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On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote:
As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined.
Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
Why not just revert forge buff, disruptor nerf, super battery nerf? Wasn't like protoss was dominating last patch, but could win some premier tournaments.
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That would mean the "balance council" admit they were wrong with how they went with the patch. And to be honest, I think Protoss should keep the forge buff AND have the nerf reverted. Hell, they need to further buff the Robo units as well, make Immortal more micro-able, increase splash damage of Colossi or reduce build time, something like that.
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On June 21 2023 02:50 Charoisaur wrote:
Thing is that this overrepresentation of Protoss in lower levels is an EU-only phenomenon. On NA and KR GM ladder as well as lower stages of tournaments the representation is pretty balanced Hm, it seemed to me that protoss dominate at lower level everywhere but KR and South America.
ESL Summer Europe and Asia both had 56% protoss and 44% terran and zerg combined.
Before that at DH 2022 Atlanta:
Europe - 56% protoss, 44% T+Z combined.
NA - 50% protoss, 50% T+Z combined.
China - 63% protoss, 37% T+Z combined.
TW/HK and Oceania both had 3 protoss in top-4.
Open signups - 50% protoss, 50% T+Z combined.
Buff protoss in a way that affects every level - and it might become 60-70% P vs 30-40% T+Z combined, for most non-KR tournaments.
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What about a Dark Shrine upgrade for Stalkers anti-air damage? That wouldn't solve everything, but it would help against Liberators, Medivacs, Broodlords, and, to some extent, Vipers without making Protoss too strong early on.
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Toss doesn't need a simple buff x +%, but a change/mechanic that have a skill curve.
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it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it. There seem to be no balance changes that would fix it without causing inbalance in other areas. If you need to visualize what I'm talking about - close your eyes and think objectively about: mothership, disruptor and shield battery overcharge. Now that you did that, remember for a second that someone at some point thought it was a great idea for Nexus to shoot shit in all different directions, only to then move this ability to A FUCKING PYLON.
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On June 21 2023 19:16 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it. There seem to be no balance changes that would fix it without causing inbalance in other areas. If you need to visualize what I'm talking about - close your eyes and think objectively about: mothership, disruptor and shield battery overcharge. Now that you did that, remember for a second that someone at some point thought it was a great idea for Nexus to shoot shit in all different directions, only to then move this ability to A FUCKING PYLON.
No you just need to buff them.
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On June 21 2023 19:16 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it.
When was it redesigned to be broken? Because Protoss used to be quite playable.
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On June 21 2023 21:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2023 19:16 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it. When was it redesigned to be broken? Because Protoss used to be quite playable.
Around the time that people who aren't professional game designers started making balance decisions on Blizzard's behalf.
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One of the dumbest Protoss nerfs was to increase cost of immortal and warp prism
It was nerf cause Zergs were crying and couldn’t stop a simple immortal all in. It’s not like strategy was new or anything.
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While this tactic went unscouted, pulled off a reasonable defense and preserved his natural base.
Missing Serral's name here.
However, the real problem for Serral were GuMiho's follow-ups. He underestimated the strength of the continued Hellion-Reaper pressure, which forced him to cancel a too-hasty third base attempt.
I believe it was killed, not cancelled.
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On June 21 2023 23:30 TossHeroes wrote:
One of the dumbest Protoss nerfs was to increase cost of immortal and warp prism
It was nerf cause Zergs were crying and couldn’t stop a simple immortal all in. It’s not like strategy was new or anything.
Agreed 100%, I have said many times that those two nerfs should've been reverted long ago
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Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
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On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote:
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
lol
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On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote:
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Both things can be true at the same time, that the top talent of certain races is indeed stronger, but that the other race is also not having the tools to consistently compete at the top level.
With that being said, reynor definitely didn't prove anything, he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly without switching to zerg when it fits him to give that reading credence.
Still, i think it is not that unlikely that in a scene where noone new challenges people at the top anyway, that the current playerpool which is only shrinking might not be evenly distributed based on "skill". Seems kinda likely even tbh.
But it also seems fairly likely that protoss is indeed not a race which is reliable enough if one just looks at the games and how they play out.
How to untangle any of this? Noone knows.
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I don't know if "he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly" would somehow result in him getting worse at protoss. It just seems really obvious that if Reynor had decided to play toss instead of zerg as a main race years ago he'd clearly have premier tournament wins as protoss. I don't see why that justifies a protoss buff.
And the best or second best toss player in the world won't play offline. Seems strange to complain they don't win tournaments.
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On June 22 2023 04:02 Herringbone wrote:
I don't know if "he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly" would somehow result in him getting worse at protoss. It just seems really obvious that if Reynor had decided to play toss instead of zerg as a main race years ago he'd clearly have premier tournament wins as protoss. I don't see why that justifies a protoss buff.
And the best or second best toss player in the world won't play offline. Seems strange to complain they don't win tournaments.
You need enough of a sample size for starters, but also other players being able to analyze his gameplay and react to it, like they'd do with any other player.
You don't get any meaningful position on how well he'd do as a protoss player from looking at a few games he played (while oftentimes also switching to zerg again after losing).
If he actually made a real effort and played toss as his main race for a prolonged period of time and managed to do a lot better than the current toss players, sure then there would be some credence to the idea outside of the conceptual likelihood of skills not being evenly distributed among top talent in this state of the scene.
Claiming anyone proved anything though is ridiculous.
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On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote:
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Lol winning a series and actually winning a tournament are completely 2 different thing
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On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote:
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
There seems to be a point in this.
It might be the blessing and the bane of protoss, that it's mechanics, it's macro-capability and (comparedly) low micro needs tend to attract the vast majority of potential players. Z and T are maybe more attractive to players that seek the challenging approach to the game.
You need a lot less effort to become a decent player with protoss. That's not the fault of those players obviously. But it would explain the immense number of protoss players in low and mid tier, compared to the relatively few T and Z players on that level.
Playing Z or T means you have to go through a lot more frustrating experience in the first 1000 something games, while playing P feels quite rewarding in that period.
Imho protoss players have no real need to sharpen their microing or strategic skills too much, unless they get to the top niveau of sc2. Players like herO or MaxPax have managed to adapt on this level, but very few other protss do so.
Of course the psychological perspective does fit well with the assumption, that the protoss design has less (micro) potential in the highest level of gameplay, i.e. international top 8 or maybe 16.
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On June 22 2023 04:14 TossHeroes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote:
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Lol winning a series and actually winning a tournament are completely 2 different thing
I'd like to see a toss player play zerg and win a single series against that type of competition.
The point is one of the best players in the world can become a top protoss player as a hobby. If your argument is that Reynor wouldn't win a tournament if he had been a protoss player I will take the other side of that argument.
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EPT
