EPT
.The death of SC2 as a competitive e-sport - Page 8
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Balance threads suck.. But, just like you need to have a beer and bitch about work on a Friday afternoon, sometimes you gotta have a place to post your unreasonable balance takes on TL. | ||
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Deathstar1
8 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17002 Posts
On February 17 2024 04:03 Deathstar1 wrote: I think yall should just play sc1. We don't need a balance patch every 3 months to fix our game .I think we need to create a fourth faction by taking the Terran faction and splitting into two separate warring sub factions. In one faction we have uncivilized terrans who bastardize the English language with words like whatever word(s) that underlined and bolded in the above comment is. And in the other sub-faction are the Terrans who speak the Queen's English. | ||
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Snakestyle1
43 Posts
The Zerg population dropout has been huge, happened at the exact time of patches, which shows that patches DID weaken Zerg, but Serral is just too perfect of a player compared to the competition. I already stopped playing after the last patch after 13 years of non stop gaming because i realized my race would keep being weaker and weaker every patch, to the point where i barely see it anymore on ladder. Virtually everything Zerg has been nerfed in some ways, other than maybe zerglings, in the last few years. Core things such as transfuse, creepspread, queen range, banelings damage and hp, ravager build time, all got nerfed. Late game has been nerfed countless times as well. Broodlord nerfs, lurker nerfs, viper/infestor nerfs. Swarmhosts nerfed as well. Theres almost no builds left with zerg. You mass queen ling bane, with maybe hydra lurker, and thats pretty much the extent of the viable unit compositions. Aggression was also nerfed with dropperlord nerfs, ravager nerf, queen transfuse nerf, nydus nerfs. The creep spread nerfs actually hurt lower level zergs more than higher level zergs, because they have less screen per minute, less apm, so if the creep is 3 seconds away from ready to spread when they look, you can bet your ass they arent looking again for close to a minute later. If you dont fight on creep, you die to attrition very quickly. Once again, if you nerf zergs and buff protoss until they can win around the same amount of tournaments as Serral, you will literally kill the race for everyone else. You will see virtually no Zergs on masters/GM ladder, and you will go back to PVP fest on EU, with more PvT on NA. Would have been nice if during its lifespan, StarCraft 2 paid more attention to what it is supposed to be: a game. The pros should adjust to the game. Adjusting the game to the top 5 players gives us this result. This game. This game where almost noone is happy. The ladder players dont like the balance, the viewers dont like the balance, and 2/3 of pros dont like the balance. The real solution should have been: If you wanna balance the pro players, dont balance the unit stats where it ruins the game. Balance the tournament results via maps. I really would have prefered if every tournament would have unique maps, even if the pros couldnt practice on ladder for months on them, it would probabably make for better games with more cool moments and special builds prepared. Players maybe would know of the maps 1 month in advance or something. This way, if you wanna challenge Serral, you could choose worse Zerg maps, and the entire ladder zerg population wouldnt get shafted because Serral exists. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On February 17 2024 04:52 Snakestyle1 wrote: Zerg has already had his core stuff get nerfed every patch for last few years, some of you guys dont appreciate just how hard zerg has been nerfed in the last 3 years. Problem is Serral keeps getting better anyways, and hes too far ahead of others. I really think if Serral didnt exist, Zerg would not look stronger than the other races. Dark and Reynor can pick up wins, but so can Clem and Maru. The Zerg population dropout has been huge, happened at the exact time of patches, which shows that patches DID weaken Zerg, but Serral is just too perfect of a player compared to the competition. I already stopped playing after the last patch after 13 years of non stop gaming because i realized my race would keep being weaker and weaker every patch, to the point where i barely see it anymore on ladder. Virtually everything Zerg has been nerfed in some ways, other than maybe zerglings, in the last few years. Core things such as transfuse, creepspread, queen range, banelings damage and hp, ravager build time, all got nerfed. Late game has been nerfed countless times as well. Broodlord nerfs, lurker nerfs, viper/infestor nerfs. Swarmhosts nerfed as well. Theres almost no builds left with zerg. You mass queen ling bane, with maybe hydra lurker, and thats pretty much the extent of the viable unit compositions. Aggression was also nerfed with dropperlord nerfs, ravager nerf, queen transfuse nerf, nydus nerfs. The creep spread nerfs actually hurt lower level zergs more than higher level zergs, because they have less screen per minute, less apm, so if the creep is 3 seconds away from ready to spread when they look, you can bet your ass they arent looking again for close to a minute later. If you dont fight on creep, you die to attrition very quickly. Once again, if you nerf zergs and buff protoss until they can win around the same amount of tournaments as Serral, you will literally kill the race for everyone else. You will see virtually no Zergs on masters/GM ladder, and you will go back to PVP fest on EU, with more PvT on NA. Would have been nice if during its lifespan, StarCraft 2 paid more attention to what it is supposed to be: a game. The pros should adjust to the game. Adjusting the game to the top 5 players gives us this result. This game. This game where almost noone is happy. The ladder players dont like the balance, the viewers dont like the balance, and 2/3 of pros dont like the balance. The real solution should have been: If you wanna balance the pro players, dont balance the unit stats where it ruins the game. Balance the tournament results via maps. I really would have prefered if every tournament would have unique maps, even if the pros couldnt practice on ladder for months on them, it would probabably make for better games with more cool moments and special builds prepared. Players maybe would know of the maps 1 month in advance or something. This way, if you wanna challenge Serral, you could choose worse Zerg maps, and the entire ladder zerg population wouldnt get shafted because Serral exists. Good post in general, especially the bolded. I wish the tournament scene had done more of this, versus very little of it if we look at SC2 in totality. Outside of almost nobody ever delivering FPVs via side streams it’s one of my biggest frustrations with SC2 on the tournament end. And hey you can still do balance patches if you can’t make it work via maps, it’s not like that’s of the table. If we branch off SC2’s community into various stakeholders, I think this satisfies more of them that the current approach. Pros still have a game that’s being balanced, just via another route. Viewers get to see pros showing why they’re pros with a more dynamic and varied map pool. Map makers can actually get their maps played, as it basically has always been, if you don’t get a map in a ladder pool, it doesn’t get much play if any. And regular players can still have quite standard, steady maps on ladder versus having to learn complicated technical maps on top of a brutally difficult game. | ||
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 15 2024 09:13 Poopi wrote: How do you qualify for IEM Katowice as a KR player?  Through their own KR qualify, oh wait they the KR lost their spots to Cyan and Firefly. Maybe the KR are not as good as you think they are Imagine if Serral lost a series to meow and Cyan, the haters will have a field day with that. But when Maru loses it’s the coping excuses “Maru is just saving builds, or not taking it serious” That’s definitely one of Maru’s achievement that Serral will never achieve or any other top foreigner | ||
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CerebrateHector
53 Posts
This way, if you wanna challenge Serral, you could choose worse Zerg maps The problem is that pretty much every map is a Zerg match, unless you do extreme stupid stuff like island maps. Very short map ?, Zerg has cheese ... Very long map like Radhuset ? Zerg can expand and throw units. The only ones feasible would be very long maps with bases on the rear instead of forward like the 4v4 maps where Terran and Protoss would just turtle, get 5 base and then Golden Armada/Victory Fleet. What map on the current map pool is like really really bad for Zerg ?, because even Equilibrium which is Terran favoured because of the shape of it, the Rich mineral gives strong mid game for zerg to end the game earlier. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
On February 17 2024 04:52 Snakestyle1 wrote: Zerg has already had his core stuff get nerfed every patch for last few years, some of you guys dont appreciate just how hard zerg has been nerfed in the last 3 years. Problem is Serral keeps getting better anyways, and hes too far ahead of others. I really think if Serral didnt exist, Zerg would not look stronger than the other races. Dark and Reynor can pick up wins, but so can Clem and Maru. The Zerg population dropout has been huge, happened at the exact time of patches, which shows that patches DID weaken Zerg, but Serral is just too perfect of a player compared to the competition. I already stopped playing after the last patch after 13 years of non stop gaming because i realized my race would keep being weaker and weaker every patch, to the point where i barely see it anymore on ladder. Virtually everything Zerg has been nerfed in some ways, other than maybe zerglings, in the last few years. Core things such as transfuse, creepspread, queen range, banelings damage and hp, ravager build time, all got nerfed. Late game has been nerfed countless times as well. Broodlord nerfs, lurker nerfs, viper/infestor nerfs. Swarmhosts nerfed as well. Theres almost no builds left with zerg. You mass queen ling bane, with maybe hydra lurker, and thats pretty much the extent of the viable unit compositions. Aggression was also nerfed with dropperlord nerfs, ravager nerf, queen transfuse nerf, nydus nerfs. The creep spread nerfs actually hurt lower level zergs more than higher level zergs, because they have less screen per minute, less apm, so if the creep is 3 seconds away from ready to spread when they look, you can bet your ass they arent looking again for close to a minute later. If you dont fight on creep, you die to attrition very quickly. Once again, if you nerf zergs and buff protoss until they can win around the same amount of tournaments as Serral, you will literally kill the race for everyone else. You will see virtually no Zergs on masters/GM ladder, and you will go back to PVP fest on EU, with more PvT on NA. Would have been nice if during its lifespan, StarCraft 2 paid more attention to what it is supposed to be: a game. The pros should adjust to the game. Adjusting the game to the top 5 players gives us this result. This game. This game where almost noone is happy. The ladder players dont like the balance, the viewers dont like the balance, and 2/3 of pros dont like the balance. The real solution should have been: If you wanna balance the pro players, dont balance the unit stats where it ruins the game. Balance the tournament results via maps. I really would have prefered if every tournament would have unique maps, even if the pros couldnt practice on ladder for months on them, it would probabably make for better games with more cool moments and special builds prepared. Players maybe would know of the maps 1 month in advance or something. This way, if you wanna challenge Serral, you could choose worse Zerg maps, and the entire ladder zerg population wouldnt get shafted because Serral exists. Wow this post is so out of touch. Just listing every nerf Zerg has gotten while completely ignoring the buffs (Broodlord Speed, instant fungal, Lurker range, Hydra buff, Ultra buff) and the nerfs the other races has gotten (like 4 Ghost nerfs which is the unit the entire terran race hangs on, not to mention all the Protoss nerfs). Zerg hasn't been significantly nerfed in any way, the balance council is to afraid to nerf the race that is played by the best foreigners. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
And I’m basically an ex player now, I almost exclusively watch high level games, but as Snakestyle alluded to actually playing the race for us mere mortals must suck these days. They’re pretty compositionally limited and you basically have to go all-in if you want to be aggressive. It’s like gradually over time you’re left with playing straight up reactive macro, or borderline cheesing. Toss may relatively suck at the top level but at least there’s a lot you can make work and play different styles with. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
On February 19 2024 05:41 WombaT wrote: Zerg in fairness have had quite a few nerfs, even to absolute core units like banes in recent years. Whether they’re sufficient is another thing that people will have differing opinions on And I’m basically an ex player now, I almost exclusively watch high level games, but as Snakestyle alluded to actually playing the race for us mere mortals must suck these days. They’re pretty compositionally limited and you basically have to go all-in if you want to be aggressive. It’s like gradually over time you’re left with playing straight up reactive macro, or borderline cheesing. Toss may relatively suck at the top level but at least there’s a lot you can make work and play different styles with. Serral just showed you can open with a Roach "pressure" build that has the potential to kill and still be on 71 drones 30 seconds later. Sure Zerg got nerfs but so did the other races. Looking at the whole picture I don't think Zerg has been made weaker at all comparatively to the other races | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On February 19 2024 06:10 Charoisaur wrote: Serral just showed you can open with a Roach "pressure" build that has the potential to kill and still be on 71 drones 30 seconds later. Sure Zerg got nerfs but so did the other races. Looking at the whole picture I don't think Zerg has been made weaker at all comparatively to the other races I mean Serral can, folks at that level can absolutely transition out. My point is more that Zergs have been nerfed in a way that maybe still aren’t enough at pro play, but those nerfs continue to make Zergs at lower levels less and less fun to play. As something of a tangential point, maybe active Zerg players can correct me if they think I’m wrong! You’ve creep nerfs for example. Given the sheer amount of tumours out and the speed of top lads, they’re still carpeting the map. It hasn’t really made all that big a difference. A Serral or a Reynor has enough spare APM going go basically compensate. Whereas I imagine at lower levels that actually does really impact in creep. The problem with Zerg IMO isn’t really in particular units, it’s the struggle almost to nerf the (reachable) mechanical ceiling of the race. and really how LoTV’s eco changes absolutely just innately favour them. Whereas balance tweaks for the other races may have knock-on impacts for sure, but they’re generally targeting a specific issue. With Zerg, at the very very top level, the whole race is effectively the issue. At (multiple) time where Protoss were just winning with a bunch of blink stalkers, I mean there’s some obvious stuff to fix there to redress that. With Zerg I mean the symptoms are somewhat obvious but how to identify and tweak the root causes? I feel it’s overdue to try more balancing by maps. It’s been forever since there’s been a pool that’s even neutral, never mind bad for Zergs. And given that SC2 is in maintainence mode we’re unlikely to see the kind of wholesale changes require to balance by numbers. | ||
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