare vs what HM has in store: relatively quick and easy 2-0. Then he does a 2rax because he can afford to and wins in less than 4 minutes against the 2nd best Terran in Europe. That’s insane to be able to do that « this easily ». I don't think that you can look at a single Bo5 series and make the sweeping conclusion that the ratings are inflated. If you look at the last year, since January 2023 through now, his record looks perfectly respectable to me; 20–19 in games and 8–6 against Koreans in offline tournaments. There aren't many offline events in which he gets a chance to play Koreans but going essentially 50–50 against the kind of competition that makes it to the big events isn't bad. And it's not like online is completely incommensurate with offline, either. In the same period, against Koreans online, his record is 53–54 in games and 17–20 in matches. It's basically a wash with his offline performance. There's more of a difference in his performance vs non-Koreans in off vs online: (56–26; 68.29%) and (494–175; 73.84%). But again, it's not wildly different, especially in matches (79.51% vs 79.31%). I'm not going to sit here and tell you that online is as impressive as offline. I know it's not. But I do think that performance online against top competition is at least suggestive of your potential against that same level of competition offline. Isn't it the case that, MaxPax aside, the same people who are expected to perform well at offline events also perform well online? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5219 Posts
On February 13 2024 01:19 goldensail wrote: When SC2 was introduced, Terran's strength was in defense. I think you lost your argument here. When SC2 was released, Terran players would all-in off one base with SCV's in their army and crush everything in their path. Maps were tiny... a Siege Tank at the natural of Steppes of War could hit the center of the map, and tanks did 60 damage to all targets when in siege mode. The sheer number of all-in builds Terran would perform off one base with success was dizzying. Suffice to say...Terran's strength was not defense. The rest of the argument isn't based in reality either unfortunately. This is a ranting balance whine thread. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
I don't know what is the reason but it just always happens. | ||
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