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Balance threads suck.. But, just like you need to have a beer and bitch about work on a Friday afternoon, sometimes you gotta have a place to post your unreasonable balance takes on TL. |
On February 13 2024 02:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. I mean I really feel Aligulac needs a filter of some kind so you get a parallel ranking that just includes major/premier competition. It’s still a great tool for lots of things but going to its ranking list only to see MaxPax as the second best player in the world, just feels intuitively off to me.
Dude if Maxpax played offline protoss would win everything (forget the fact that Maxpax hasn't won shit other than weekly cups online)
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Serral was the best. He outsmarted Maru in the build order department in all of the games. Literally only 1 map went late
Although I do agree Zerg played like that is imba, especially on map like that. If they got ghosts nerfed because zergs struggled then they need to nerf Infestors, there's no counterplay to them. Maru rushed 7 orbitals and scanned his army 3x before fights and STILL got hit with fungals.
Or at the very least don't let maps like that in the pool. But Serral rightfully chose that map to play lategame knowing he shouldn't lose. There's a reason he chose to allin on Maru's map picks, even Reynor said Maru wins the split map
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 13 2024 03:02 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 02:59 WombaT wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. I mean I really feel Aligulac needs a filter of some kind so you get a parallel ranking that just includes major/premier competition. It’s still a great tool for lots of things but going to its ranking list only to see MaxPax as the second best player in the world, just feels intuitively off to me. Dude if Maxpax played offline protoss would win everything (forget the fact that Maxpax hasn't won shit other than weekly cups online)
Aye, or even consistently making top 4 in Euro regionals. Or going deep consistently in online internationals at major/premier level with good fields.
It’s frustrating, he’s a great talent and it’s not remotely his fault but people go so ridiculously overboard on Maximus Paximus it’s unreal.
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Serral was just better than Maru, and everyone else, plain and simple. And this is absolutely not a case of Maru playing the the limit of what is possible since a peak Maru was better than what we've seen. If you're really a fanboy and followed him you can't deny he is not as fast, as sharp as he used to be.
And if you watch that game 2 again, while being incredibly good, you can still find many decision and action that were not that good. That would not need inhuman level to correct, just a bit crispier. And at these level that all that matter.
Also it's funny that you talk about Clem and Maru as being the peak of what's possible, since both of them would benefit the actual strengh of the other : Maru would need that speed and precision from Clem, Clem would need the decision making and methodical play from Maru. None of them got it all.
And this is what Serral is atm, the combination of the best, micro, macro, decision making, speed, scouting, strategy etc
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I think they nerfed banelings correctly and Serral still stands out far and above all other Zergs and all other players. He is the best. I wish they would add a few units of health or shield to Zealots and Stalkers. In Brood War scouting a few Zealots together used to give me nightmares. In SC2, the Zealots are soft and cuddly marshmellow men.
DISCLAIMER: i play 50% of the time as Terran and 50% of the time as Random.
On February 13 2024 02:28 MJG wrote:I don't mind. It freed up my Sunday because all the Protoss had been eliminated. Incidentally, The Iron Claw is a really good movie. 
Fritz Von Erich is pure evil. btw, suicide amongst american men is at an 80 year high.
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Was Oliveira the best player in the world after winning Katowice?
Tournament wins are very disconnected from who the best player is.
Ofc Maxpax hasn't won any tournaments you deem prestigious, he hasn't attended any, he'd probably need to attend many in order to win 1 anyways....
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On February 13 2024 03:52 LostUsername100 wrote:
Was Oliveira the best player in the world after winning Katowice?
Tournament wins are very disconnected from who the best player is.
Ofc Maxpax hasn't won any tournaments you deem prestigious, he hasn't attended any, he'd probably need to attend many in order to win 1 anyways....
When you start to stack these wins a pattern emerges...
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On February 13 2024 03:54 youaremysin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 03:52 LostUsername100 wrote:
Was Oliveira the best player in the world after winning Katowice?
Tournament wins are very disconnected from who the best player is.
Ofc Maxpax hasn't won any tournaments you deem prestigious, he hasn't attended any, he'd probably need to attend many in order to win 1 anyways....
When you start to stack these wins a pattern emerges...
You should look at winning in general not just tournament wins specially not just the tournaments you subjectively care about, like they're playing another game on weeklies.
Maxpax is a strong player, maybe if he attended those other tournaments he might win some of them.
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On February 13 2024 01:19 goldensail wrote:
One common argument is if Zerg is OP as a race, why aren't Reynor and Dark as dominant as Serral - but the fact is they already HAVE BEEN winning premier events, and Serral, being the best Zerg, is taking advantage of spellcasters to even greater extent. There's a human limit to what Terran players can do and it's simply impossible to deal with a master Zerg who can fully abuse OP units. Clearly not everyone can play Zerg like Serral, but the point is it's POSSIBLE, and Serral is using thIs advantage to dominate the game to an extent that is IMPOSSIBLE for other races to deal with.
This is my favorite bit out of this absurdity. "Reynor and Dark did poorly this tournament, but they have won tournaments in the past (I believe on different patches?), so clearly their race is OP!"
So...Clem and Maru have never won anything?
Also funny to blab on about competitive integrity and then wanting to nerf an entire race because of one player. One. If you nerf Serral on a level he would get destroyed in the Ro12, no other Zerg would even reach the close-qualifier for these kind of events. The imba-imba-IMBA race Zerg had literally the least representation at Katowice.
I know, as a korean elitist and/or Maru-Fanboy (not looking at any particular TL-Writer or something) "Zerg OP roflrofl" is literally your only saving grace, but maybe, just maybe, accept the fact that Serral "right now" (as in the last six years, but the last two especially) is above the curve. Doesn't mean he can't be beaten, just means the very best need to play their very best. And that is a thing you might find hard to accept: Maru didn't play "like a god" in that series, except for the 2nd Map. On all three other maps, Serral was always one step ahead.
Can we stop the copium at some point? In Germany, there is a saying that translates to "Skill is, when Luck becomes a regular thing". So really, at some point you might just have to face the music here...
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 13 2024 03:52 LostUsername100 wrote:
Was Oliveira the best player in the world after winning Katowice?
Tournament wins are very disconnected from who the best player is.
Ofc Maxpax hasn't won any tournaments you deem prestigious, he hasn't attended any, he'd probably need to attend many in order to win 1 anyways....
If we wanted to show who was the most latently skilled and consistent player, we’d throw a couple of million into each server and dish out prize money after 6 months/a year based on ladder rankings. I actually think that would be pretty cool, albeit unlikely.
But as we don’t do that, people aren’t looking at ladder MMRs to make tournament predictions, because everyone knows pros use it to keep themselves ticking over, experiment and stay in form for the next tournament that rolls around.
Weekly cups are a step up from that, with some more stakes but pros still use them for much the same reasons.
There are flaws in the odd tournament defining who’s the best, most skilled player around sure, but that’s always been the bedrock of SC2’s pro scene and what they prioritise.
Every sport going has tales of the training ground monster, or excellent practice partner who clearly has the skill, but couldn’t bring it to the stages that count. Hell SC2 has a fair few ladder monsters, or guys who always get shoutouts as great practice partners even when they’re not making a dent in tournaments.
Hell MaxPax can still not go to offline events, but if he’s to be in the conversation he has to make that step up and keep going deep in the likes of EU regionals, and the international tournaments that he can play in.
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On February 13 2024 04:07 LostUsername100 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 03:54 youaremysin wrote:On February 13 2024 03:52 LostUsername100 wrote:
Was Oliveira the best player in the world after winning Katowice?
Tournament wins are very disconnected from who the best player is.
Ofc Maxpax hasn't won any tournaments you deem prestigious, he hasn't attended any, he'd probably need to attend many in order to win 1 anyways....
When you start to stack these wins a pattern emerges... You should look at winning in general not just tournament wins specially not just the tournaments you subjectively care about, like they're playing another game on weeklies. Maxpax is a strong player, maybe if he attended those other tournaments he might win some of them.
I think there is a very big difference between the weeklies and offline tournaments, let alone Katowice or other world championship tier tournaments. Sure, it's the same game, but players will train harder before, play more mind games, there are often more bo5+ series and they will use refined build orders. And then there is the pressure of an offline competition.
It's not at all the same. And there have always been players who have been strong in one format but not the other.
Maxipaxi is strong, and I would love to see him at offline events. But I think he would have to learn how to play at his best level there.
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Hahahaha.
OP is trolling, of course, but comically enough, the level of copium presented is not too far from that seriously embraced by a certain minor share of the community.
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Those are some great points you guys brought out and I agree with most of what you guys have said if not everything.
But Aligulac's goal is predicting winners in SC2 games, in weeklies they're still playing SC2, yes it's possible maxpax will perform worst in big offline tournaments, but until he goes there we have no way of telling.
If there was money to be made on the ladder, and you got rid of smurfing, I'd absolutely judge who the best players are by who is #1 on the ladder.
PS:Serral's Aligulac ranking got questioned for the longest time, so did Clem's.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 13 2024 04:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 01:19 goldensail wrote:
One common argument is if Zerg is OP as a race, why aren't Reynor and Dark as dominant as Serral - but the fact is they already HAVE BEEN winning premier events, and Serral, being the best Zerg, is taking advantage of spellcasters to even greater extent. There's a human limit to what Terran players can do and it's simply impossible to deal with a master Zerg who can fully abuse OP units. Clearly not everyone can play Zerg like Serral, but the point is it's POSSIBLE, and Serral is using thIs advantage to dominate the game to an extent that is IMPOSSIBLE for other races to deal with.
This is my favorite bit out of this absurdity. "Reynor and Dark did poorly this tournament, but they have won tournaments in the past (I believe on different patches?), so clearly their race is OP!" So...Clem and Maru have never won anything? Also funny to blab on about competitive integrity and then wanting to nerf an entire race because of one player. One. If you nerf Serral on a level he would get destroyed in the Ro12, no other Zerg would even reach the close-qualifier for these kind of events. The imba-imba-IMBA race Zerg had literally the least representation at Katowice. I know, as a korean elitist and/or Maru-Fanboy (not looking at any particular TL-Writer or something) "Zerg OP roflrofl" is literally your only saving grace, but maybe, just maybe, accept the fact that Serral "right now" (as in the last six years, but the last two especially) is above the curve. Doesn't mean he can't be beaten, just means the very best need to play their very best. And that is a thing you might find hard to accept: Maru didn't play "like a god" in that series, except for the 2nd Map. On all three other maps, Serral was always one step ahead. Can we stop the copium at some point? In Germany, there is a saying that translates to "Skill is, when Luck becomes a regular thing". So really, at some point you might just have to face the music here...
What is the actual German for that? It’s such a melodious language. Are you German yourself? I’d always assumed French, I have no idea as to why mind.
Back to your point, how do you nerf one guy? Before people bring up Byun’s reapers, or Maru’s ravens, there is a slight difference. Those guys were pulling strategies off that nobody else could, so nuking them didn’t affect the rest of the Terran collective. Serral is playing, more or less the same stragegies as the rest of the swarm, merely better. So you can’t nerf him in isolation, there’ll be a ripple effect.
I just rewatched the Solar/Clem series for example, some excellent StarCraft from both players there, and Serral taking him on and then Serral/Maru. When properly paying attention you start to notice a few things:
1. Solar F2s his army a lot more when scrambling to defend, not always, but noticeably more than Serral does.
2. Solar eats a couple of mine hits here or there. Serral almost never, ever does. No diss on Solar, if you watch games from Innovation’s first, terrifying parade-pushing incarnation, Solar’s anti-mine micro is still way better than anything from then.
3. Solar got some joy with burrowed Infestor play, but his infestors weren’t always synced with the army as well as Serral’s so he couldn’t capitalise as much, his setup isn’t quite as elegant.
4. Solar struggled to make much hay with nydus play, Serral slightly less so. Serral times his positioning so he can draw attention away at just the right moment, and maybe his multitasking is just that little bit cleaner.
5. Solar’s macro and creep spread are top-notch, Serral’s are a bit better again. Serral found the time to load an overlord with Queens just to start spreading creep at the top of the map against Maru, that little kind of thing is cute too.
6. Serral actually utilises droperlords rather well, most other top Zergs do judiciously timed runbys on the ground just as well as Serral can, but Serral asks that slightly different question and grabs a bit of extra value by asking that one extra question.
And this is Solar, since Rogue departed he’s clearly been a top 4 Zerg, I’m certainly not being overly critical of his play, but these are the kind of edges Serral gains by being Serral.
With the replay pack released I may delve even deeper, that is one nice thing about IEMs, plenty of study material!
I’m not even opposed to a slight Zerg nerf, but what do you nerf?
One suggestion I heard was cut the Queen’s anti-ground range by 1, so they’re just a little less effective as a barrier against pokes. Add a little off-creep speed as compensation. At first glance, doesn’t seem a terrible idea but it has quite a lot of knock-ons. Sure maybe it lets bio push a bit more boldly and keep a Zerg honest, but does it push the needle too far and make hellion/cyclone too abusive? Does it make sniping banelings in early game ZvZ that little bit too difficult?
Just one example but it’s tough to think of something to nerf when balance is maybe not perfect, but pretty close. Creep maybe? But even with creep as it is the matchup is relatively balanced, a tweak too far and it potentially swings way too far in the other direction.
I think there’s an additional problem, which is balancing by maps, a suggestion many are making, and I have too. I may make a separate thread but, given every map is played in every matchup, how do you make better TvZ maps that don’t negatively effect PvT? Which IMO is already a harder matchup at the top level than TvZ to begin with.
Smaller maps, tighter, more chokey areas, more high/low ground zones would help TvZ absolutely. In PvT smaller maps will just be a net negative for Toss unless there’s some clever mapmaker magic. And, depending where they are situated chokey areas and low/high ground will benefit one or the other. Toss may have an easier time holding certain bases, or it makes tank pushes really hard to deal with.
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Northern Ireland26032 Posts
On February 13 2024 04:35 LostUsername100 wrote:
Those are some great points you guys brought out and I agree with most of what you guys have said if not everything.
But Aligulac's goal is predicting winners in SC2 games, in weeklies they're still playing SC2, yes it's possible maxpax will perform worst in big offline tournaments, but until he goes there we have no way of telling.
If there was money to be made on the ladder, and you got rid of smurfing, I'd absolutely judge who the best players are by who is #1 on the ladder.
PS:Serral's Aligulac ranking got questioned for the longest time, so did Clem's.
Hey you’re copying my point :p Nah I kid.
The thing with SC2 is it’s very, very fast and demanding. So I think how seriously people take a particular venue of playing does have a pretty appreciable impact.
In a crude sense there is probably a bigger gap in level between ladder Serral and the Serral that showed up for the Master’s Colosseum warmup into Katowice, than there is between say, Magnus Carlsen playing casual chess and playing in a high-stakes tournament.
Even the Aligulac crew concede that they can’t really model for these kind of intangibles.
As I said it’s a fantastic tool, but it has limitations too. I’d love to crunch the numbers but alas am lazy, I’d wager that knowledgable TLers probably outperform Aligulac when it comes to predicting winners in Liquibets, because they can better account for those intangibles, even if it’s purely by gut feel.
Would be an interesting thing to find out if anyone is inspired to check!
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On February 13 2024 05:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 04:35 LostUsername100 wrote:
Those are some great points you guys brought out and I agree with most of what you guys have said if not everything.
But Aligulac's goal is predicting winners in SC2 games, in weeklies they're still playing SC2, yes it's possible maxpax will perform worst in big offline tournaments, but until he goes there we have no way of telling.
If there was money to be made on the ladder, and you got rid of smurfing, I'd absolutely judge who the best players are by who is #1 on the ladder.
PS:Serral's Aligulac ranking got questioned for the longest time, so did Clem's. Hey you’re copying my point :p Nah I kid. The thing with SC2 is it’s very, very fast and demanding. So I think how seriously people take a particular venue of playing does have a pretty appreciable impact. In a crude sense there is probably a bigger gap in level between ladder Serral and the Serral that showed up for the Master’s Colosseum warmup into Katowice, than there is between say, Magnus Carlsen playing casual chess and playing in a high-stakes tournament. Even the Aligulac crew concede that they can’t really model for these kind of intangibles. As I said it’s a fantastic tool, but it has limitations too. I’d love to crunch the numbers but alas am lazy, I’d wager that knowledgable TLers probably outperform Aligulac when it comes to predicting winners in Liquibets, because they can better account for those intangibles, even if it’s purely by gut feel. Would be an interesting thing to find out if anyone is inspired to check!
" I’d love to crunch the numbers but alas am lazy, I’d wager that knowledgable TLers probably outperform Aligulac when it comes to predicting winners in Liquibets, because they can better account for those intangibles, even if it’s purely by gut feel. "
AFAIK~ the creator of aligulac was #1 on liquibet way back in the day by just inputting whatever aligulac said.
At the moment Im guessing people use it as a baseline to make predictions for sure.
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On February 13 2024 04:59 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 04:08 Balnazza wrote:On February 13 2024 01:19 goldensail wrote:
One common argument is if Zerg is OP as a race, why aren't Reynor and Dark as dominant as Serral - but the fact is they already HAVE BEEN winning premier events, and Serral, being the best Zerg, is taking advantage of spellcasters to even greater extent. There's a human limit to what Terran players can do and it's simply impossible to deal with a master Zerg who can fully abuse OP units. Clearly not everyone can play Zerg like Serral, but the point is it's POSSIBLE, and Serral is using thIs advantage to dominate the game to an extent that is IMPOSSIBLE for other races to deal with.
This is my favorite bit out of this absurdity. "Reynor and Dark did poorly this tournament, but they have won tournaments in the past (I believe on different patches?), so clearly their race is OP!" So...Clem and Maru have never won anything? Also funny to blab on about competitive integrity and then wanting to nerf an entire race because of one player. One. If you nerf Serral on a level he would get destroyed in the Ro12, no other Zerg would even reach the close-qualifier for these kind of events. The imba-imba-IMBA race Zerg had literally the least representation at Katowice. I know, as a korean elitist and/or Maru-Fanboy (not looking at any particular TL-Writer or something) "Zerg OP roflrofl" is literally your only saving grace, but maybe, just maybe, accept the fact that Serral "right now" (as in the last six years, but the last two especially) is above the curve. Doesn't mean he can't be beaten, just means the very best need to play their very best. And that is a thing you might find hard to accept: Maru didn't play "like a god" in that series, except for the 2nd Map. On all three other maps, Serral was always one step ahead. Can we stop the copium at some point? In Germany, there is a saying that translates to "Skill is, when Luck becomes a regular thing". So really, at some point you might just have to face the music here... What is the actual German for that? It’s such a melodious language. Are you German yourself? I’d always assumed French, I have no idea as to why mind.
Yes I am and no, definetly not French. After four years of French I recollect maybe 20 words and two phrases at best 
In German the saying would be "Können ist, wenn Glück zur Gewohnheit wird"
As for your question "how to nerf one guy": It really is a tricky question, because the honest answer should be "you don't". This is a skill-based game. If someone does something no one else can even attempt to do, why would you nerf that? It is also highly subjective.
For example, Marus Ghost-control is ridiculous, has been for years. Imagine Serral wasn't a thing and Maru would be able to actually win anything outside of Asia (btw: I'm really curious to see if Riyad is still asian-enough for Marus curse to not kick in...), I bet you anything people would cry out for a Ghost-nerf.
In Serrals case it is even harder, because he doesn't really rely on one singular thing. His spellcaster-control is definetly the best in the game by a mile, but that isn't everything. But you can't just go from there and nerf all Zerg spellcasters to the ground, because then every other Zerg will just be insta-dead. It's not like burrowed infestors are a "choice" you make and pick it because it is imba. You pick it because it is literally the only working counter. Same for the Viper. Or the Queen. I remember when people suggested to just remove the Queen from the game (or have it only as an infuser/creepspreader). Like yeah, sure...Zerg would be insta-dead against any kind of Banshee-Push or even just Oracles, but hey, atleast we nerfed Serral?
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People have long acknowledged that Zerg has an advantage by being able to a-move.
Troll post confirmed
yeah, "amove ling bane" derp
and Amove their spellcasters-oh wait, they don't even have auto attacks like ghosts or HTs.
Yeah there's a reason why zerg is 24% of GM https://nonapa.com/races?region=-1&mode=1&league=6&chart=1 and it's not because "zerg OP".
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I'm not sure it's a balance issue at the moment, especially in the tvz matchup. What does help Zerg is the game design/race design. Reactive play has to be good enough for a Zerg to scout react and be ok. So that means IMO these responses need to be slightly overtuned when put in the hands of a Serral or other zergs at their absolute peak. Because if they're not slightly overtuned a lesser Zerg is getting rolled for not playing "perfectly".
We've seen Toss builds in the past get nerfed because they're too ambiguous between an all in or macro play, essentially putting Zerg into a guessing game. Which obviously a coin flip is not fun on either side.
All that to say Zerg is the best race in the game based on the meta/game state at this point. The longer any patch is out the more it favors Zerg. I don't think it's something that can be fixed by tweaking some numbers, it's just the result of the way the race was designed.
Serral just makes it look even worse than it is because he is so steady and methodical. So when people already have these types of opinions it just brings out the balance whine lol
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On February 13 2024 02:54 Nasigil wrote:A player that still refused to wall his third or put a planetary on forth after getting ling run by for 10 times doesn't deserve to win. Serral outplayed Maru plain and simple. Show nested quote +if they COMBINED, while playing at/near their top form, cannot win a single map against Serral Clem and Maru both have weaknesses. Clem has best mechanical skills (macro/micro/multitasking) but his strategies and decision making are not on the level of Maru. Maru is the most experienced and smartest Terran but his micro and multitasking has fallen off from his best years. He's also known to have mental weakness on international stage. On the other hand, try to name one weakness of Serral. Macro, micro, multitasking, strategies(build orders), tactics (army maneuver), mentality, as of now, he's top of the chart on everything. And he performs super consistently. To beat perfection, you have to be perfection yourself. Clem always try to overwhelm his opponent by relentless attacking, which works most of the time because he's just that good, but against someone just that's just as mechanically skillful but much smarter like Serral, he hit a wall. But to Clem's credit, he's still the Terran that has the best record against Serral in recent years. He did beat Serral just a while ago in Atlanta. Maru could match Serral in his deep bag of strategies and late game turtles, but when both player play standard long macro games, you can see his reaction and micro is just not on par any more. Clem could sometime overwhelm Serral with his relentless attacks, Maru used to be able to do the same before 2022, but now he just don't have that mechanical skill anymore. He has to rely on his turtling to have a chance in late game, but in G2 after getting caught by infestor too many times in mid-game and forgot to mine gas for a crucial minute late game, he lost by a razer thin edge. The last two game Maru tried his greedy openings, but Serral recognized it and busted it open with timing attack in G3. You can see Maru's mentality was at the brink of collapse on that last game, and it showed as he was too eager to finish Serral off with his Mech push and refuse to wall his expansions, eventually died to endless run by. At the end of the day, the better player won.
This, right here.
Maru isn't the same player he used to be during his peak. Serral arguably has reached a second peak. Maru going for risky strategies in games 1 and 3 might have to do with him respecting Serral too much. It all comes down to mind games. If Maru thinks he can't beat Serral straight up, he's trying to cut corners - either by going for a semi-allin like in game 4 or by playing greedily. Lesser zerg players usually can't punish him for doing stuff like that, but Serral immediately pounced on him.
Timing windows are incredibly small in SC2. There was one game between Maru and ByuN which was decided by Maru exploiting the only weakness in ByuN's defense at the perfect moment. If he hadn't done that, ByuN would have been miles ahead.
But there's another issue:
Korean SC2 is pretty much dead. Korea used to have the largest talent pool, but those days are long gone. All that's left are a few veterans like Maru, herO, Dark etc. The last "new" player to be semi-good was... Zoun? Meanwhile, the EU scene is a lot healthier, even though it has shrunk by quite a bit. Serral, Reynor and Clem emerged in the late 2010s. The game is basically figured out, it takes a lot of effort to reach the top. You only can do that if playing the game full time is actually sustainable. In Korea, GSL is on its last legs, the only way to earn some money is by playing a shitload of online tournaments.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MKfbplB.png)
