No, the series didn't lead to the community reaching a harmonious consensus, but it was a fantastic way to look back on competitive StarCraft II history and celebrate its most accomplished players.
Eight years after stuchiu named Mvp the GOAT, Mizenhauer has decided to take a shot at creating an updated list. His approach and viewpoints are entirely different, but it's no less appreciative of StarCraft II history. Who will make the top ten cutoff this time around?
• The best domestic league player during his career (2012-2015) • Pioneer of macro-style Protoss play • Vanguard of the KeSPA revolution
Notable tournament finishes
2012 WCS Asia: 1st place
2012 OnGameNet Starleague: 1st place
2013 OnGameNet Starleague: 2nd place
2013 GSL Hot6ix Cup: 1st place
2015 IEM San Jose: 2nd place
2015 Code S Season 2: 1st place
2015 HomeStory Cup 11: 1st place
Rain's StarCraft II career is one of the shortest among the players appearing on this list, but he still distinguished himself as one of the greatest SC2 players ever during a 43 month span from 2012 to 2015. In that time, he achieved a rare combination of both unwavering consistency and dominant peaks that earned him a place in the top ten.
Starting off in an era where Protoss was firmly associated with trickery and all-ins, Rain rose as the first of the great macro Protoss players. His impenetrable defensive style made him dominant during his initial 2012 to 2013 peak, with his victory in the first ever SC2 OnGameNet Starleague being the high point. From there, Rain weathered a brief slump to evolve into an all-arounder, and secured his second Korean major title in Code S Season 2 of 2015.
Winning two 'Korean Individual Leagues' (Code S, OSL, SSL) was very difficult during the height of the KeSPA era, and only INnoVation, Classic, and Maru matched that count during Rain's active career. However, none of them could match him in terms of consistency, and Rain's overall Korean tournament track record paints him as the best domestic league player of this highly competitive era.
Rain also changed expectations for career longevity in StarCraft II by winning his OSL and Code S titles three years apart. This kind of long term consistency may have become normal now, but it was extremely uncommon in the turbulent, early years of SC2.
In a sense, Rain was the first modern great. He represented the KeSPA takeover of the Korean scene, he played a sophisticated macro style, and he showed that great players could stay at a championship level for several years on end.
Career Overview: Burning Brief but Bright
Rain began his StarCraft II career as one of the bulls at the fore of the KeSPA "elephant" invasion. Just five months after KeSPA began its official transition to StarCraft II in May of 2012, Rain became the first association player to win a premier-tier SC2 tournament at the WCS Asia Finals. Just two weeks later, he followed that up by winning the first SC2 version of the legendary OnGameNet Starleague. Compared to most of Rain's KeSPA peers, that was a remarkable speed of adjustment to a new game. Even the two other fast-adapters in Soulkey and INnoVation took approximately nine months to earn their first major titles in Code S and WCS. It would take sOs over a year in SC2 before he won the 2013 WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon.
They're called the good old days for a reason.
With the OSL title in his possession, Rain immediately validated his performance by reaching the semifinals in Season 4 of Code S 2012. In doing so he became the highest placing KeSPA player in two of the three Korean Individual Leagues in which they were first eligible to participate. He followed that up by placing third place in the 2012 Battle.net World Championship in Shanghai (the precursor to the WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon), cementing his position as one of the best SC2 players in the world within a year of his debut.
Rain continued to play top-tier StarCraft in 2013, reaching the OnGameNet Starleague finals once more. And, while Rain had to settle for second place after being defeated by Maru, it did not dim his star. During his 2012-2013 peak, Rain was the overall best Protoss player, and arguably the best player in the world for certain stretches.
After rounding out 2013 by winning the Hot6ix Cup, Rain slumped in 2014. His best finish in Korean Individual Leagues during 2014 was a Round of 8 exit from the third season of Code S, and his best overall result was a runner-up finish at a soft IEM San Jose event (losing to herO). His commitment to the game seemed to be wavering, and a later interview revealed he had even considered retirement.
"One day, perhaps you will also be worthy of the TL.net GOAT list."
At the time, it would not have been especially disappointing if Rain had slowly faded away. The StarCraft scene of 2014 was very different from that of 2023, especially in terms of career arcs and player longevity. In Brood War, a typical Korean career might see a player debut at around age 18, peak at 19-20, and then trail off into a slow decline before retiring in their early 20's. While StarCraft II didn't favor youth quite as much as Brood War, it did seem to inherit the concept of a limited prime. As Rain headed into 2015, the longest period of time between Korean Individual League wins for a player was less than a year (eight months between Mvp's Code S titles)—no one had come close to pulling off Nada's feat of winning OSL titles three years apart.
However, instead of fading away, Rain had a remarkable career renaissance in 2015. In Code S Season 2 of 2015, Rain shattered the notion that he was doomed to an inevitable, if respectable, decline. He started by 4-0’ing his Round of 32 group (wins vs GuMiho and Sorry), and then beat top-five Terrans INnoVation and Bbyong in the RO16. Rain's RO8 opponent Maru was viewed by many in the community as the best player in the world after an impressive stretch where he won the inaugural SSL and finished second at IEM Taipei, but Rain upset him in a convincing 3-1 series. With Maru out of the way, Rain dispatched Curious in the semifinals, before defeating ByuL (the best Zerg during the second half of 2015) 4-1 in a one-sided finals.
Throughout the event, Rain displayed all the skills that had made him so imperious in 2012-13, while adding an edge of aggressiveness he had lacked earlier in his career. He had always been more of a strong all-arounder than a specialist in any single area, but over the course of Season 2 of Code S, he added the final touches and evolved into a complete Protoss.
Rain’s Code S victory was made all the more impressive by the fact that he did so while representing European team mYinsanity—a feat that had yet to be accomplished in StarCraft II up to that point. Most of the non-KeSPA players skilled enough to contend for a Code S title were shrewdly competing in the easier WCS instead (notably Polt, Bomber, and TaeJa). The idea that someone could win a premier-tier Korean league while not representing a KeSPA team was almost unimaginable. And, yet, Rain did just that, proving once more that his career existed beyond common bounds. (It must be mentioned that in 2014, INnoVation had won Code S during a season in which he mostly played for Acer until signing with SK Telecom the day before the semifinals.)
Again, it is essential to recall the environment in Korea at the time. By 2015, the KeSPA elephants had cemented themselves as the powerhouses of the scene and were dominating the most prestigious competitions. The heavily disciplined environments and management from coaches who resembled modern day taskmasters were key to the success experienced by big names like INnoVation, Zest, and Maru. However, KeSPA’s methods had also alienated top stars like Jaedong, who sought out the relaxed conditions on foreign teams. Thus, when Rain joined Swiss team mYinsanity in late 2014, fans could not be blamed for assuming he would never again play at the absolute highest level.
Rain’s excellent form continued into the second half of 2015. He made it all the way to the round-of-4 in Season 3 of SSL, but lost to herO in a best-of-7 that went the distance. Had Rain managed to swing the result in his favor, he would have been the heavy favorite to defeat ByuL in the finals for the second time in 2015. Doing so would have made him the first player since Mvp to win two Korean Individual Leagues in a calendar year.
From there, Rain capped off the year by winning Homestory Cup 11 before falling to eventual champion sOs in the round-of-8 at the WCS Global Finals. It cannot have been the result Rain had hoped for, but even in elimination, his class was on full display.
Totally understandable.
When it comes to Proleague, Rain was a core member of a strong SK Telecom T1 squad during his SC2 stint with the team during 2012-2014 (he had been with SKT since 2010 in Brood War). Over his two seasons, he was ranked among the league leaders in terms of both map wins and win-rate. He led the team with 21 wins during the 2014 season, helping his team to the finals (it was not exactly a one-man-carry job, as the SKT superteam also got 20 wins from Soulkey and 19 from PartinG).
Unlike so many progamers whose careers ended after a prolonged downward slide, Rain’s fate was different. When Rain retired at the end of 2015, he did so at the peak of his powers. For all of his evident quality, his desire to play StarCraft II had petered out. After taking a break to recover from a liver donation to his father, Rain called an end to his brief but bright SC2 career on his own terms. The RTS talent, however, never went away. In 2016, Rain returned to the post-KeSPA Brood War scene, and went on to win ASL Season 5 (2018) and KSL Season 3 (2019).
The Tools: Defense and Adaptability
Rain is one of those players who makes it hard to pin down exactly what made him an all-time great. He didn't have a flashy playstyle, and like most dominant macro players, many of his wins felt both uninteresting and inevitable (the era's micro savants like MC, PartinG, and herO played the more exciting Protoss games). In fact, a fair number of Rain’s WoL victories were the archetypical “macro and whoever wins the first fight wins the game” performances that are looked upon poorly to this day.
What was it then that allowed Rain to dominate his opponents so thoroughly and with such regularity? Mechanically speaking, Rain rivaled Soulkey and INnoVation as the best macro players of 2013. He regained that position in 2015, during his second prime. But, what really set Rain apart was his ability to read the game and make adjustments. Up to that time, Rain was the StarCraft II player who made the best use of the Observer. By always staying a step ahead of his opponents, Rain could respond to any move and continue to play for the big picture win. In that regard, despite playing different races, Serral may be Rain's closest modern day comparison in terms of style.
Much of Protoss strategy is enabled by the threat of incisive all-ins, and Rain was also became quite capable in that department. He could display the subtlety and guile that one would expect from sOs, or pull out the creative, non-standard builds that brought Classic so much success. Most impressively, he could transition from one style to another within the same game—taking advantage of the constant flow of information coming from his opponent to assume whatever form was necessary to win the game.
The Numbers: Heralding the Golden Age of Protoss
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) win-loss records From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2015
Rain qualified for Season 5 of Code S in 2015, but he forfeited his round-of-32 group in order to attend the MLG Fall Championships.
Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) finishes From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2015
*Includes one SSL qualification during a season where the tournament started in the RO16.
Selected players represent the best overall Korean Individual League performers during the period.
Rain’s career took place during the early to middle KeSPA era, when the Korean scene was at its deepest and its reign of terror over other regions was uncontested. Code S went 32 players deep, and it was not uncommon to see former champions occasionally miss the cut. Despite the presence of so many incredible players, Rain’s natural talent allowed him to reach rarified air during his prime.
More than any other attribute, Rain's consistently strong performances in Korean Individual Leagues offers the most robust argument for his inclusion in the GOAT list. During Rain's short but brilliant career from mid 2012 to 2015, only four other players in Maru, INnoVation and Classic won two Korean Individual Leagues. Rain also achieved a RO8+ result eight times, a result only matched by INnoVation and Maru during his career. Also, Rain only failed to qualify for a Korean Individual League on three occasions whereas even a player like INnoVation fell short five times.
During his 43-month career, Rain had the most wins in Korean Individual Leagues with 51, and he recorded the highest match win-rate at 71.8% (3% above Maru's 68.8%). In terms of map score, he recorded 124 wins and 78 losses for a 61.3% win-rate, which was second only to INnoVation's 62.4% during the period.
Proleague win-loss records 2012/13 and 2014 seasons (includes playoffs)
Rain only played in two seasons of SC2 Proleague, but he was among the best players in the league while he was active. SKT's depth meant he shouldered less of a burden than some of the extreme workhorses, but Rain was near the top of the league in both total map wins and map win-rate during the 2012/13 and 2014 seasons.
Top Protosses: Korean Individual League (Code S, OSL, SSL) win-loss records From KeSPA entry into StarCraft II (Code S Season 4 2012) to the end of 2015
a: Rain qualified for Season 5 of Code S in 2015, but he forfeited his round-of-32 group in order to attend the MLG Fall Championships. b: Includes two SSL qualifications during a season where the tournament started in the RO16. c: Includes one SSL qualification during a season where the tournament started in the RO16.
Top Protosses: Proleague win-loss records 2012/13 and 2014 seasons (includes playoffs)
It's worth pointing out that Rain compares especially well against his Protoss peers. His career overlapped with a Protoss golden age, where the race won 7 out of 16 seasons of Korean Individual Leagues and 4 out of 5 world championship-tier events (6 of 7 if you include the less competitive 2012 Battle.net World Championship and 2013 IEM World Championship events). Players like PartinG, Zest, sOs, Dear, herO, Trap, and Classic all showed finalist level play at some point during this time, making it an age of extreme depth for Protoss. Among them, Rain was the most consistent, high-level player in domestic competitions, and only triple-world champion sOs can really challenge him for the title of best Protoss during this time.
The Games
Games were selected primarily based on how well they represented a players' style, not entertainment value.
Rain vs Maru: 2013 OnGameNet Starleague Finals - Game 1 (August 10, 2013)
Game one of the 2013 OSL finals was as comprehensive a beatdown as one will ever see in a high-level, professional game of StarCraft II. Rain played out his macro gameplan with barely any disruption, put together his ultimate army, and ended the game in a single fight. No, it's not an entertaining game, but it's a very typical Rain game.
Rain vs Bbyong: 2014 Proleague Playoffs - SKT vs CJ Entus (July 20, 2014)
On day one of the SKT vs CJ Entus playoff series (each playoff series was a multi-day affair during this period of Proleague), Bbyong shocked the SC2 world by defeating Classic with mech—a composition rarely seen against Protoss. After losing to PartinG with bio on day two, Bbyong decided to roll with mech once more when it was time to face Rain on day three. While the CJ's Terran ace had been able to steal a game against Classic with his unorthodox strategy, it was sheer folly to try it against Rain—especially after the master of scouting and adaptation had already seen it once.
Rain vs Maru: 2015 Season 2 Code S Quarterfinals - Game 1 (June 12, 2015)
In the opening game of their Round of 8 showdown, Maru and Rain played a TvP so entertaining that it's already been written about on TL.net. This was the actually good version of the Rain vs Maru match above, featuring half an hour of constant fighting and back-and-forth momentum swings. Rain's defense ultimately prevailed over Maru's offense, and Rain went on to win the series 3-1.
Rain vs Rogue: 2015 StarCraft 2 Starleague Season 3 Quarterfinals - (August 27, 2015)
It will probably induce some PTSD in old-school Zergs to watch a Protoss scam their way to a victory with a deathball + forcefields, but that's just how you played winning StarCraft II during this time. And, if nothing else, Rain was definitely a winner.
I think the high-end consistency case for Rain is very intriguing, although it doesn't quite mesh with my personal standards for a GOAT list. Personally, I think high consistency helps you accumulate strong tournaments finishes over time, but it doesn't have intrinsic value beyond that (hence why I prolly still have Rogue as my #1).
Rain has definitely become underrated in the "does this player FEEL like the best" department—that late 2012-mid 2013 stretch was pretty elite.
Overall, it's definitely the GSL-centric, Korean-elitist view I expected—the long-needed counterbalance to stuchiu's love of tier-2 internationals on his list
Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
Rain was to me, and still is, the best defensive Protoss I have ever seen. Watching him open triple observer vs Terran was such an "Aha!!" moment for me. I remember when I first was watching him, annoyed at the elephant in the room thread, thinking to myself, "what can this guy really do that other protoss can't". After his career was over, I was thinking to myself "that's the closest to 'perfect' protoss play and I'm not sure i'll ever see that again"
Rain, along with Life, are the biggest what if's in sc2. I wonder how different Protoss history would have looked had he stayed devoted to sc2?
Wow huge comprehensive article. Gonna take my time to enjoy this series !! Excited for the top 10, and nice to have a different perspective.
And a new list for modern SC2. Kinda crazy cus in 2015, game was out for 5 years only, now it's been out for 13. MVP as GOAT made some sense back then (though I remember it seemed most felt someone like Innovation shoulda gotten it, who was #1 until Maru Rogue and Serral started racking up lots of achievements 2018 and onwards).
Watched the games they are completely differently to todays sc2. Mostly deathballs with little multitasking. But yeah Rain was a goat of this Era for the short time he played.
On January 12 2024 05:07 Waxangel wrote: I think the high-end consistency case for Rain is very intriguing, although it doesn't quite mesh with my personal standards for a GOAT list. Personally, I think high consistency helps you accumulate strong tournaments finishes over time, but it doesn't have intrinsic value beyond that (hence why I prolly still have Rogue as my #1).
I would tend to agree with this. Interested to see where we go from here.
Also, yes that last video was indeed PTSD inducing :r
Well first off, incredibly happy to see this series starting, it should be a blast. It's a subject that has animated many of my nights and I'm glad to see it return to the forefront. Second, you couldn't have chosen a better candidate to take on the task of following up Stuchiu than Miz, one of the best writers (dare I say top 10) TL has had.
Third, Rain as the 10th greatest Starcraft 2 player. I have... thoughts.
What jumps to me immediately is that Rain found his way in the same spot TL put him at 8 years ago, which leads me to believe we'll have a widely different list (or it will be an epic troll).
Rain asks the question if being good is enough to be great. Obviously, he was an amazing player, the numbers are some of the best, the playstyle was a milestone in the evolution of SC2, and he represents a certain type of professional SC2, but he doesn't really have that big career or era-defining win or story.
There's the OSL and becoming the first Kespa champion of course, but then just a couple days/week after, as the article eludes to, there's the GSL 4 semi-final, the Mvp-Rain semi-final leading into Mvp-Life. That's the tournament that captures the moment, not Rain-DRG. Same with his second GSL in 2015, sure it's a great run, but if you think about 2015 Starcraft 2, is Rain the name that comes to mind first? As one of the main figures, yes. As the one, no.
Ultimately, to me, if make a list of the 10 greatest SC2 players, I want to select the 10 players without whom I feel I cannot tell the story of professional Starcraft 2. And at the end of the day, I feel I can tell the story of Starcraft 2 without Rain.
At least, some will be left out of the list who I would miss more.
On January 12 2024 06:08 ShowTheLights wrote: Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
MMA is almost certainly on this list, I would be surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere pretty high like top 5.
On January 12 2024 06:08 ShowTheLights wrote: Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
MMA is almost certainly on this list, I would be surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere pretty high like top 5.
See I think it will be very hard for him to slip through the last 9 spots.
The top 6 is probably locked in: (in alphabetical order) Innovation, Maru, Mvp, Rogue, Serral, Zest. Top 7 depending on their position on including Life. I would be shocked if it's not those topping the ranking. Considering who's the writer I have an incling for one of the would-be last two players, but I could be wrong.
It would leave us with just one spot, which is also maybe the most exciting one. Could be MMA, TaeJa, Dark, sOs, Stats, Reynor, MC...
On January 12 2024 06:08 ShowTheLights wrote: Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
MMA is almost certainly on this list, I would be surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere pretty high like top 5.
See I think it will be very hard for him to slip through the last 9 spots.
The top 6 is probably locked in: (in alphabetical order) Innovation, Maru, Mvp, Rogue, Serral, Zest. Top 7 depending on their position on including Life. I would be shocked if it's not those topping the ranking. Considering who's the writer I have an incling for one of the would-be last two players, but I could be wrong.
It would leave us with just one spot, which is also maybe the most exciting one. Could be MMA, TaeJa, Dark, sOs, Stats, Reynor, MC...
If it came down to that, probably Dark or MMA up there. I do have a personal softspot for MC, though.
If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
I always love these articles. It's like getting to relive all the great moments in SC2 history!
I do think that a simple "top 10 of all time" list is a bit reductive though. Like, I'd love to see it classified into a few different eras. And you don't really ever have to compare those eras. I think Pre Kespa is totally different than Post Kespa.
Another thing I think would be pretty neat is if we made those same kinds of "Stat Point" cards that ESL uses, but made them for different Years. sOs may have never been completely dominant, but the guy sure showed up when the bucks were on the line, and his builds are always nutty! Obviously he eventually became irrelevant in LotV, but I'd love if there was a way to highlight that kind of stuff at different points in time.
On January 12 2024 16:07 Drahkn wrote: If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
INnoVation was above Rain in pure talent imho I wonder if the fact that Rain remained a top BW player after his departure from sc2 cemented the fact that he could have won more tournaments in sc2 if he were to stay; and thus keep his 10th spot
On January 12 2024 16:07 Drahkn wrote: If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
INnoVation was above Rain in pure talent imho I wonder if the fact that Rain remained a top BW player after his departure from sc2 cemented the fact that he could have won more tournaments in sc2 if he were to stay; and thus keep his 10th spot
Innovation was known for his hard work ethic he is not considered a super talent , of course I would never say he was not talented at RTS games I'm just saying there are a lot more players who are more talented then he is but then they didn't have his work ethic imho
On January 12 2024 16:07 Drahkn wrote: If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
INnoVation was above Rain in pure talent imho I wonder if the fact that Rain remained a top BW player after his departure from sc2 cemented the fact that he could have won more tournaments in sc2 if he were to stay; and thus keep his 10th spot
Innovation was known for his hard work ethic he is not considered a super talent , of course I would never say he was not talented at RTS games I'm just saying there are a lot more players who are more talented then he is but then they didn't have his work ethic imho
lol perhaps that was the narrative in like 2012-13 (and I'm not saying he didn't work hard back then), but in latter years he's become one of the posterboys of talent > everything
On January 12 2024 16:07 Drahkn wrote: If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
INnoVation was above Rain in pure talent imho I wonder if the fact that Rain remained a top BW player after his departure from sc2 cemented the fact that he could have won more tournaments in sc2 if he were to stay; and thus keep his 10th spot
Innovation was known for his hard work ethic he is not considered a super talent , of course I would never say he was not talented at RTS games I'm just saying there are a lot more players who are more talented then he is but then they didn't have his work ethic imho
The fact that his brother is already in the list of potential GOATs for his role in League of Legends makes me confident INno was not all about hard work (especially how he managed to stay relevant despite barely playing in his last LotV years)
the fact rain just casually swaps to brood war when he feels like it and picked up an ASL and a couple of deep runs, just adds to his tremendous ability, even if it's a different game. He's a phenomenal RTS player.
The previous GOAT article on Mvp is one of my favourite pieces of writing ever. I still reread it from time to time and it still makes me feel. Looking forward to this updated list.
On January 12 2024 16:07 Drahkn wrote: If your rank is based on best players to ever touch the game Rain could easily be rank one next to Maru , Serral plays Zerg so we will sadly never know what his real potential actually is
INnoVation was above Rain in pure talent imho I wonder if the fact that Rain remained a top BW player after his departure from sc2 cemented the fact that he could have won more tournaments in sc2 if he were to stay; and thus keep his 10th spot
Innovation was known for his hard work ethic he is not considered a super talent , of course I would never say he was not talented at RTS games I'm just saying there are a lot more players who are more talented then he is but then they didn't have his work ethic imho
The fact that his brother is already in the list of potential GOATs for his role in League of Legends makes me confident INno was not all about hard work (especially how he managed to stay relevant despite barely playing in his last LotV years)
Success is the product of both hard work and talent. Some have varying levels of each but you can't get there without both.
But I didn't realize that Gumayusi was inno's brother that's pretty cool. Wiki says he is also a distant nephew of Faker so that shit HAS to be genetic haha
To put down my 2 cents, I started watching SC2 in 2013. My memorable players from that year were Maru, Jaedong and sOs For 2015 I remember sOs, Life and Innovation
Since I have no particular memory of Rain during his 2 best years, I cannot put him in my top10
One piece and I already love the series. Great (and hard) work!
I remember initially not believing the style of Protoss that Rain pioneered was going to achieve anything. The more Artosis felt in love with it, the higher my disbelief. But he quickly proved me wrong. Later on I realized Rain forced that style to be successfull with his enormous talent. He might have selected a different one and still become a champion. But he did not, and changed the Protoss race forever.
Beautiful write up for a player who is an absolute lock for top 10 for me, look forward to the rest (although obviously I am still affronted to not be consulted)
On January 14 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote: Beautiful write up for a player who is an absolute lock for top 10 for me, look forward to the rest (although obviously I am still affronted to not be consulted)
True democrats know that the only real GOAT has to be elected through a 6 months long voting process. Serral 18th greatest SC2 player forever.
On January 13 2024 07:29 t5Fab wrote: To put down my 2 cents, I started watching SC2 in 2013. My memorable players from that year were Maru, Jaedong and sOs For 2015 I remember sOs, Life and Innovation
Since I have no particular memory of Rain during his 2 best years, I cannot put him in my top10
This is pretty much how i feel, i was still half-watching SC2 during HotS, and i don't remember watching or hearing anything much about Rain. It doesn't seem he has many achievements either, though I know it's still pretty good for the length of his short career. Throw Taeja in (maybe Zest) and the players you named are all the ones I felt were the era-defining players.
On January 14 2024 22:28 WombaT wrote: Beautiful write up for a player who is an absolute lock for top 10 for me, look forward to the rest (although obviously I am still affronted to not be consulted)
True democrats know that the only real GOAT has to be elected through a 6 months long voting process. Serral 18th greatest SC2 player forever.
I must say, I respect the moxie required to rank him there.
I would rate Zest, MC, herO, sOs and PartinG above this guy, but I somehow doubt that they will all be in the top 10 Trap has a similar peak, right? And Stats is a more evolved macro Protoss.
Maybe you are counting in his BW career?
He only had achievements when Toss was good and at the time he was only top 3.
On January 15 2024 02:31 ejozl wrote: We get it, you're a Rain fanboi.
I would rate Zest, MC, herO, sOs and PartinG above this guy, but I somehow doubt that they will all be in the top 10 Trap has a similar peak, right? And Stats is a more evolved macro Protoss.
Maybe you are counting in his BW career?
He only had achievements when Toss was good and at the time he was only top 3.
Taking into acount the methodology I think only sOs should be clearly above him. Classic and Zest have a small chance.
On January 15 2024 02:31 ejozl wrote: We get it, you're a Rain fanboi.
I would rate Zest, MC, herO, sOs and PartinG above this guy, but I somehow doubt that they will all be in the top 10 Trap has a similar peak, right? And Stats is a more evolved macro Protoss.
Maybe you are counting in his BW career?
He only had achievements when Toss was good and at the time he was only top 3.
Parting?
I don’t see any kind of objective metric that puts him ahead of Rain.
On January 15 2024 02:31 ejozl wrote: We get it, you're a Rain fanboi.
I would rate Zest, MC, herO, sOs and PartinG above this guy, but I somehow doubt that they will all be in the top 10 Trap has a similar peak, right? And Stats is a more evolved macro Protoss.
Maybe you are counting in his BW career?
He only had achievements when Toss was good and at the time he was only top 3.
I love PartinG more than most and this is pure cope.
On January 12 2024 06:08 ShowTheLights wrote: Rain is the 2nd most talented brood war player to ever touch that game. it goes Flash -> Rain -> Nada in terms of TALENT/geniusness
Also if MMA isn't on this list I will RIOT
TRIPLE CROWN WINNER with PREMIERE titles in NA Europe and Korea 2x GSL champion Most clutch team league player EVER, GSTL champion x2 Blizzcon runner up Pioneer of Terran multi drop play One of the VERY FEW to be able to beat IMMvp consistently Plus the time span he was dominant, from his first GSL + MLG to the last HSC he won
MMA is almost certainly on this list, I would be surprised if he doesn't end up somewhere pretty high like top 5.
See I think it will be very hard for him to slip through the last 9 spots.
The top 6 is probably locked in: (in alphabetical order) Innovation, Maru, Mvp, Rogue, Serral, Zest. Top 7 depending on their position on including Life. I would be shocked if it's not those topping the ranking. Considering who's the writer I have an incling for one of the would-be last two players, but I could be wrong.
It would leave us with just one spot, which is also maybe the most exciting one. Could be MMA, TaeJa, Dark, sOs, Stats, Reynor, MC...
This was almost exactly my thinking as well on it! I'm very excited to see who clinches that final spot. I suspect sOs or MMA, but my heart wants MMA or MC.
Taeja is one of the greats in my mind, but when I look at how this is scored, honestly there's zero chance Taeja makes the list.
Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
Although someone could do the same and pull any game where ByuN tries to split
All I see are Luosplits when ByuN plays. You can't convince me it's actually ByuN playing.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
He was made to play protoss, I mean mech, definitely mech.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Flash never won an SC2 starleague, his only trophy was IEM Toronto 2014 (an epic tournament for those who remember).
Soulkey won a GSL in 2013, and a KSL and ASL on his return to BW. If you don't include events from after the 2016 BW revival, no one has won a starleague in both games. The closest is maybe soO? He was making ro4s in BW and then countless finals in SC2.
Oh my goodness, I forgot that Flash's win was an IEM! I just remember being so hyped for it that I completely thought it was a starleague, but of course you're right. And of course Soulkey, just had a big brain fart, thanks! It's kinda cool that Rain and Soulkey were two of the top players during the kespa sc2 transition (in addition to inno), and they turn out to be incredible BW players in the post-2016 era as well, which really shows their raw talent
If you wanted to push the narrative that players used to be really bad, just pull up any TvZ where Flash tries to play bio. His splits are beyond horrendous.
I wouldn't use marine splitting as any kind of indication of player skill, or 2011 Happy is one of the greatest ever
So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
On January 15 2024 10:17 Fango wrote: Where would Rain rank on an all-time Starcraft list? His combined achievements probably don't surpass what others have in either BW or SC2, but he's gotta be up there
Who other than Rain and Flash have won starleagues (OSL/MSL/ASL & GSL/OSL/SSL) in both games? Not rhetorical, can't remember who I'm forgetting. And if we strike out ASL, is Flash the only one?
Soulkey
Flash never got close to winning Code S in sc2. Guy had lead hands.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
On January 18 2024 19:46 Haighstrom wrote: Very surprised to see Rain hit top 10 in this list, my recollection of him was always one of slight disappointment, perhaps because he won a GSL, and then never reached that level again, perhaps because he was yet another Protoss player that Artosis endlessly hyped, so every loss was outlined more clearly. I was really excited about him and it never quite paid off.
Open minded to see who else makes top 10 and who might have missed out for him, but feeling I might not support this one in the end. I've read the article and heard the justifications, but my feeling is his legacy as a Kespa/BW player may have coloured his SC2 placement here. Maybe top 15 but probably not top 10 for me.
This a Goat list for sc2 so "Rain being good at BW" has zero influence. It's just a complimentary thing to say and these are flattering articles.
Still, it's a bold pick to put the #44 in sc2 earnings in your top 10. Of course prize money does not always reflect a tournament's worth (Neeb #12 in earnings?! Quite a surprise too!) but this is really a huge gap.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
My concern is that argument that Rain was best in 2012-2015 based primarily on his titles in 2012 and 2015 specifically is kind of weird when you consider that Zest accomplished more in 2014-2016 (like I was not fact checking everything but on titles and in my memory at least). Those two periods mostly overlap and Zest's peak is more dense in success (if you know what I mean).
I mean I understand what is the thought process behind statement of "best in 2012-2015" is a little bit misleading.
On January 18 2024 18:48 nimdil wrote: So the boundaries 2012-2015 are based on his individual peak? That's very weird - he is great because he was best at his best? I think it should more broadly be assessed during KeSPA period so 2012-2016.
Rain literally retired before 2016 lol
I think that's a pretty reasonable concern to have if you only have this first Rain article to go by, and aren't sure what the chosen endpoints will be for each player.
For the most part, players get the most flattering "prime" timeframe chosen, which definitely has some problems, but it's reasonably consistent in the overall approach (so if you think it's a bad methodology, at least it's fair).
My concern is that argument that Rain was best in 2012-2015 based primarily on his titles in 2012 and 2015 specifically is kind of weird when you consider that Zest accomplished more in 2014-2016 (like I was not fact checking everything but on titles and in my memory at least). Those two periods mostly overlap and Zest's peak is more dense in success (if you know what I mean).
I mean I understand what is the thought process behind statement of "best in 2012-2015" is a little bit misleading.
Any list such as this one will have to compare players who competed in vastly different eras. In order to mitigate the subjectivity that comes with making statistical 'conversions' between time periods, my starting point was to group players by time-period and compare them against their peers.
Here are the four main divisions: 2010 to 2012: Pre-KeSPA/WoL 2013-2015: "Peak" KeSPA/HotS 2016-2017: Early LotV 2018 and later: Post-KeSPA Of course, cross-era comparisons were unavoidable when compiling the final ranking, but this was a better method than trying to directly compare the resumes of, say, Nestea and Reynor.
This is from the Intro post. It makes sense to me to not have early lotv to not be in the same category as HotS.
Happy that you included Rain, he is my favorite Protoss to date. He played a completely different style from his peers and never really deviated. The consistency and the adaptability never cease to amaze.
Always wondered what would happen if he stayed in SC2 longer. IMO he would likely make it to any top-10 GOAT list.
Not sure where else to put this, but I thought it was an interesting fact: the last time that Protoss was the "leading" race on Aligulac was in 2015 with Rain at the forefront. Coincidence? Probably, but what are narratives but convenient coincidences anyway