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On November 03 2023 17:04 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2023 00:36 Pentarp wrote:On November 02 2023 05:35 Decendos wrote:On November 01 2023 03:49 Pentarp wrote:On October 31 2023 17:21 Decendos wrote:On October 31 2023 13:08 Pentarp wrote:On October 31 2023 01:14 Archeon wrote:On October 28 2023 21:25 Vision_ wrote:On October 23 2023 19:07 ejozl wrote:On October 20 2023 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
[quote]
It's really weird to me too that Liberators can also be reactored. It's a flying siege tank.
The cyclone is in a weird spot. Design wise it's weird that it can be reactored, yet still takes the same ~30 secs to build.
Balance wise, it makes sense though. Mech has trouble producing units early on since Factories are expensive. So being able to reactor out cheap all-rounder units early on helps smoothen out the early game.
The part that sucks is that Blink Stalkers still counter them a bit too hard.
It would be ideal if the autoattack was strengthened and the lock-on was a slightly weaker attack.
Or if the cyclone's lock on made it move a little slower and in return got more range or damage.
That kind of design would make Blink micro less impactful and make the Cyclone more interesting and have more counterplay. The Cyclone and the Stalker is the exact same unit now. Same costs and +vs Mech and +vs Armoured is almost the same. They are both striders that need micro to make them good and they both scale poorly with upgrades. If Cyclones beats Stalkers or vice versa, it just means that it is a stronger unit. What they should do is not make boring ass same units. Mech has Tanks to counter Stalkers, so it does not need Cyclones to do this. However, it ofc needs to do more vs. Stalkers than Hellions. First statement : Cyclones looks like to stalkers If first statement is true, it s possible to compare the cyclone redesign error of the council menber with a reproduction of an older unit, which means somehow that council members target well one of Protoss issue but not adress a good patch. As you know stalkers are really controversial units and depends a lot of your skill level, pro, hardcore or casual. So, in assuming first statement is true, it s also possible to say that stalkers are mainly because of their expensive price, the most relative cost efficient unit depending of your skill (need as much skill as marines split). Second Statement : Stalkers are the most relative cost efficient unit (depending of your skill) If you agree on this reasonning, which means 2) is a direct consequence of 1) then Stalkers roles can be considered as an harassement/kitting unit excepting in end game where they suffer of their lack of dps. In other terms, the only way to fix Protoss is to emphasize his harassement role in end game then the bonus against light units must be increased in regard of some reduction of their statistics (with why not switching tag from heavy to 'light' or 'none' also) or with a tought new upgrade. Then a decisive part of the rework is to decide if this tweak need the addition of a new basic unit as dragoon or a second tweak of the blink upgrade but it will decrease the gameplay in all area of the game whatever you are casual, hardcore or pros That s why i m for adding the dragoon : this kind of change will help casual and hardcore gamer to masterize Protoss better, and pros will be happy to keep their threat key unit which can be improved in their role especially in end game. Then you have to care about the obvious overlaping function with dark templars upgrade, which will require now something different; you also have to remove adepts. I m thinking if i m right that there s not so many variations. By now SC2 need more discussing about stalkers attributes which are armored AND fast movement with slow dps,... that s a little bit confusing with the RTS code Here my wishes after this patch ( Bring back Infested Terrans !!! ) - Restore old cyclones (for now) - Add Dragoon as basic unit with some upgrades and specificities - Remove Adepts to preserve the number of units - Blink Dark Templars upgrade remove in exchange of a new upgrade - Stalkers is now an harrasement unit (emphasis on his role, light or none armor ? increase bonus against light / bonus upgrade ? supply cost from 2 to 3 ?) I feel like at this point you could just give adepts anti-air and move stalkers as a heavier anti-air option (with better stats) into robotics. BvL is pretty weak on anti-air anyways, so you'd prolly just keep stalkers for anti-air unless you go phoenix. You'd solve gateway all-ins and protoss lategame supply efficiency issues if you buffed the stalker a bit and gateway would transition more into harass instead of army core. You'd prolly need to reduce robo cost in exchange, but tbh I'd like to see reduced protoss t2 production building cost anyways even if we aren't talking sweeping changes to units. I don't get why Protoss has to pay way more for their unit production buildings than any other race, they'd have so much more options if every Robo or SG didn't cost an immortal. The way it is now they just have to keep spamming gateway units cause they can't afford the upgraded production buildings. In the meantime Terran can reactor for a quarter of the cost and zerg's production buildings cost only minerals. It's also one of the reasons we rarely see MS and why Protoss transitions/mixed tech takes forever, the cost to tech switch are just nutty. With the nerfs to Stargate openings it's even worse. Like the main problem with PvT is that in midgame Protoss can't trade with the bio ball/ghost+medivacs, especially not if they get supported by mines/tanks/libs. They don't have a robo/gw unit other than the disruptor that doesn't get beaten by tanks and the disruptor is highly unreliable. If P had an easier time adding tempests that would be subject to change. Since when is a Terran army with ghosts and libs considered midgame? That's pretty much end-game comp for Terrans. definetly. and while the ghost in masses is still too strong the biggest thing to look at in my opinion for midgame should be medivac healingrate / medivac energy regen. MMM has always been and still is too strong if there arent the perfect counters around for specific timings. Best thing would be to not nerf MMM itself but make stimming hurt more. at least that would bring more counter play from opponents like stim and retreat and more decision making on both sides like "do i stim again or retreat etc." or "do i let the nexus / hatch after i suck out another stim or not etc." The year is 2023. Civilization has collapsed. Yet, people are still complaining about MMM like it's 2010. then talking about T being too strong in midgame...well that else to look at? it´s a smaller problem in TvZ although even there too many games are instantly lost to just 16 marinedrops still but more so in TvP. That's exactly it. There's no clear indication that T is too strong in the midgame. T is strongest in mid-game, for sure. But other races are able to overcome it and reach late-game that is stronger than T. It's still a little early with the new cyclone patch. I think the most prudent course of action is to monitor the interactions and see the effect at competitive levels. If we see overrepresentation of Terrans, that's another indication. So far, I'm not seeing it. If you're dying to 16 marine drop, it's a skill issue. lots of pros die to it especially with the 2 rax reaper openings into fast 16 marine drop since it´s really easy for T to execute and really hard to miscalculate as Z with engaging too early, not enough queen support, bad surround etc. --> thats just 1 example of MMM medivacs being too strong (its not marines oder marauders). if T is too weak after nerfing medivac healing rate or energy regen just buff T in another way. its not a "winrate" issue.
I dont know if you can make too many queens in TvZ. Look at Serral.
Again, if something is too easy and too powerful, you'll see Terran pros use it to reach higher stages of competition. See: BL/infestor and blinkstalker era. Every pro abused those strats.
This recent GSL has really balanced representation with a zerg winning finals. Ultimately, its some to watch and see unfold.
On November 04 2023 05:27 [Phantom] wrote:
As an annecdotal experience (i'm not master), My ladder games are now like 7 terrans,2 protoss and 1 zerg. (that's the last 10 games in my match history)
The ammount of terrans on ladder is absurd, and very very few zergs
Zerg's macro cycle is too hard at lower tiers. Im not surprised.
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Patch 5.0.12 is a game-changer for starcraft II. It's all about enhancing Protoss early-game stability, diversifying mid-late game compositions, and making specialized units more relevant. Visual clarity improvements and greater late-game interaction are cherries on Top. https://carxstreetapkk.com/ This update promises a more exciting and Versatile competitive scene. Kudos to the development team! 🚀🎮
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ESL Masters participants by race. Source: Liquipedia
Europe____ P18_ T6_ Z5
Americas___P5__ T6_ Z5
Asia_______P9__ T4_ Z3
While balance at the pinnacle of skill has been the gold standard, the "lower" levels of of play also matter.
A big chunk of viewership will be watching the qualifiers, playoffs and semi-finals. Those games should not be dominated by one race. Ideally, there should be roughly even representation. Viewers should be able to enjoy the full variety of the games possible in SC2.
Balance at lower-tiers also impact pros and semi-pros who can offset their expenses with smaller tournaments. The health of the scene should be viewed holistically when considering balance.
Again, I re-iterate that the new patch is still being figured out by pros and the meta will settle.
But going forward, I hope that Protoss can be rewarded more for their skill and punished more for their mistakes. This will mean that top Protoss will be able to win more tourneys but lower-tiers will not be so dominated by Protoss.
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I went through the premier tournaments list (discounting wcs america) and counted every unique finalist.
Void Ray patch: 6 aug 2020 -> 23 jan 2023:
t:
clem,maru,cure,ty,bunny
5
z:
reynor,serral,rogue,dark,solar,lambo,ragnarok
7
p:
stats,trap,zoun,zest,creator,hero,astrea
7
Now doing the same for patches since the cabal took over (overcharge nerf, void ray nerf, disruptor nerf) 23 Jan and forward:
t:
oliveira,maru,cure,gumiho
4
z:
serral,reynor,dark,solar
4
p:
maxpax
1
Coupled with the fact that only 1 Protoss (herO) is in the top 10 earners for 2023.
Then it's easy to see why people are not happy with the state of the game. And you really shouldn't be surprised if this has already resulted/will result in a 2/3 of the viewership for tournaments. I can speak for me personally that ESL open Cups have become more exciting than top tournaments, because of the fact that Protoss actually have a decent shot at winning.
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Protoss has the worst depth of individual player skill in 2023.
Trap is retired
Zest is retired
Stats came back but isn't anywhere near his old form
MaxPax only attends online
Classic and Creator are decent
herO has very shaky or poor performance since a long time now
Its really not that hard to see. Saying that Protoss is weak and that results in poor performance is just false. If you cloned MaxPax 5x, tournaments would look vastly different.
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On November 14 2023 03:31 TaKeTV wrote:
Protoss has the worst depth of individual player skill in 2023.
Trap is retired
Zest is retired
Stats came back but isn't anywhere near his old form
MaxPax only attends online
Classic and Creator are decent
herO has very shaky or poor performance since a long time now
Its really not that hard to see. Saying that Protoss is weak and that results in poor performance is just false. If you cloned MaxPax 5x, tournaments would look vastly different.
Your post would make at least some sense if:
-Stats, Trap, Zest, and Classic collectively won anything bigger than a Super Tournament after MSC was removed. But instead all they did was win smaller premier tournaments once in a while, while getting curb stomped by Terran/Zerg in the big time tournaments in terms of prestige and/or prize money that we tend to consider the pinnacle of Starcraft 2 play (Blizzcon, Katowice, Code S). Funnily enough, the sole Protoss player that one time managed overcome these odds and go on a miracle run is the guy you think is the shakiest, herO. Funny how that works.
-MaxPax actually won big, even in terms of online events. Where are his impressive tournament wins even online? Claiming that Protoss doesn’t win tournaments because MaxPax only plays online is ridiculous.
-And herO’s “very shaky or poor performance” didn’t start immediately after the unwarranted nerf to Protoss (overcharge nerf, Disruptor nerf, Carrier nerf, etc)….You know, the same state of the game in which a player like Oliviera could do something that Protoss legends have been unable to do for 6 years. When Hurricane beats Rogue once in a ST, Protoss timings are too OP and they are nerfed. When Oliviera makes a dream run knocking out the best P/Z players in the world in the biggest tournament of the year to become world champion, we just chalk it up to Terran "depth of talent" - one must look at the context of everything. Protoss is not treated the same way as T/Z, and it's been that way for several years, and the consequences have been significant in terms of tournament performance.
By the way if you cloned MaxPax (who is by all metrics worse than herO at actually winning) 5x, Protoss tournament performance would still be weak, just like it was when in-form Stats, Zest, Classic, and Trap were the top of the race and still unable to do anything but win a code s here and there or something. And, no offense to MaxPax, because he’s a hell of a player, but he is not in the same league as Stats, Zest, in-form Classic, and Trap were, or herO is now.
It's also easy to write off a player like Creator as merely "decent" when he plays a race as unforgiving at their level of play as Protoss - the man is a recent GSL finalist
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On November 14 2023 07:52 NoMacroNoHonour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2023 03:31 TaKeTV wrote:
Protoss has the worst depth of individual player skill in 2023.
Trap is retired
Zest is retired
Stats came back but isn't anywhere near his old form
MaxPax only attends online
Classic and Creator are decent
herO has very shaky or poor performance since a long time now
Its really not that hard to see. Saying that Protoss is weak and that results in poor performance is just false. If you cloned MaxPax 5x, tournaments would look vastly different. Your post would make at least some sense if: -Stats, Trap, Zest, and Classic collectively won anything bigger than a Super Tournament after MSC was removed. But instead all they did was win smaller premier tournaments once in a while, while getting curb stomped by Terran/Zerg in the big time tournaments in terms of prestige and/or prize money that we tend to consider the pinnacle of Starcraft 2 play (Blizzcon, Katowice, Code S). Funnily enough, the sole Protoss player that one time managed overcome these odds and go on a miracle run is the guy you think is the shakiest, herO. Funny how that works. -MaxPax actually won big, even in terms of online events. Where are his impressive tournament wins even online? Claiming that Protoss doesn’t win tournaments because MaxPax only plays online is ridiculous. -And herO’s “very shaky or poor performance” didn’t start immediately after the unwarranted nerf to Protoss (overcharge nerf, Disruptor nerf, Carrier nerf, etc)….You know, the same state of the game in which a player like Oliviera could do something that Protoss legends have been unable to do for 6 years. When Hurricane beats Rogue once in a ST, Protoss timings are too OP and they are nerfed. When Oliviera makes a dream run knocking out the best P/Z players in the world in the biggest tournament of the year to become world champion, we just chalk it up to Terran "depth of talent" - one must look at the context of everything. Protoss is not treated the same way as T/Z, and it's been that way for several years, and the consequences have been significant in terms of tournament performance. By the way if you cloned MaxPax (who is by all metrics worse than herO at actually winning) 5x, Protoss tournament performance would still be weak, just like it was when in-form Stats, Zest, Classic, and Trap were the top of the race and still unable to do anything but win a code s here and there or something. And, no offense to MaxPax, because he’s a hell of a player, but he is not in the same league as Stats, Zest, in-form Classic, and Trap were, or herO is now. It's also easy to write off a player like Creator as merely "decent" when he plays a race as unforgiving at their level of play as Protoss - the man is a recent GSL finalist
Great counterarguments
Creator is not at all just decent. Sure he has trouble staying calm sometimes and chokes sometimes, but let's look at all the games where he doesn't do that. The dude shows so many impressive feats in games. Remember when he took 2 games off Rogue in the finals? And he was close to taking a 3rd game as well if he killed that proxy hatch that had like 10 HP left. Even players like Trap wouldn't be expected to necessarily be able to take 2 games off of Rogue in a Code S Bo7 Finals. Classic is also very solid recently, and was one of the top Protoss of LotV.
Zerg is known to have been overpowered around 2019, or at least the strongest race for much of LotV. So clearly, it's safe to say that Protoss has been weak. You could say Terran has been weak as well, if not for the recent 2 patches making PvT hard for Protoss (battery nerf without compensating for it along with interference matrix timing buffs).
Don't forget that sOs only retired in 2021. The guy who won 3 world championships during HotS. Something is wrong with Protoss in LotV, and it's easy to see. Look at how many games GSL players lose to a ling flood, whether they misplace their adept/zealot at the wall by a pixel, or when they place it correctly but they glitch the lings past by spam clicking. If such a small mistake gets punished by losing a game, you have yourself a fragile and very punishing race. If it leads to even just a few pros losing games a year, that's too much already.
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I will go to my grave believing Trap would have been a Maru-level legend if he didn't play Protoss
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Northern Ireland24250 Posts
On November 14 2023 11:30 Zambrah wrote:
I will go to my grave believing Trap would have been a Maru-level legend if he didn't play Protoss
Speak for yourself :p
Nah he’s not quite there but he’s the most absurdly underrated player in the whole scene IMO, and definitely the most underrated Protoss.
Look how much he actually won when the entire race won absolutely zilch, for like 1-2 years. The record for consecutive GSL Ro8+s which nobody is going to beat, at least equivalently given the format changes.
A few GSL finals and I think he’d definitely have won one if he’d got a bit of bracket luck and ran into some Ts when his PvT was absolutely out of this world good. Had the full gamut of aggression thru reactive macro under his belt and was incredibly, incredibly clean.
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His sheer consistency and clean play while playing the fragile race is why I love him so much, some of the absolute tightest play on the race that just ain’t the right fit for that.
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Watching tight Protoss play is such a delight to watch. I wish for how punishing Protoss can be at times when you're not perfectly clean, that there was slightly higher peaks for the race when you do play perfect.
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On November 14 2023 14:45 Zambrah wrote:
His sheer consistency and clean play while playing the fragile race is why I love him so much, some of the absolute tightest play on the race that just ain’t the right fit for that.
hoooooooly shit you are so based
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Northern Ireland24250 Posts
On November 14 2023 15:53 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2023 14:45 Zambrah wrote:
His sheer consistency and clean play while playing the fragile race is why I love him so much, some of the absolute tightest play on the race that just ain’t the right fit for that. hoooooooly shit you are so based
As much as it was a beautiful love-in before, it’s hit another level with the entry of Trap’s undisputed number one fan!
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Trap only blemish on his resume was his lack of performance at Blizzcon/IEM Global Final. If it was him who made 2 IEM final instead of Zest, he would have a much better case to be the best Protoss player ever. Of course there is the lack of GSL but lots of Protoss didnt win that in LoTV.
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Northern Ireland24250 Posts
On November 14 2023 17:36 tigera6 wrote:
Trap only blemish on his resume was his lack of performance at Blizzcon/IEM Global Final. If it was him who made 2 IEM final instead of Zest, he would have a much better case to be the best Protoss player ever. Of course there is the lack of GSL but lots of Protoss didnt win that in LoTV.
That is a blemish but to be fair Zest’s runs were down to him coming up with some new build for those tournies and him getting absolutely stomped when his opponents figured it out, rather than him actually playing stellar StarCraft. That’s a bit harsh but you get what I mean. Trap’s peak period he was just playing really consistently well for a really long time.
I don’t think there is a Protoss GOAT, a bunch of players who excelled at various things and I can’t really rate them above each other, and there’s a fair few players who have a very Yin-Yang relationship too.
MC - The pioneer, some killer instinct. Laid the groundwork for how brutal timing attacks and all-in oriented Protoss (the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit really haha)
Rain - For my money for sheer top end talent and level, maybe the best, but a relatively short period at the top level. Laid the groundwork for how macro Protoss was played.
hero - A consistent tournament threat and Proleague player with a sometimes suicidally aggressive style.
Stats - A consistent tournament threat and Proleague player with a sometimes suicidally passive macro style.
Zest - Probably the player with the most longevity in terms of popping in and winning things. Not the most mechanically gifted player and relied a lot on innovating builds and optimising them.
Classic - Player with a ton of longevity who was very strong mechanically and a very stock standard player, although not averse to pulling off some crazy builds.
$o$ - Not the most regularly consistent contender for individual honours but boy did he peak on the biggest of stages. Also a borderline insane player stylistically at times to compensate for not quite being at the top table mechanically
Trap - Probably put in the most resolutely consistent long period of top level form of any Protoss, but flubbed his lines when on the very biggest of stages. A very stock/versatile player stylistically who excelled in execution above anything else.
Honourable mentions to HerO of the Liquid variety and Creator, two very good players who perhaps struggled in reining in emotions at times in their careers.
As much as I like to bemoan the general state of Protoss, as most of us do the one thing I would say in favour of the race is that it does facilitate a lot of different styles and flavours of play, at the top level Terrans and Zergs are a bit more homogenous.
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On November 14 2023 03:31 TaKeTV wrote:
Protoss has the worst depth of individual player skill in 2023.
Trap is retired
Zest is retired
Stats came back but isn't anywhere near his old form
MaxPax only attends online
Classic and Creator are decent
herO has very shaky or poor performance since a long time now
Its really not that hard to see. Saying that Protoss is weak and that results in poor performance is just false. If you cloned MaxPax 5x, tournaments would look vastly different.
Rogue is retired
InNoVation is retired
SoO/TY came back but aren't anywhere near their old forms
ByuN has had a very shaky or poor performance since a long time now
If there were 6 different maxpax, then yes the list would be: 6,4,4. But funnily enough, even then Protoss would still be behind on the race earnings.
I don't necessarily disagree that protoss depth is the worst, but 1/9th, or 1/10th of the total player depth is asking for a bit much.
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Damn tl morphed into reddit in this thread
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Would love to heat the balance council's thoughts after the patch since it's been a second and we have a better selection of games to analyze.
It looks like Zerg is definitely weaker against both races, especially Terran. Solar winning GSL doesn't chance my opinion on this, Solar has been in great form lately, his decision making has been top notch. Other top matchs ups I've witnessed it seems like bio trades ALOT better against banelings and using banelings for run byes into probe lines seems to have taken a bit of a dive.
I'm all good with Zerg getting nerfed a tad, but where does Protoss stand against Terran? To me they seem even weaker then they were before, and wasnt that one of the primary goals of this patch?
Next patch needs to to specifically targeted to PvT.
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On November 14 2023 17:36 tigera6 wrote:
Trap only blemish on his resume was his lack of performance at Blizzcon/IEM Global Final. If it was him who made 2 IEM final instead of Zest, he would have a much better case to be the best Protoss player ever. Of course there is the lack of GSL but lots of Protoss didnt win that in LoTV.
Yeah no ones arguing that Trap is the protoss GOAT but he absolutely is in contention for best protoss of LotV.
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Going back to the discussion of the patch, does anyone think that the new maps and their sizes are affecting balance more than some of the balance changes themselves? Cyclone, which was a huge topic, isn't used that much outside of TvT because it's still weak. Also, in TvZ, the highest level games are determined by Terran withstanding whatever Zerg can throw while they mine. If Zerg cannot mine anymore because their side of the map has no more resources, then it's GG for Zerg because Terran is too cost efficient. In Protoss matchups, the Disruptor supply nerf is affecting them pretty hard in 200/200 fights. The nerf to Banelings seems a bit too big and maybe they should at least get +5 HP back?
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EPT
