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Balance threads suck.. But, just like you need to have a beer and bitch about work on a Friday afternoon, sometimes you gotta have a place to post your unreasonable balance takes on TL. |
There's been months and probably years of discussion of whether Terran should add Ravens to late game TvZ compositions. I have seen multiple commentators that are master/GM level player themselves asking the same thing, although none of them actually plays Terran. But pros just never did it.
Oliveira once joined a Chinese stream and explained his point of view. He said late game Terran army has too many units with ability to cast, Ghosts need to snipe and EMP, Libs need to siege, Bios need to stim, Tanks need to siege, Mines need to burrow, the only way to reliably do everything perfectly ASAP when an engagement starts is selecting everything (sometimes F2) and use TAB to cycle through all the units and abilities. Ghost is always the top priority. When you build Ravens it overtakes Ghosts in priority list and throws a wrench into their well-established muscle memories.
Now if you always have Raven, you could probably adapt to the new muscle memory. But the problem is you don't need too many Ravens in the mix because their spells are not that useful in TvZ, at best you need a couple just for anti-cloak, and they are hard to keep alive, one Viper drag is all it takes. So unable to guarantee you always have Raven in your army means the whole "TAB through unit abilities" priority list would change from time to time depends on whether your Raven is still alive. And messing up those spell castings especially from Ghost in a big late game fight will straight up lose you the game. Pro Terrans found it to be simply not worth all that trouble for just some extra anti-cloak. Radars cost practically nothing in late game and turrets could be built everywhere, they would rather rely on those instead of dealing with the uncertainty that Ravens bring.
So there you have it, it's a perspective from one top player. Whether it's convincing enough is up to you.
The pros sticks with the old way because it does work, most of the time. None of the Zergs other than Serral could use burrowed infestor consistently, and even Serral often have to sacrifice multiple infestors to Radars to get one good fungal, and the fungal often wouldn't do that much if his banelings don't instantly roll in with perfect sync. When Terran gg from burrowed infestors, its often because they are already on the losing side against Serral, that last fungal was just the nail on the coffin instead of something instantly changing the tide of battle.
If Serral don't have burrowed infestors, he will likely still win vast majority of those games, it will just drag a few mins longer, and he would probably finish the tournament something like 20-3 instead of 20-1. The only game in this entire tournament where you can say "he's gonna lose that if not for burrowed infestors" was probably Finals G2, where he had like 6 successful fungals in the middle of the game, which still drags out for another 20 mins.
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I think game 2 of Serral vs Clem the burrowed infestor was pretty decisive too, like clem was pretty well established and it snowballed hard after that, but probably lot of panic reaction aswell. Wouldn't have changed the grand scheme of things for sure.
Interested to see how this evolves in the next months. It can be exciting from a spectator pov, like game 2 Maru vs Serral were there were so many butt-clenching moments. Altho I can see how it can "ruin" some back and forth game if they end in a single fungal. That's sc2 tho, we already have so many underwhelming game ending stuff at least this requires set-up and coordination.
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On February 13 2024 01:43 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2024 01:38 Poopi wrote:On February 13 2024 01:33 Netto. wrote:
Serral > Maru Obviously, finland training is superior to KR training, Maru should work harder on his TvZ Why haven't the Koreans gone to Finland to train? Are they stupid?
don't come up with logic. thats not how it works...
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Balance has nothing to do with the strength of SC2 as a competitive sport. I personally feel like top level sc2 is fine. The problem with StarCraft is it its not a game for normies, it requires a specific type of person. A person who doesn't mind pain and misery.
Terran players need to stop complaining about balance, its not a good look.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On February 15 2024 00:25 Nasigil wrote:
There's been months and probably years of discussion of whether Terran should add Ravens to late game TvZ compositions. I have seen multiple commentators that are master/GM level player themselves asking the same thing, although none of them actually plays Terran. But pros just never did it.
Oliveira once joined a Chinese stream and explained his point of view. He said late game Terran army has too many units with ability to cast, Ghosts need to snipe and EMP, Libs need to siege, Bios need to stim, Tanks need to siege, Mines need to burrow, the only way to reliably do everything perfectly ASAP when an engagement starts is selecting everything (sometimes F2) and use TAB to cycle through all the units and abilities. Ghost is always the top priority. When you build Ravens it overtakes Ghosts in priority list and throws a wrench into their well-established muscle memories.
Now if you always have Raven, you could probably adapt to the new muscle memory. But the problem is you don't need too many Ravens in the mix because their spells are not that useful in TvZ, at best you need a couple just for anti-cloak, and they are hard to keep alive, one Viper drag is all it takes. So unable to guarantee you always have Raven in your army means the whole "TAB through unit abilities" priority list would change from time to time depends on whether your Raven is still alive. And messing up those spell castings especially from Ghost in a big late game fight will straight up lose you the game. Pro Terrans found it to be simply not worth all that trouble for just some extra anti-cloak. Radars cost practically nothing in late game and turrets could be built everywhere, they would rather rely on those instead of dealing with the uncertainty that Ravens bring.
So there you have it, it's a perspective from one top player. Whether it's convincing enough is up to you.
The pros sticks with the old way because it does work, most of the time. None of the Zergs other than Serral could use burrowed infestor consistently, and even Serral often have to sacrifice multiple infestors to Radars to get one good fungal, and the fungal often wouldn't do that much if his banelings don't instantly roll in with perfect sync. When Terran gg from burrowed infestors, its often because they are already on the losing side against Serral, that last fungal was just the nail on the coffin instead of something instantly changing the tide of battle.
If Serral don't have burrowed infestors, he will likely still win all those games, it will just drag a few mins longer, and he would probably finish the tournament something like 20-3 instead of 20-1. The only game in this entire tournament where you can say "he's gonna lose that if not for burrowed infestors" was probably Finals G2, where he had like 6 successful fungals in the middle of the game, which still drags out for another 20 mins.
This is a subtle, but a very good point
For basically all of SC2’s existence I felt that not being able to customise unit priority is genuinely a problem with complex armies and makes some blends harder to control than others, even if on paper they sometimes look equivalently difficult.
And yes of course multiple unit hotkeys is a thing, but there are plenty of times where you’re gonna want to box and move what you have on screen, or a particular area rather than whole pre-set army groups.
I can’t be the only Protoss who’s accidentally boxed a Templar and missed forcefields because it took priority over my sentries and I wasn’t quick enough to shift around. And yes I’m aware I suck at the game, it’s only an example.
The order you want to cast spells in a typical engagement, or how often is to me more important than how high tier a caster is.
As per my example, more pertinent in WoL/HoTS given how FF was more integral to Protoss, you (generally) want to safeguard your army/segment the opponents, then drop the lightning.
With current priority, assuming 1A that’s tab, cast forcefields, shift tab, cast storm. If you swapped them it’s FF, tab, storm. It more elegantly maps on to what you’re generally gonna want to do, in order.
Same with Terran with ghost/bio. If someone gets the drop on you, especially a Zerg with banes rolling in, you almost always will want to stim first to panic split, but there’s that additional selection cycling to do.
I’m not advocating making 1A play easier, but I do think this should be a customisable thing, it may make certain comps slightly more playable, and is just an overdue QoL change. It just makes things slightly less wonky when you, as sometimes is necessary are boxing over decent chunks of army with a degree of complexity.
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Waiting for the next terran evolution that won't spam all army key but hotkey raven seperately.
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On February 15 2024 04:52 Comedy wrote:
Waiting for the next terran evolution that won't spam all army key but hotkey raven seperately.
Even without f2 a flying caster is pretty easy to accidentally box while you're box stim splitting especially if you're advocating moving this thing up front to help with detection.
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I think in a macro game TvZ is balanced. Maru almost won on Radhuset despite the map being Zerg favored and Serral getting off huge fungals (without them Maru probably wins).
My only pet peeve is with the way game 1 and 3 turned out. Zerg has the ability to get insta-wins just because of the way build orders work out while the other way this dynamic doesn't really exist. Sure there exist some things like proxy 2 rax, Hellbat push or 2 port BCs but those shouldn't really work at the top level barring a major fuck up from the Zerg, which is why we barely see them anymore. It just seems that in longer bo series that puts Zerg at a quite big advantage if the Zerg is willing to abuse this dynamic to its fullest like Rogue did and now Serral. Dark does it too but his macro game has regressed so much by now that Roach allins are basically the only thing Maru has to worry about.
How to fix that - no idea, can't really nerf Roaches or Ravagers
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On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote:On February 13 2024 16:01 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. Irrelevant ranking inflated by the fact that EU has 5-10x more random online events for players to farm tier 2 pros in. Of course the half-dead scene (EU) will have more tournaments and games being played to inflate rankings than a totally dead scene, like Korean SC2. Maxpax #2 in the world when he hasn't played a single game of SC2 on LAN LMAO The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate.
His last game against another top 10 Aligulac player is literally two weeks ago.
A loss 2-3 against Cure, nr. 10 in the list. And then right after, a 1-3 loss against Shin/Ragnarok who is nr.12. All the following games are against lower level players.
Classic and Oliveira, who you mentioned, are solidly in the middle of top 10-20.
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On February 15 2024 05:52 iRkSupperman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote:On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote:On February 13 2024 16:01 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. Irrelevant ranking inflated by the fact that EU has 5-10x more random online events for players to farm tier 2 pros in. Of course the half-dead scene (EU) will have more tournaments and games being played to inflate rankings than a totally dead scene, like Korean SC2. Maxpax #2 in the world when he hasn't played a single game of SC2 on LAN LMAO The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. His last game against another top 10 Aligulac player is literally two weeks ago. A loss 2-3 against Cure, nr. 10 in the list. And then right after, a 1-3 loss against Shin/Ragnarok who is nr.12. All the following games are against lower level players. Classic and Oliveira, who you mentioned, are solidly in the middle of top 10-20.
A compelling case. I wonder if there's a reason why you decided to stop specifically at february 1st, but there's probably nothing, if I scrolled slightly down to january 29th I wouldn't see anything remotely relevant probably.
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On February 15 2024 05:32 Charoisaur wrote:
I think in a macro game TvZ is balanced. Maru almost won on Radhuset despite the map being Zerg favored and Serral getting off huge fungals (without them Maru probably wins).
My only pet peeve is with the way game 1 and 3 turned out. Zerg has the ability to get insta-wins just because of the way build orders work out while the other way this dynamic doesn't really exist. Sure there exist some things like proxy 2 rax, Hellbat push or 2 port BCs but those shouldn't really work at the top level barring a major fuck up from the Zerg, which is why we barely see them anymore. It just seems that in longer bo series that puts Zerg at a quite big advantage if the Zerg is willing to abuse this dynamic to its fullest like Rogue did and now Serral. Dark does it too but his macro game has regressed so much by now that Roach allins are basically the only thing Maru has to worry about.
How to fix that - no idea, can't really nerf Roaches or Ravagers
Game 1 and 3 looks more like isolated instances to me. Greedy openings either gets beaten by timing attacks or it will overwhelm a normal macro build, a tale as old as time.
Maru opened with insanely greedy builds against Reynor in G1, Reynor didn't scout it and let Maru run away with it, then easily got overwhelmed by mech push. Heromarine also got a greedy opening going against Solar in G2, got near 200 supply at only 8 min and crushed Solar in one easy push. Are those "build order win"?
Reynor tried to all in Maru in G2 but failed, while the exact same scenario played out differently in finals G3. The only difference I think was the engineering bay placement. They were in Maru's main base against Reynor, safely building upgrade advantages as he held Reynor's all in attempt.
But in G3 against Serral, Maru put them in his natural, so when he successfully defended Serral's first push, the engineering bays were left vulnerable in the natural. There was no way Serral could attack into Maru's high ground - the tank was already out. But he went for the two bays, and Maru was too eager to protect them he moved his whole army out into to the open field to stop it, which proceeds to get surrounded by lings. That's how Maru lose that game.
The same greediness lost Maru G4 when he gained the similar advantage as his G1 against Reynor, but this time he didn't bother to wall his third and refuse to use planetary on forth which eventually make him die to endless ling run by.
It's really the execution that determines the game of this finals.
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On February 15 2024 06:13 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 05:52 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote:On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote:On February 13 2024 16:01 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. Irrelevant ranking inflated by the fact that EU has 5-10x more random online events for players to farm tier 2 pros in. Of course the half-dead scene (EU) will have more tournaments and games being played to inflate rankings than a totally dead scene, like Korean SC2. Maxpax #2 in the world when he hasn't played a single game of SC2 on LAN LMAO The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. His last game against another top 10 Aligulac player is literally two weeks ago. A loss 2-3 against Cure, nr. 10 in the list. And then right after, a 1-3 loss against Shin/Ragnarok who is nr.12. All the following games are against lower level players. Classic and Oliveira, who you mentioned, are solidly in the middle of top 10-20. A compelling case. I wonder if there's a reason why you decided to stop specifically at february 1st, but there's probably nothing, if I scrolled slightly down to january 29th I wouldn't see anything remotely relevant probably.
A weekly ESL cup win, the whole thing everybody in this thread who's commented on Maxpax besides you has cited as the single main source for Maxpax's inflated ranking? Yeah you're right he won on Jan 29th. GJ. What happened Jan 24th?
We can go on like this for a while lol
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On February 15 2024 05:19 Moonerz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 04:52 Comedy wrote:
Waiting for the next terran evolution that won't spam all army key but hotkey raven seperately. Even without f2 a flying caster is pretty easy to accidentally box while you're box stim splitting especially if you're advocating moving this thing up front to help with detection.
Indeed, see my wall of text above on that very subject.
Rigid army hotkeys are great proactively, when you’re comfortably moving around or pushing. Defensively, or reactively less so, sometimes you just gotta box, there’s not another good option. You may not want to pull all your bio and ghosts back for example, just the ones in a particular dangerous area. But if you accidentally box a ghost you can run into the issue where you miss stim where you assume you’d just chunked off your bio. Or if you accidentally panic box a raven and think you’ve caught ghosts, a potentially crucial EMP.
Hell herO doesn’t hotkey his army in a standard manner with a bunch of hotkeys, and has this system where his 2 hotkey is the last thing he looked at and he relies on boxing a lot. Seems a nightmare to me but he makes it work!
Quite interesting insight that Pig pointed out in casting and we got to see a little bit via the FPV cuts that Katowice used, props to the production there.
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On February 15 2024 06:19 iRkSupperman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 06:13 Nebuchad wrote:On February 15 2024 05:52 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote:On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote:On February 13 2024 16:01 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. Irrelevant ranking inflated by the fact that EU has 5-10x more random online events for players to farm tier 2 pros in. Of course the half-dead scene (EU) will have more tournaments and games being played to inflate rankings than a totally dead scene, like Korean SC2. Maxpax #2 in the world when he hasn't played a single game of SC2 on LAN LMAO The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. His last game against another top 10 Aligulac player is literally two weeks ago. A loss 2-3 against Cure, nr. 10 in the list. And then right after, a 1-3 loss against Shin/Ragnarok who is nr.12. All the following games are against lower level players. Classic and Oliveira, who you mentioned, are solidly in the middle of top 10-20. A compelling case. I wonder if there's a reason why you decided to stop specifically at february 1st, but there's probably nothing, if I scrolled slightly down to january 29th I wouldn't see anything remotely relevant probably. A weekly ESL cup win, the whole thing everybody in this thread who's commented on Maxpax besides you has cited as the single main source for Maxpax's inflated ranking? Yeah you're right he won on Jan 29th. GJ. What happened Jan 24th? We can go on like this for a while lol
Mate you tried to argue against someone who said that he plays against the top 10 quite often, they even provided statistics that demonstrated that. You answered with some arbitrary period of time that starts right after the day he 2-0ed Solar and Dark and 6-1ed Clem. How do you expect not to be made fun of.
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On February 15 2024 05:52 iRkSupperman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2024 09:15 Mumei wrote:On February 14 2024 07:24 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 23:01 LostUsername100 wrote:On February 13 2024 16:01 iRkSupperman wrote:On February 13 2024 02:09 LostUsername100 wrote:Literally over 300 rating #2 on list, a bigger difference than #2 to #10. Can we stop the copium? It's been 6 years. Irrelevant ranking inflated by the fact that EU has 5-10x more random online events for players to farm tier 2 pros in. Of course the half-dead scene (EU) will have more tournaments and games being played to inflate rankings than a totally dead scene, like Korean SC2. Maxpax #2 in the world when he hasn't played a single game of SC2 on LAN LMAO The difference between #2 MaxPax @ 3473 and #20 Bunny @ 2858 is already 615 rating, you do understand this is a RATING not a POINT system? MaxPax is getting 0 points for "farming" anyone bellow #30 in the world. Here's his last few games: 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 3–1 P KR Classic 2852 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CN Oliveira 3038 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P CA Maplez 1757 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3455 MaxPax DK P 2–0 P US Heaven 1273 unrated LotV online 02/12/2024 3502 MaxPax DK P 2–0 T CL Crown 1155 unrated LotV online He's not getting rating from beating Maplez, heaven, Crown, but from beating Oliveira and Classic, he absolutely is a top player, maybe not top2, but a top player. I'm not saying he's perfectly rated, but aligulac is faaaaaar from irrelevant. So you proved my point? He's sitting around playing top 10-20 players, and then the site places him at top 2 in the world for it because he avoids most of the actual top 10? He's actually played more games against people in the top 10 (1277) than he has played games against people currently 11–20 (689). Is that what it looks like when someone "avoids most of the top 10"? I think it's perfectly reasonable to be skeptical that he would be as successful offline as offline given that other people have struggled with the transition in the past and he seems obviously particularly uncomfortable with the prospect so maybe he'd struggle more than normal. But his rating isn't going up because he dodges good players; his rating is far too high to go up without playing against and beating high level competition at a high win-rate. His last game against another top 10 Aligulac player is literally two weeks ago. A loss 2-3 against Cure, nr. 10 in the list. And then right after, a 1-3 loss against Shin/Ragnarok who is nr.12. All the following games are against lower level players. Classic and Oliveira, who you mentioned, are solidly in the middle of top 10-20.
Isn't that just because top 10 players weren't participating in those events in the last couple of weeks? And besides that, in this period you're talking about his rating went down 8 points because he went 24-5 instead of 25-4.
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We can easily expand the time period and my argument still stands.
Scroll down Maxpax's matches played and compare the average player level vs the matches played by Serral or Maru (comparing with them as the argument presented is that Maxpax deserves a #2 world ranking). Way more games (and wins), against lower level players in Maxpax's match list than for the other two.
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On February 15 2024 06:28 iRkSupperman wrote:
We can easily expand the time period and my argument still stands.
Scroll down Maxpax's matches played and compare the average player level vs the matches played by Serral or Maru (comparing with them as the argument presented is that Maxpax deserves a #2 world ranking). Way more games (and wins), against lower level players in Maxpax's match list than for the other two.
Yeah obviously he's not top two in the world lol but that's not the argument that you were making.
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On February 15 2024 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 06:28 iRkSupperman wrote:
We can easily expand the time period and my argument still stands.
Scroll down Maxpax's matches played and compare the average player level vs the matches played by Serral or Maru (comparing with them as the argument presented is that Maxpax deserves a #2 world ranking). Way more games (and wins), against lower level players in Maxpax's match list than for the other two. Yeah obviously he's not top two in the world lol but that's not the argument that you were making.
My argument the whole time has been that his ranking is inflated from massgaming worse players. Maybe he in reality is the lower end of top 10, maybe he's in the higher end of top 10-20, difficult to say when his match list and average opponent is simply not comparable to the other players with similar Aligulac ranks (Serral, Maru, Clem, Dark).
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On February 15 2024 06:32 iRkSupperman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 06:30 Nebuchad wrote:On February 15 2024 06:28 iRkSupperman wrote:
We can easily expand the time period and my argument still stands.
Scroll down Maxpax's matches played and compare the average player level vs the matches played by Serral or Maru (comparing with them as the argument presented is that Maxpax deserves a #2 world ranking). Way more games (and wins), against lower level players in Maxpax's match list than for the other two. Yeah obviously he's not top two in the world lol but that's not the argument that you were making. My argument the whole time has been that his ranking is inflated from massgaming worse players.
I understand, and the other guy showed you that this argument was wrong, as he plays more often against the top 10 than against the top 20. You're the only one who has trouble following this.
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France12906 Posts
On February 14 2024 23:58 Lexender wrote:
I'm big Maru fanboy and terran apologist but even I can see that this is not it. Maru has always had the tendency to just flop over in international tournaments, there's a reason he has a bunch of GSL under his belt but very few international championships.
I don't know what is the reason but it just always happens.
I mean, Maru « choked » to some extent last year (but not as much as people think, Oliveira was playing godlike very often, just not as consistently as better Terran, and he was a bit too « raw »). But this year he played very well: a surprising loss to Cyan, he did not play that badly but it’s some sort of MeomaikA moment. Afterwards he simply destroyed the other top dogs in his group except herO, who was very close to beating Maru (they are usually playing close series so not surprising).
In the playoffs, he played well. Even in the finals both Maru and Serral played insanely well: they played at such high level and to a similar ability that even the slightest difference in tiny mistakes / map imbalances or whatever turned the tide in one way or another on rhaduset. The other maps were mostly Serral being better prepared in terms of build (if Zerg has an advantage on stable patchs compared to T/P is another debate)
This Katowice result was the most rational outcome: Serral and Maru above everyone else, Serral winning
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/MKfbplB.png)
