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On September 21 2023 03:28 Kreuger wrote:"With the new Patch 5.0.12 released today, we've tried to the accomplish the following goals," I read it as its live, doesnt mention PTR. I dont play the game myself , only watches so cant confirm sadly.
They have edited their post:
"En Taro Adun
With the new PTR Patch 5.0.12 released today, we've tried to the accomplish the following goals,"
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Cyclone meta is back in TvT boys. Can't wait. /s
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Northern Ireland27236 Posts
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect
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On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect
Nah, making mech work in TvP is way more important than having three viable factions at the pro level.
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United States1945 Posts
On September 21 2023 04:48 Devangel wrote:
New 2v2 maps is exciting. old ones have not changed since forever, even though they are very good and I got used to them so much
Maybe new maps will revive 2v2 a bit, in like 2021-early 2022 it used to be just 1-2 minutes to find a 2v2 game on D1-M3 game, nowadays its 3-5 minutes on EU server
You're aware that every map in the pool (other than Sludge City) is either a great ling flood map, a map that has really abusive tank/blink stalker/reaper spots or a super easy turtle map, right?
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On September 21 2023 06:38 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect Nah, making mech work in TvP is way more important than having three viable factions at the pro level.
1. It's PTR, not live.
2. Pretty sure the real issue with Protoss is the pool of pro players that is actually weaker than Zerg an Terran
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WOO now it'll be much easier to test games.
Thoughts:
OMG the warhound-on-skates made it through??
It seemed pretty massable/boring, which I'm disappointed cus the current Cyclone has lots of cool stuff...
But as a mech player... I'll take it if it's strong and helps make other mech play work l0l
It does seem to be kind of a middleground between the current sniper-y Cyclone and the frontline torpedo Cyclone that did like 50 dmg a second. The current Cyclone's Lock-On can be countered easily by Blink, the torpedo one was less so since it fought with its auto attack, but still countered since they were slower and couldn't pick off Stalkers that Blinked back. The new patch one is better at fighting up front and could also chase down Stalkers that are trying to blink back.
I don't like the idea of homogenizing units like T3 capital ships to be more microable and losing more of their identity.
They have lots of range and should be balanced by being slower, being faster will promote players to ball them up more instead of spreading them out positionally.
Having massable, mobile air units promotes deathballing. Air units are already mobile by nature, they can stack and sit over cliffs.
If capital ships were slowed down, it would encourage players to outmaneuver with T1 and T2 units.
Capital ships would have to be used more sparingly as support units, or have to be spread across bases defensively (which is fine as long as they're not in a deathball).
The Consume buff is still arguably the most absurd balance change in the history of SC2. The reasoning for it does not logically follow the actual change.
People will just try to consume with even lower HP buildings, and still underestimate the HP drain and accidentally kill it.
Why is it so hard to just click extractors or making additional Evos? If mech sieges 1 second too late, they can lose the game.
Intentionally risking losing your Hive due to greed should be heavily punished. Losing Hive often isn't even game ending at all.
Also after 13 years of continually nerfing Queen's offensive power and realizing over and over that it's STILL too strong at attacking... we decide to BUFF queen drops? Who wanted that?
But oh well, i guess some changes always make the game a bit fresher even if I don't like a lot of them.
One thing I do like about the BL change is that broodlings do way less now. They move quite slow and aren't able to get many attacks off and trap your units, especially Thors.
So Thors should be even stronger in an upfront fight now which is great. And more able to retreat or stutter step forward if they try to retreat. And Zerg gets a little mobility in return, which is fine cus it's Zerg-y.
Also thank god banelings are being nerfed, hated how Zerg can just suicide mass banelings into your 3rd/4th as mech, and no amount of turtling could save you.
Banelings being good at BOTH killing armies and killing static defense is pretty crazy by design.
Banelings being good vs buildings used to be cool for baneling busts in WoL, but with all the economy changes I don't think we need 6 Banelings to be able to bust down a Terran's depot on 1 base anymore. It makes it so hard for Protoss to protect their buildings too; clumped static def is easily taken out by banelings, and spread out static def is incredibly weak to cracklings...
I think zerglings sneaking by a zealot/adept at the wall, and cracklings/banelings being too good vs static def, are pretty big things that make Protoss weak vs Zerg at the top level. When all other things are relatively equal, losing an occasional game due to being 1 pixel off or the zerglings glitching past is way too punishing for what it is. And it's way too easy to have a slightly imperfect defense once after defending several zergling/baneling runbys successfully, and then losing 15 probes and not being able to recover. You should be able to clump up your static def to better deal with cracklings, but banelings are good at clumped buildings...
Perhaps baneling building AOE can be reworked so that it doesn't splash other buildings nearly as much. Make it more of a single building attack.
It's also a problem that Protoss doesn't scale as well as Zerg and Terran in the endgame. Terran has mass MULE to get a bigger army. Protoss can easily reinforce to a battle with warpgate sure, but usually you aren't reinforcing with zealots/stalkers lategame unless if you want stalkers vs mass BC or BLs. And Archons are slow due to needing to merge. Zerg can mass mobile spores, and get more supply than 200. Making 20 spores and cancelling so you can have 10 more Corruptors is quite significant. It hugely changes the math in a fight.
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On September 21 2023 07:01 Swaann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 06:38 QOGQOG wrote:On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect Nah, making mech work in TvP is way more important than having three viable factions at the pro level. 1. It's PTR, not live. 2. Pretty sure the real issue with Protoss is the pool of pro players that is actually weaker than Zerg an Terran
whether that is true or not, you have to work with what you got. its not healthy for 1 race to win much less than the other two.
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Alive game, baby. Glad the patch is now semi-official. Hope the PTR proves fruitful.
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On September 21 2023 07:01 Swaann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 06:38 QOGQOG wrote:On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect Nah, making mech work in TvP is way more important than having three viable factions at the pro level. 1. It's PTR, not live. 2. Pretty sure the real issue with Protoss is the pool of pro players that is actually weaker than Zerg an Terran
1. It's the second pass at the patch, so the changes are likely to go live.
2. Any proof of this? In terms of truly top tier players, there aren't that many for any race. Protoss has herO and Classic, two of the best of all time, and a lot of very strong players like MaxPax, Creator, and Astrea. PartinG and Trap are the only recent big Protoss players who aren't currently competing that I can think of. Hell, even Stats and sOs are around.
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On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Probably same guy that tried to add the Warhound to the game.
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On September 21 2023 07:45 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 07:01 Swaann wrote:On September 21 2023 06:38 QOGQOG wrote:On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Feels to me very much a phase two if the more general balancing/QoL stuff has the desired effect Nah, making mech work in TvP is way more important than having three viable factions at the pro level. 1. It's PTR, not live. 2. Pretty sure the real issue with Protoss is the pool of pro players that is actually weaker than Zerg an Terran whether that is true or not, you have to work with what you got. its not healthy for 1 race to win much less than the other two.
Not trying to diss any players, so I will keep this hypothetical:
Are you seriously saying that if the best Zerg and Terran have like "90 skill points" and the best Protoss has "75 skill points", Protoss should get buffed enough to balance these missing points out?
As for the other guy: Protoss might still have some great names around, but not only are a lot of them half-retired (like Stats or sOs), but they also already fulfilled their military service. While the top zergs and terrans in Korea (Dark, Cure, Maru, Solar) have competed without break.
And from all the Protoss that have returned I would argue that only herO has become better, a lot of them (like Classic) still struggle to reach former glories.
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On September 21 2023 11:10 Balnazza wrote:
As for the other guy: Protoss might still have some great names around, but not only are a lot of them half-retired (like Stats or sOs), but they also already fulfilled their military service. While the top zergs and terrans in Korea (Dark, Cure, Maru, Solar) have competed without break.
And from all the Protoss that have returned I would argue that only herO has become better, a lot of them (like Classic) still struggle to reach former glories.
This is absurd. Protoss can't just be underpowered because Protoss players aren't playing well. How do we know they're doing poorly due to skill rather than balance? Uh, I dunno, you feel like they're just not that good. But that's definitely why.
If Protoss had a dip in results for a few months, even a year, maybe I could buy what you're saying. But it's been much longer than that. Protoss won 1/13 International Premier events in 2020, 5/16 in 2021, 3/13 in 2022, and so far in 2023 0/6. That's 9/48 or a little under 19%. "Protoss players bad" isn't an adequate explanation.
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I'm waiting to adopt a wait and see approach with the Cyclone, new maps are also going to throw a wrench into alot of game plans for the pros. This change is going to cause every Terran and their mother to experiment with Cyclone openings/compositions so *shrug* all we can do is wait and see I guess. I feel the same way about the Mothership changes, just gotta wait and see.
Most of these changes are actually decent though, the baneling change is a pretty big nerf and is imo long overdue. EMP nerfs, Snipe being tuned to be less of a hard counter against Ultralisks, Immortal barrier change (really good), Lurkers being a wee bit slower, all these things are pretty good. The Hydra changes seem okay, obviously it's going to cause alot of Zergs to experiment with timing attacks.
I still think an opportunity to make Protoss stronger is being missed with the Sentry not getting some more heavy handed changes. The duration increase for Guardian Shield is okay but there could be more, and buffing the Sentry could go a long way into giving Protoss more options.
Guardian Shield
- Now increases movement speed of all units inside by 25 %, this would give early game GW forces more agility to either commit to an attack or to defend better, would also let GW units engage bio easier before Charge/Blink.
- Force Field now requires two Corrosive Biles to destroy. This would make Force Fields much stronger vs. Zerg, and force Zerg to respect Protoss attacks more by having to make a decision between using Ravagers to knock down the FF or to use them for damage.
Neither of these changes would break the game, or make Protoss overpowered, they would just give Protoss more options. I know nothing is going to change, these are just the changes I WISH would get passed through.
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On September 21 2023 09:10 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 05:52 WombaT wrote:
I don’t mind most of it I’m just a little confused why they seem so intent to put through the cyclone changes
Probably same guy that tried to add the Warhound to the game.
It's not blizzard though this patch is made by harstem and those people
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On September 21 2023 12:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 11:10 Balnazza wrote:
As for the other guy: Protoss might still have some great names around, but not only are a lot of them half-retired (like Stats or sOs), but they also already fulfilled their military service. While the top zergs and terrans in Korea (Dark, Cure, Maru, Solar) have competed without break.
And from all the Protoss that have returned I would argue that only herO has become better, a lot of them (like Classic) still struggle to reach former glories.
This is absurd. Protoss can't just be underpowered because Protoss players aren't playing well. How do we know they're doing poorly due to skill rather than balance? Uh, I dunno, you feel like they're just not that good. But that's definitely why. If Protoss had a dip in results for a few months, even a year, maybe I could buy what you're saying. But it's been much longer than that. Protoss won 1/13 International Premier events in 2020, 5/16 in 2021, 3/13 in 2022, and so far in 2023 0/6. That's 9/48 or a little under 19%. "Protoss players bad" isn't an adequate explanation.
So basically Protoss had one shitty year (2020), a perfectly average year ('21), a sligthly below average year ('22) and one really terrible year again thus far? That is...not that impressive? Not that tournament winnings is a real indicator. I honestly would be worried if through all the years the split of tournament winnings would be 33% exactly, because that would feel like player skill was eliminated completly from the equation...
Just look at the list of Protoss players in the last GSL qualifier...which of these players in your opinion should be winning Premier events? And yes, I mean *should be*, so the level of the likes of Maru and Serral, who when they drop out before the Top 4 you would consider it a bad showing.
herO? Obvious choice, but it isn't like he was an Uber-Tier player in the past. Classic? I think it is safe to say his performance in the WTL Code A wasn't a balance-issue. Creator? A guy that was a great ace for Prime, but hasn't done much else in his career? The half-retired Stats?
Or is the tournament winning skill of Nightmare, Nice and Astrea really just burrowed under balance-problems? Who knows, but I somehow doubt it
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France13011 Posts
On September 21 2023 14:28 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2023 12:06 QOGQOG wrote:On September 21 2023 11:10 Balnazza wrote:
As for the other guy: Protoss might still have some great names around, but not only are a lot of them half-retired (like Stats or sOs), but they also already fulfilled their military service. While the top zergs and terrans in Korea (Dark, Cure, Maru, Solar) have competed without break.
And from all the Protoss that have returned I would argue that only herO has become better, a lot of them (like Classic) still struggle to reach former glories.
This is absurd. Protoss can't just be underpowered because Protoss players aren't playing well. How do we know they're doing poorly due to skill rather than balance? Uh, I dunno, you feel like they're just not that good. But that's definitely why. If Protoss had a dip in results for a few months, even a year, maybe I could buy what you're saying. But it's been much longer than that. Protoss won 1/13 International Premier events in 2020, 5/16 in 2021, 3/13 in 2022, and so far in 2023 0/6. That's 9/48 or a little under 19%. "Protoss players bad" isn't an adequate explanation. So basically Protoss had one shitty year (2020), a perfectly average year ('21), a sligthly below average year ('22) and one really terrible year again thus far? That is...not that impressive? Not that tournament winnings is a real indicator. I honestly would be worried if through all the years the split of tournament winnings would be 33% exactly, because that would feel like player skill was eliminated completly from the equation... Just look at the list of Protoss players in the last GSL qualifier...which of these players in your opinion should be winning Premier events? And yes, I mean *should be*, so the level of the likes of Maru and Serral, who when they drop out before the Top 4 you would consider it a bad showing. herO? Obvious choice, but it isn't like he was an Uber-Tier player in the past. Classic? I think it is safe to say his performance in the WTL Code A wasn't a balance-issue. Creator? A guy that was a great ace for Prime, but hasn't done much else in his career? The half-retired Stats? Or is the tournament winning skill of Nightmare, Nice and Astrea really just burrowed under balance-problems? Who knows, but I somehow doubt it
I mean if the game were to be perfectly balanced Maru would win 80%+ of the tournaments and it wouldn’t be super funny
It’s alright to have a little bit of imbalance in order to keep things fun, the difficulty is to have the right amount in order to make the current scene as healthy as possible
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On September 21 2023 03:28 Kreuger wrote:"With the new Patch 5.0.12 released today, we've tried to the accomplish the following goals," I read it as its live, doesnt mention PTR. I dont play the game myself , only watches so cant confirm sadly.
if you click through to the patch notes it says "PTR release", though. So I'll side with the idea that they aren't completely mad and releasing an untested balance patch straight into the live game.
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Speed upgrade replaced with Caduceus Reactor
Community Council Comment: Replaces the current unused Medivac upgrade
So why is unused? cuz most play map is 1v1 small map. do you have play map like big game hunter? try cross the map with 5-6 medivac with full unit and you will know how important is speed upgrade.
my biggest question is why replace upgrade why not try just add it??? may be the core have not place? may be with 1 more unuse upgrade can change very much pro game？or 8 bronze who play 4v4 big game hunter is not so important
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EPT
