No, the series didn't lead to the community reaching a harmonious consensus, but it was a fantastic way to look back on competitive StarCraft II history and celebrate its most accomplished players.
Eight years after stuchiu named Mvp the GOAT, Mizenhauer has decided to take a shot at creating an updated list. His approach and viewpoints are entirely different, but it's no less appreciative of StarCraft II history. Who will make the top ten cutoff this time around?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
All I see are Luosplits when ByuN plays. You can't convince me it's actually ByuN playing.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
He was made to play protoss, I mean mech, definitely mech.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Soulkey
Flash never got close to winning Code S in sc2. Guy had lead hands.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
This a Goat list for sc2 so "Rain being good at BW" has zero influence. It's just a complimentary thing to say and these are flattering articles.
Still, it's a bold pick to put the #44 in sc2 earnings in your top 10. Of course prize money does not always reflect a tournament's worth (Neeb #12 in earnings?! Quite a surprise too!) but this is really a huge gap.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
My concern is that argument that Rain was best in 2012-2015 based primarily on his titles in 2012 and 2015 specifically is kind of weird when you consider that Zest accomplished more in 2014-2016 (like I was not fact checking everything but on titles and in my memory at least). Those two periods mostly overlap and Zest's peak is more dense in success (if you know what I mean).
I mean I understand what is the thought process behind statement of "best in 2012-2015" is a little bit misleading.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
My concern is that argument that Rain was best in 2012-2015 based primarily on his titles in 2012 and 2015 specifically is kind of weird when you consider that Zest accomplished more in 2014-2016 (like I was not fact checking everything but on titles and in my memory at least). Those two periods mostly overlap and Zest's peak is more dense in success (if you know what I mean).
I mean I understand what is the thought process behind statement of "best in 2012-2015" is a little bit misleading.
Any list such as this one will have to compare players who competed in vastly different eras. In order to mitigate the subjectivity that comes with making statistical 'conversions' between time periods, my starting point was to group players by time-period and compare them against their peers.
Here are the four main divisions: 2010 to 2012: Pre-KeSPA/WoL 2013-2015: "Peak" KeSPA/HotS 2016-2017: Early LotV 2018 and later: Post-KeSPA Of course, cross-era comparisons were unavoidable when compiling the final ranking, but this was a better method than trying to directly compare the resumes of, say, Nestea and Reynor.
This is from the Intro post. It makes sense to me to not have early lotv to not be in the same category as HotS.
Happy that you included Rain, he is my favorite Protoss to date. He played a completely different style from his peers and never really deviated. The consistency and the adaptability never cease to amaze.
Always wondered what would happen if he stayed in SC2 longer. IMO he would likely make it to any top-10 GOAT list.
Not sure where else to put this, but I thought it was an interesting fact: the last time that Protoss was the "leading" race on Aligulac was in 2015 with Rain at the forefront. Coincidence? Probably, but what are narratives but convenient coincidences anyway
EPT
