No, the series didn't lead to the community reaching a harmonious consensus, but it was a fantastic way to look back on competitive StarCraft II history and celebrate its most accomplished players.
Eight years after stuchiu named Mvp the GOAT, Mizenhauer has decided to take a shot at creating an updated list. His approach and viewpoints are entirely different, but it's no less appreciative of StarCraft II history. Who will make the top ten cutoff this time around?
On January 12 2024 06:08 ShowTheLights wrote: Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
MMA is almost certainly on this list, I would be surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere pretty high like top 5.
See I think it will be very hard for him to slip through the last 9 spots.
The top 6 is probably locked in: (in alphabetical order) Innovation, Maru, Mvp, Rogue, Serral, Zest. Top 7 depending on their position on including Life. I would be shocked if it's not those topping the ranking. Considering who's the writer I have an incling for one of the would-be last two players, but I could be wrong.
It would leave us with just one spot, which is also maybe the most exciting one. Could be MMA, TaeJa, Dark, sOs, Stats, Reynor, MC...
This was almost exactly my thinking as well on it! I'm very excited to see who clinches that final spot. I suspect sOs or MMA, but my heart wants MMA or MC.
Taeja is one of the greats in my mind, but when I look at how this is scored, honestly there's zero chance Taeja makes the list.
Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
All I see are Luosplits when ByuN plays. You can't convince me it's actually ByuN playing.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
He was made to play protoss, I mean mech, definitely mech.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Soulkey
Flash never got close to winning Code S in sc2. Guy had lead hands.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
This a Goat list for sc2 so "Rain being good at BW" has zero influence. It's just a complimentary thing to say and these are flattering articles.
EPT
