A controversial ESL Masters Summer tournament came to perhaps the least controversial ending possible in StarCraft II, with Serral dominating the field to win yet another championship. Even if World Champion Oliveira had competed, and even if the new format hadn't been so unfavorable to open bracket players, the Finnish Phenom showed a level of play that suggested he might have won all the same. He went 5-0 in series with a lop-sided 14-3 map score, with two of those losses coming against finals opponent GuMiho.
The victory capped off a fantastic four month comeback stretch following IEM Katowice, where Serral had suffered shock elimination at the hands of RagnaroK in the quarterfinals. Since then, Serral has also won the EPT Europe Regional, carried Basilisk to second place midway through the WTL season with a 18-0 individual record, and put up a ridiculous 54-2 match record in all competitions.
Still, there was much more to the tournament than just Serral's rampage. Similar to DreamHack Atlanta, where Bunny shined nearly as bright as champion herO, runner-up GuMiho almost stole the show from the tournament winner. After a rough first day where he lost to Cure and Dark in the winners' bracket, GuMiho rallied back in the knockout bracket with a massive upset over Maru. He followed that with surprisingly one-sided victories over Cure and Solar in the playoffs, and he briefly took a 2-1 lead against Serral in a spirited grand finals outing. In particular, his game two victory on Ancient Cistern is likely to be remembered as the best game of the tournament, where he pulled back from an enormous economic deficit through sheer force of multi-tasking.
GuMiho wasn't the only player to outperform expectations. Solar, long-considered a player who underperformed in live tournaments, made it all the way to the semifinals before he had to cede the way to GuMiho (a 3-2 over Dark was the highlight of his run). Also, Classic continued to build momentum in 2023, reaching the top 8 and earning the best finish among Protoss players. Unfortunately for Protoss fans, this came with the context of herO getting ignominiously bounced from the tournament in the open bracket, losing to Elazer and Creator.
A recap of ESL Summer wouldn't be complete without mentioning its controversies. The competition was undeniably marred by ESL's inability to obtain visas in time for Chinese players Oliveira and Coffee. Many fans wondered if Oliveira's world championship run was more than just a once-in-a-lifetime miracle—unfortunately, we'll have to wait until August's Gamers8 to know the answer.
The newly changed format to ESL Summer drew some ire as well. While fans pointed to yet another change to an already complicated format, pros criticized how the open bracket players were put at an extreme disadvantage compared to seeded players.
Not all controversy was self-inflicted by ESL—ByuN's wrist issues came to the fore again at DreamHack Summer, with the Shopify Terran even forfeiting an early series against Astrea for that reason. ByuN managed to stay in good enough shape to reach the quarterfinals, but ultimately lost 2-3 to Reynor due to a massive throw in game five. While we can't conclusively say ByuN's wrist issues directly caused the mistake that led to his defeat (ByuN asked for a wrist-related pause in game four), it was still a deflating conclusion to one of ByuN's better offline showings.
Finals Recap
Game One - Royal Blood (Serral win): GuMiho got off to a good start to the series, with his Hellion and Cloaked Banshee harassment putting a dent in Serral's economy as the EU champ looked to go Roach-Ravager-Infestor. That set GuMiho up to apply intense pressure, doggedly denying his opponent from taking a fourth base.
It looked like GuMiho might grind out a slow, economy-based win, but the game flipped almost instantly once Serral got Vipers out on the field. Vipers helped Serral's Lurker-Roach-Ling army take a decisive victory against GuMiho's bio-tank force, all while he initiated backdoor attacks at GuMiho's natural and third. The combination of losing a frontal battle and having his expansions gutted was too severe a blow for GuMiho to withstand and he GG'd out.
Game Two - Ancient Cistern (GuMiho win): The two players built up in relatively conventional fashion (or as conventional as it can be when GuMiho is involved), with GuMiho going for bio while Serral switched to a Ling-Bane comp. The two armies came to a head in the mid-game, and Serral made the pivotal decision to backdoor with a portion of his army while defending back at home. This backdoor didn't pay off compared to the army investment, inviting GuMiho to keep pushing forward with bio, Tanks, and Liberators.
Serral kept committing to backdoor attacks, and these subsequent efforts went a lot better. Despite GuMiho holding the supply advantage initially, Serral fought his way back by barely holding the line at home and systematically undercutting GuMiho's economy. Knowing that defending and trying to rebuild his economy would be pointless, GuMiho decided to use his temporary army advantage to go all-out on offense. This multi-directional barrage found a weakness in Serral's vaunted defenses, and GuMiho was able to pick off the Baneling Nest (which had been placed in a precarious position in his natural wall).
The Baneling Nest kill was absolutely crucial for GuMiho as he was trailing massively in economy. He intensified his multi-prong bio attacks while Serral could make only Queens and Lings, which put the Finnish Phenom on the ropes. Serral did eventually rebuild his Baneling Nest, but GuMiho still found the knockout blow. The frenzied Terran offense found an empty Zerg main, and Marines gunned down the even more critical spawning pool. Unable to make reinforcements, Serral GG'd out with a 43-to-2 worker advantage.
Game Three - Dragon Scales (GuMiho win): GuMiho got cheesy in game three, opening with proxy-Barracks Reapers. While this tactic went unscouted, pulled off a reasonable defense and preserved his natural base.
However, the real problem for Serral were GuMiho's follow-ups. He underestimated the strength of the continued Hellion-Reaper pressure, which forced him to cancel a too-hasty third base attempt.
The killer move behind all this was the TWO Starport Battlecruisers coming up, which Serral seemed largely unaware of despite scouting a single Starport. The first BC combined with Reapers to put a huge dent in Serral's Drone count, and the follow-up BC's and Hellions ended the game.
Game Four - Babylon (Serral win): Game four played out somewhat similarly to game one, with GuMiho playing bio against Serral's Roach-Ravager and getting in some early Drone kills with nimble Hellion use. But, as in game one, being put on the back foot didn't seem to perturb Serral. He simply hung back, absorbed GuMiho's attacks, and waited until he had both Lurker and Viper tech online.
Once Serral had his full Hive force of Hydra-Roach-Lurker-Viper in the field, it was curtains for GuMiho. The Towel Terran was unable to take any sort of even fight, and he was soon forced to surrender.
Game Five - NeoHumanity (Serral win): Offense was on GuMiho's mind in game three, as he opened with a 1/1/1-style strategy to get an early cancel on Serral's third base (at the rich gas third on NeoHumanity). GuMiho didn't stop there, and committed hard to a non-stim Marine-Tank push as a follow-up.
As it turned out, the third base cancel for Serral was just a minor nuisance, as he simply retook the base and proceeded as normal. When the Marine-Tank push came, he had more than enough Roach-Ravager to completely nullify the assault. In fact, he won so handily on defense that he was able to immediately counterattack with deadly force, wringing another GG out of GuMiho in under seven minutes.
Game Six - Altitude (Serral win): Fortune shined upon GuMiho as he won the build order battle with a CC-first against a toothless pool-first, which he soon after followed up with a Hellion run-by that toasted a handful of Serral's drones. However, GuMiho did not go bio from this strong economic position, opting instead for his signature mech composition.
Being ahead on economy is usually a prerequisite and for beating mech as Zerg, and Serral seemed to be in a difficult spot with Roach-Ravager-Infestor against a very wealthy Terran. However, navigating out of difficult positions is a Serral specialty, and he fought off the initial Battlemech—and later Thors—to pull himself back onto decent footing. GuMiho himself remained in a good position, but he made the curious decision to tech further up into Battlecruisers while omitting Ghosts entirely—despite having seen plenty of Infestors on Serral's side.
While we've seen other Infestor-equipped Zergs lose the A-move might of mass Thors, Serral refused to fall victim. Judicious use of Neural Parasite, as well as careful preservation of his Infestors, allowed him to take fantastic trades against the BC-Thor Terran force. Serral also found the breathing room to dispatch troops on runby attacks, eroding GuMiho's economic foundation.
The once mighty mech Terran was slowly whittled down, and eventually reached the position where there were no resources left to remax. In a throwback to game two, GuMiho decided not to reestablish his economy, instead marshaling his forces for a last ditch offensive. However, there would be no reprise of the game two miracle, and Serral closed the series out to claim his second major championship of 2023.
GGs to Serral But ESL has to do better than this. The Format sucked realy hard. The only open breaket Player that even got remotely close to the Playoffs was Lambo. And his run was insane, but still not enough. Also Kelazhur and Has won 1 Single map (combined, not each) but still walked away with 1200$ each.
Also having the World Champion not at your next Event is just so damn bad. I hope they will fix both issues for the next Masters Event in Winter
On June 20 2023 20:12 MJG wrote: Any sad Zealot fan boys? (
Yeah, it continues to be pretty bad to see Protoss just get so destroyed so easily at every level of every tournament. The only wins a Toss can get are if it's cheesy/gimicky, which just isn't sustainable in a tournament.
Protoss needs a buff. I'm not even saying nerf other races. Simply buff Protoss. Enough of the old 1998 and early 2000's "Protoss is IMBA" nonsense that pro's still spout out as if it were true.
It's time for a real, meaningful changeup to Protoss.
HOWEVER, and I'm going to say this as delicately as possible seeing who knows what a proper buff would do for metagame and players...
But I think we simply need new and better players to play Protoss. With all due respect to MaxPax, you won't ever show up for an offline event, so I'm ignoring you in this plea.
But we simply need new blood playing protoss. I get it, herO had a quirky style that won him a GSL last year. But it's been figured out after the initial shock factor. Stats is back, but for as much as I love him, he isn't what Protoss needs. Neither is Zest if he decides to come back after Military service. Showtime is good, but not great. MaxPax is above average for Protoss, but again, his committal to never showing up for an offline event just destroys it for me.
We need new blood to turn the race on it's head, shift the metagame completely, and start bringing actual competition back to the race and tournaments. Because this is embarrassing.
On June 20 2023 20:12 MJG wrote: Any sad Zealot fan boys? (
Yeah, it continues to be pretty bad to see Protoss just get so destroyed so easily at every level of every tournament. The only wins a Toss can get are if it's cheesy/gimicky, which just isn't sustainable in a tournament.
Protoss needs a buff. I'm not even saying nerf other races. Simply buff Protoss. Enough of the old 1998 and early 2000's "Protoss is IMBA" nonsense that pro's still spout out as if it were true.
It's time for a real, meaningful changeup to Protoss.
HOWEVER, and I'm going to say this as delicately as possible seeing who knows what a proper buff would do for metagame and players...
But I think we simply need new and better players to play Protoss. With all due respect to MaxPax, you won't ever show up for an offline event, so I'm ignoring you in this plea.
But we simply need new blood playing protoss. I get it, herO had a quirky style that won him a GSL last year. But it's been figured out after the initial shock factor. Stats is back, but for as much as I love him, he isn't what Protoss needs. Neither is Zest if he decides to come back after Military service. Showtime is good, but not great. MaxPax is above average for Protoss, but again, his committal to never showing up for an offline event just destroys it for me.
We need new blood to turn the race on it's head, shift the metagame completely, and start bringing actual competition back to the race and tournaments. Because this is embarrassing.
Maxpax not playing on any offline event hurts so much Toss chances of lifiting a trophy... But i still think Toss needs a small buff. Like, transfer some energy of Archon's shield to life, so they dont get shitty when terran has 2+ EMP's available...
I think TL gets more visits/views when the Serral victory articles are 3-6 months late. I'll do my part to rectify this by pointing out that Serral is maybe a top 5 all time player with this win behind Nestea, MVP, Rogue, and Stats. Not a bad place to be.
Congrats to Serral for yet another dominant performance - simply on another level! Also happy to be able to watch quality Sc2 in 2023 even with the GSL cuts and the format/invitation issues of this tournament.
As for protoss, we can keep talking about it forever but I personally no longer believe in any meaningful change. The race has basically been trolled by a variety of "balance" teams for 5 years to a level where the success criteria has become a top 8 finish. It seems part of the community like it but objectively everyone should agree that it's just bad for the game.
As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
You improve the late game of Protoss. Only the best P players should survive until the late game against the best Z. Also allow Two pylons to merge together (at a cost or resources) to create a Psionic wall that only Protoss units can pass through. Destroying the wall destroys both pylons. This will help against Zergling backstabs.
On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
Even though I think Protoss needs a buff, I also think Protoss needs new top-tier blood.
However, a buff to protoss might need to come as a specific nerf in some instances.
Example: EMP to shields. It's currently too strong. So have it do half of what it currently does to shields. That way if Toss gets blasted by an EMP, it isn't instantly dead. Maybe even 1/4 amount to shields as Terran spam out EMPs.
Maybe have HT start out with higher energy. Basically minimum of 1 storm is available the second a HT warps in.
What about lower disruption ball radius but allow the disruptor to actually move and get picked up after it shoots off a disruption ball? It's currently the only unit in the game where it's 1 and only attack move is nullified if it moves or gets picked up AND if it dies before it goes off, it's cancelled. No other unit is as shitty as that. For all the mass damage it can potentially do, it just rarely ever does it because it's too easy to snipe it. (Ghosts with nukes are NOT their 1 and only attack, so I'm not considering it).
What about Recall? Maybe allow the units being recalled to still fight until they teleport out of there?
Or maybe make the observer get a cloak upgrade to where it's actually invisible, invisible (i.e. no ripple)?
But small tweaks need to happen. Either directly as a Protoss buff, or indirectly as another race's nerf.
And no, I have no idea what any of the above changes would do. That's for the testers and pro's to decide and then tweak as needed. It may help, it may hurt. I'm not of the skill level to be able to test it for myself.
On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
Even though I think Protoss needs a buff, I also think Protoss needs new top-tier blood.
However, a buff to protoss might need to come as a specific nerf in some instances.
Example: EMP to shields. It's currently too strong. So have it do half of what it currently does to shields. That way if Toss gets blasted by an EMP, it isn't instantly dead. Maybe even 1/4 amount to shields as Terran spam out EMPs.
Maybe have HT start out with higher energy. Basically minimum of 1 storm is available the second a HT warps in.
What about lower disruption ball radius but allow the disruptor to actually move and get picked up after it shoots off a disruption ball? It's currently the only unit in the game where it's 1 and only attack move is nullified if it moves or gets picked up AND if it dies before it goes off, it's cancelled. No other unit is as shitty as that. For all the mass damage it can potentially do, it just rarely ever does it because it's too easy to snipe it. (Ghosts with nukes are NOT their 1 and only attack, so I'm not considering it).
What about Recall? Maybe allow the units being recalled to still fight until they teleport out of there?
Or maybe make the observer get a cloak upgrade to where it's actually invisible, invisible (i.e. no ripple)?
But small tweaks need to happen. Either directly as a Protoss buff, or indirectly as another race's nerf.
And no, I have no idea what any of the above changes would do. That's for the testers and pro's to decide and then tweak as needed. It may help, it may hurt. I'm not of the skill level to be able to test it for myself.
I'd like to see the disruptor to be a little more reaver like with it's attack. Instead of steering the ball, it targets a unit and goes after it more like the Hunter-Seeker Missile. That way it has guaranteed dmg. It should move slow enough that the unity can be moved away. I'd also like to see the disruptor move while the ball is active. (I'm not against it having a toggle mode, or an upgrade so the unit can move while the ball is active.)
On June 20 2023 21:51 BisuDagger wrote: I think TL gets more visits/views when the Serral victory articles are 3-6 months late. I'll do my part to rectify this by pointing out that Serral is maybe a top 5 all time player with this win behind Nestea, MVP, Rogue, and Stats. Not a bad place to be.
In the future, reread this while you're waiting for "Serral wins" article.
Nicely done by Serral. He didn't have the toughest road but I'd say 3-0ing Reynor was a very nice accomplishment, given their history. GJ by Gumi, tho. Always cool to see the super stylized players slap a bit.
On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
Thing is that this overrepresentation of Protoss in lower levels is an EU-only phenomenon. On NA and KR GM ladder as well as lower stages of tournaments the representation is pretty balanced, which makes me think the high EU representation is completely unrelated to balance and just more players happen to play Protoss.
On the other hand Protoss underperformance at the highest level is universal across regions (except NA but you could argue NA has no highest level) which makes me think it's a balance issue
GG Serral, incredible recent months. Ask Harstem: It is not that PvX is imba, it is that all the players of the race “suck”. If only we could have one final tournament that looks balanced for P…
On June 20 2023 22:28 ZeroByte13 wrote: As many said already, the problem with Protoss buff is it needs to affect only the very top level, aka maybe top-5 Protoss players in the world.
Below world's top-15 or top-20 players Protoss are overrepresented, often there're more P players in tournaments before Ro8 than T and Z combined. Give them a buff or two - and it might lead to having 20+ Protoss in Ro32 or something close.
I.e. this buff should not screw up balance for many dozens of low-tier pro and thousands high-rank amateur players just for 2-3 very top Protoss in the world to have a better chance to win.
And how do you make such a buff?
Why not just revert forge buff, disruptor nerf, super battery nerf? Wasn't like protoss was dominating last patch, but could win some premier tournaments.
That would mean the "balance council" admit they were wrong with how they went with the patch. And to be honest, I think Protoss should keep the forge buff AND have the nerf reverted. Hell, they need to further buff the Robo units as well, make Immortal more micro-able, increase splash damage of Colossi or reduce build time, something like that.
On June 21 2023 02:50 Charoisaur wrote: Thing is that this overrepresentation of Protoss in lower levels is an EU-only phenomenon. On NA and KR GM ladder as well as lower stages of tournaments the representation is pretty balanced
Hm, it seemed to me that protoss dominate at lower level everywhere but KR and South America.
ESL Summer Europe and Asia both had 56% protoss and 44% terran and zerg combined.
Before that at DH 2022 Atlanta: Europe - 56% protoss, 44% T+Z combined. NA - 50% protoss, 50% T+Z combined. China - 63% protoss, 37% T+Z combined. TW/HK and Oceania both had 3 protoss in top-4. Open signups - 50% protoss, 50% T+Z combined.
Buff protoss in a way that affects every level - and it might become 60-70% P vs 30-40% T+Z combined, for most non-KR tournaments.
What about a Dark Shrine upgrade for Stalkers anti-air damage? That wouldn't solve everything, but it would help against Liberators, Medivacs, Broodlords, and, to some extent, Vipers without making Protoss too strong early on.
it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it. There seem to be no balance changes that would fix it without causing inbalance in other areas. If you need to visualize what I'm talking about - close your eyes and think objectively about: mothership, disruptor and shield battery overcharge. Now that you did that, remember for a second that someone at some point thought it was a great idea for Nexus to shoot shit in all different directions, only to then move this ability to A FUCKING PYLON.
On June 21 2023 19:16 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: it's been proven over and over again, that to fix protoss, you need to redesign it. There seem to be no balance changes that would fix it without causing inbalance in other areas. If you need to visualize what I'm talking about - close your eyes and think objectively about: mothership, disruptor and shield battery overcharge. Now that you did that, remember for a second that someone at some point thought it was a great idea for Nexus to shoot shit in all different directions, only to then move this ability to A FUCKING PYLON.
While this tactic went unscouted, pulled off a reasonable defense and preserved his natural base.
Missing Serral's name here.
However, the real problem for Serral were GuMiho's follow-ups. He underestimated the strength of the continued Hellion-Reaper pressure, which forced him to cancel a too-hasty third base attempt.
Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Both things can be true at the same time, that the top talent of certain races is indeed stronger, but that the other race is also not having the tools to consistently compete at the top level.
With that being said, reynor definitely didn't prove anything, he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly without switching to zerg when it fits him to give that reading credence.
Still, i think it is not that unlikely that in a scene where noone new challenges people at the top anyway, that the current playerpool which is only shrinking might not be evenly distributed based on "skill". Seems kinda likely even tbh. But it also seems fairly likely that protoss is indeed not a race which is reliable enough if one just looks at the games and how they play out. How to untangle any of this? Noone knows.
I don't know if "he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly" would somehow result in him getting worse at protoss. It just seems really obvious that if Reynor had decided to play toss instead of zerg as a main race years ago he'd clearly have premier tournament wins as protoss. I don't see why that justifies a protoss buff.
And the best or second best toss player in the world won't play offline. Seems strange to complain they don't win tournaments.
On June 22 2023 04:02 Herringbone wrote: I don't know if "he'd have to play protoss a lot more regularly" would somehow result in him getting worse at protoss. It just seems really obvious that if Reynor had decided to play toss instead of zerg as a main race years ago he'd clearly have premier tournament wins as protoss. I don't see why that justifies a protoss buff.
And the best or second best toss player in the world won't play offline. Seems strange to complain they don't win tournaments.
You need enough of a sample size for starters, but also other players being able to analyze his gameplay and react to it, like they'd do with any other player. You don't get any meaningful position on how well he'd do as a protoss player from looking at a few games he played (while oftentimes also switching to zerg again after losing). If he actually made a real effort and played toss as his main race for a prolonged period of time and managed to do a lot better than the current toss players, sure then there would be some credence to the idea outside of the conceptual likelihood of skills not being evenly distributed among top talent in this state of the scene.
Claiming anyone proved anything though is ridiculous.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Lol winning a series and actually winning a tournament are completely 2 different thing
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
There seems to be a point in this. It might be the blessing and the bane of protoss, that it's mechanics, it's macro-capability and (comparedly) low micro needs tend to attract the vast majority of potential players. Z and T are maybe more attractive to players that seek the challenging approach to the game. You need a lot less effort to become a decent player with protoss. That's not the fault of those players obviously. But it would explain the immense number of protoss players in low and mid tier, compared to the relatively few T and Z players on that level. Playing Z or T means you have to go through a lot more frustrating experience in the first 1000 something games, while playing P feels quite rewarding in that period. Imho protoss players have no real need to sharpen their microing or strategic skills too much, unless they get to the top niveau of sc2. Players like herO or MaxPax have managed to adapt on this level, but very few other protss do so.
Of course the psychological perspective does fit well with the assumption, that the protoss design has less (micro) potential in the highest level of gameplay, i.e. international top 8 or maybe 16.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Lol winning a series and actually winning a tournament are completely 2 different thing
I'd like to see a toss player play zerg and win a single series against that type of competition.
The point is one of the best players in the world can become a top protoss player as a hobby. If your argument is that Reynor wouldn't win a tournament if he had been a protoss player I will take the other side of that argument.
Reynor narrowly lost a BO7 to one of the best PvZ players of LotV (and went 3-3 in the protoss games at that). I think the assertion that he could win tournaments as protoss is pretty fair.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
Which is Protoss’ limitation in a nutshell. It’s relatively easy to get to a level you can take out players who are better than you. But if the top, top players can reliably sniff out your tricks it’s an incredibly brittle race.
Case in point Classic just getting utterly dismantled by Serral in this tournament, if the Zerg reads you and is of Serral’s level it’s just fucking brutal.
And like guys like Stats were legit solid solid Brood War A-teamers, an even more mechanically demanding game than SC2. A good chunk of the solid Protoss contingent from Kespa were all at worst promising players good enough to get Proleague games if that avenue wasn’t cut off prematurely.
The idea that these guys just aren’t skillful is preposterous.
There was a brief ray of sunshine when herO exhibited his PvZ style up to taking a GSL but even that style hasn’t actually proven particularly robust once top Zergs adjusted.
PvT isn’t exactly fertile ground either.
Protoss is almost impossible to satisfactorily balance. It’s designed around bandaids. Or alternatively the other races are overtooled to require Protoss needing bandaids.
Either way Protoss usually ends up either strong, with a bunch of all-ins or turtle options that even if you’re hard-countering you still might not stop. See airtoss in LoTV for a period, immortal/sentry and blink allins in other eras.
Or they don’t have go-to strong builds that don’t require much subterfuge and have to rely on continually faking out opponents. Fine on ladder, in top end tournament play the Serrals, Rogues and Darks of this world have consistently demonstrated that they’ll eviscerate you in tournament play as it’s not reliable.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
It was a while ago, and I don't remember all his protoss tournament series (over months he played quite a few, of... varying quality), but I do not agree with the second bit. As best I remember he won by just being clearly better at making, splitting and using armies. He did more eco-cheese than I expect you could get away with long term, but in part because he was just really good once he had 4 bases mining and boatload of gateways.
For example, the game 1 here vs Dark:
As an aside: that's a solid 2 hours of series, in part because Reynor was not trying to dodge macro games.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
Which is Protoss’ limitation in a nutshell. It’s relatively easy to get to a level you can take out players who are better than you. But if the top, top players can reliably sniff out your tricks it’s an incredibly brittle race.
Case in point Classic just getting utterly dismantled by Serral in this tournament, if the Zerg reads you and is of Serral’s level it’s just fucking brutal.
And like guys like Stats were legit solid solid Brood War A-teamers, an even more mechanically demanding game than SC2. A good chunk of the solid Protoss contingent from Kespa were all at worst promising players good enough to get Proleague games if that avenue wasn’t cut off prematurely.
The idea that these guys just aren’t skillful is preposterous.
There was a brief ray of sunshine when herO exhibited his PvZ style up to taking a GSL but even that style hasn’t actually proven particularly robust once top Zergs adjusted.
PvT isn’t exactly fertile ground either.
Protoss is almost impossible to satisfactorily balance. It’s designed around bandaids. Or alternatively the other races are overtooled to require Protoss needing bandaids.
Either way Protoss usually ends up either strong, with a bunch of all-ins or turtle options that even if you’re hard-countering you still might not stop. See airtoss in LoTV for a period, immortal/sentry and blink allins in other eras.
Or they don’t have go-to strong builds that don’t require much subterfuge and have to rely on continually faking out opponents. Fine on ladder, in top end tournament play the Serrals, Rogues and Darks of this world have consistently demonstrated that they’ll eviscerate you in tournament play as it’s not reliable.
I feel like Stats proves my point. He absolutely WAS a top level player that was as skillful as the top players. But he's not at that level since his two year break. I don't know enough about him to know the reason.
Serral and Classic are not the same level of player. The result of Serral dismantling Classic shouldn't be to buff protoss.
That maxpax doesn't play offline and Stats, Trap, Zest not seriously participating or are retired, yeah, you can say the best protoss players in the current tournaments are not as good of sc2 players as the best zerg and terran players.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
Which is Protoss’ limitation in a nutshell. It’s relatively easy to get to a level you can take out players who are better than you. But if the top, top players can reliably sniff out your tricks it’s an incredibly brittle race.
Case in point Classic just getting utterly dismantled by Serral in this tournament, if the Zerg reads you and is of Serral’s level it’s just fucking brutal.
And like guys like Stats were legit solid solid Brood War A-teamers, an even more mechanically demanding game than SC2. A good chunk of the solid Protoss contingent from Kespa were all at worst promising players good enough to get Proleague games if that avenue wasn’t cut off prematurely.
The idea that these guys just aren’t skillful is preposterous.
There was a brief ray of sunshine when herO exhibited his PvZ style up to taking a GSL but even that style hasn’t actually proven particularly robust once top Zergs adjusted.
PvT isn’t exactly fertile ground either.
Protoss is almost impossible to satisfactorily balance. It’s designed around bandaids. Or alternatively the other races are overtooled to require Protoss needing bandaids.
Either way Protoss usually ends up either strong, with a bunch of all-ins or turtle options that even if you’re hard-countering you still might not stop. See airtoss in LoTV for a period, immortal/sentry and blink allins in other eras.
Or they don’t have go-to strong builds that don’t require much subterfuge and have to rely on continually faking out opponents. Fine on ladder, in top end tournament play the Serrals, Rogues and Darks of this world have consistently demonstrated that they’ll eviscerate you in tournament play as it’s not reliable.
I feel like Stats proves my point. He absolutely WAS a top level player that was as skillful as the top players. But he's not at that level since his two year break. I don't know enough about him to know the reason.
Serral and Classic are not the same level of player. The result of Serral dismantling Classic shouldn't be to buff protoss.
That maxpax doesn't play offline and Stats, Trap, Zest not seriously participating or are retired, yeah, you can say the best protoss players in the current tournaments are not as good of sc2 players as the best zerg and terran players.
Even though I agree with that statement, I also believe the Protoss player level isn’t as good because the race hasn’t been as good for about 6 years now. It’s gotta be hard trying to seriously compete for your race when you feel like you are at a disadvantage before the game has even started. I certainly would want to come back from the military with the same effort it no longer seemed fair or worth it.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
Which is Protoss’ limitation in a nutshell. It’s relatively easy to get to a level you can take out players who are better than you. But if the top, top players can reliably sniff out your tricks it’s an incredibly brittle race.
Case in point Classic just getting utterly dismantled by Serral in this tournament, if the Zerg reads you and is of Serral’s level it’s just fucking brutal.
And like guys like Stats were legit solid solid Brood War A-teamers, an even more mechanically demanding game than SC2. A good chunk of the solid Protoss contingent from Kespa were all at worst promising players good enough to get Proleague games if that avenue wasn’t cut off prematurely.
The idea that these guys just aren’t skillful is preposterous.
There was a brief ray of sunshine when herO exhibited his PvZ style up to taking a GSL but even that style hasn’t actually proven particularly robust once top Zergs adjusted.
PvT isn’t exactly fertile ground either.
Protoss is almost impossible to satisfactorily balance. It’s designed around bandaids. Or alternatively the other races are overtooled to require Protoss needing bandaids.
Either way Protoss usually ends up either strong, with a bunch of all-ins or turtle options that even if you’re hard-countering you still might not stop. See airtoss in LoTV for a period, immortal/sentry and blink allins in other eras.
Or they don’t have go-to strong builds that don’t require much subterfuge and have to rely on continually faking out opponents. Fine on ladder, in top end tournament play the Serrals, Rogues and Darks of this world have consistently demonstrated that they’ll eviscerate you in tournament play as it’s not reliable.
I feel like Stats proves my point. He absolutely WAS a top level player that was as skillful as the top players. But he's not at that level since his two year break. I don't know enough about him to know the reason.
Serral and Classic are not the same level of player. The result of Serral dismantling Classic shouldn't be to buff protoss.
That maxpax doesn't play offline and Stats, Trap, Zest not seriously participating or are retired, yeah, you can say the best protoss players in the current tournaments are not as good of sc2 players as the best zerg and terran players.
Classic is a two time starleague champion, has a bunch of top 4's at world championships, and has won multiple other premier events, give him some respect. If you want to say that he should mostly lose to Serral because Serral is a top 3 player of all time I agree, but based on resume Classic should have a fighting chance at least. Top players sometimes stomp each other, but it often goes this way when it's a top Protoss against a top Zerg on a big stage. PvT used to be a little better for Protoss, but that's been a tough matchup for Protoss this patch too.
Ultimately, from 2018-2021 Stats, Zest, Trap were all playing and Protoss won no GSL/world championships. Protoss has been more screwed over by retirements than Z/T, but Protoss struggling is also nothing new.
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
Reynor is an exceptional talent but he took a few notable series and not much else.
And he did this with sharp builds and timings rather than oppressive straight up macro dominance.
Which is Protoss’ limitation in a nutshell. It’s relatively easy to get to a level you can take out players who are better than you. But if the top, top players can reliably sniff out your tricks it’s an incredibly brittle race.
Case in point Classic just getting utterly dismantled by Serral in this tournament, if the Zerg reads you and is of Serral’s level it’s just fucking brutal.
And like guys like Stats were legit solid solid Brood War A-teamers, an even more mechanically demanding game than SC2. A good chunk of the solid Protoss contingent from Kespa were all at worst promising players good enough to get Proleague games if that avenue wasn’t cut off prematurely.
The idea that these guys just aren’t skillful is preposterous.
There was a brief ray of sunshine when herO exhibited his PvZ style up to taking a GSL but even that style hasn’t actually proven particularly robust once top Zergs adjusted.
PvT isn’t exactly fertile ground either.
Protoss is almost impossible to satisfactorily balance. It’s designed around bandaids. Or alternatively the other races are overtooled to require Protoss needing bandaids.
Either way Protoss usually ends up either strong, with a bunch of all-ins or turtle options that even if you’re hard-countering you still might not stop. See airtoss in LoTV for a period, immortal/sentry and blink allins in other eras.
Or they don’t have go-to strong builds that don’t require much subterfuge and have to rely on continually faking out opponents. Fine on ladder, in top end tournament play the Serrals, Rogues and Darks of this world have consistently demonstrated that they’ll eviscerate you in tournament play as it’s not reliable.
I feel like Stats proves my point. He absolutely WAS a top level player that was as skillful as the top players. But he's not at that level since his two year break. I don't know enough about him to know the reason.
Serral and Classic are not the same level of player. The result of Serral dismantling Classic shouldn't be to buff protoss.
That maxpax doesn't play offline and Stats, Trap, Zest not seriously participating or are retired, yeah, you can say the best protoss players in the current tournaments are not as good of sc2 players as the best zerg and terran players.
Even though I agree with that statement, I also believe the Protoss player level isn’t as good because the race hasn’t been as good for about 6 years now. It’s gotta be hard trying to seriously compete for your race when you feel like you are at a disadvantage before the game has even started. I certainly would want to come back from the military with the same effort it no longer seemed fair or worth it.
Exept the newest player to reach top ten status is a protoss...... he just doens't play offline
On June 22 2023 02:45 Herringbone wrote: Didn't Reynor prove that Protoss is not under powered?
I've never heard a reasonable explanation from someone who says Protoss needs a buff on that situation. He played the race casually and became a top 5 protoss in the world winning series' against solar and heromarine.
I would find it shocking if hero or maxpax did the reverse and became a top 5 zerg.
The amount of top level players capable of winning a major tournament is very small. Isn't it just obvious that at that level the best zerg and terran players are simply better sc2 players than the best protoss players?
All data excluding the top 10-15 players in the world clearly supports this.
He didn't prove anything... All he showed is that he can win some series vs top players with Protoss. But that's nothing new, tons of Protoss players can win series vs top players. Winning some series and winning a tournament are completely different things.
On June 22 2023 05:20 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Reynor narrowly lost a BO7 to one of the best PvZ players of LotV (and went 3-3 in the protoss games at that). I think the assertion that he could win tournaments as protoss is pretty fair.
Zoun beat Dark plenty of times but he couldn't win tournaments. Beating a good player once doesn't mean anything
People are a little too dismissive of what Reynor was able to accomplish in a short time with his Protoss, especially against Zerg. With a few months of semi-regular part-time practice, he was able to display PvZ on-par, if not better than a lot of full-time P players. Granted, he's a true mechanical monster, but I honestly can't imagine top Protoss pros playing as Zerg or Terran and taking games off the best Protoss players with a few months of practice. Or at least I haven't seen it in any tournaments so far.
If anything, this speaks both to the problem of Protoss design and also to their overall talent pool gap with Zergs and Terran. Granted, having Serral and Maru respectively skews that a lot.
On June 22 2023 13:08 Glorfindelio wrote: People are a little too dismissive of what Reynor was able to accomplish in a short time with his Protoss, especially against Zerg. With a few months of semi-regular part-time practice, he was able to display PvZ on-par, if not better than a lot of full-time P players. Granted, he's a true mechanical monster, but I honestly can't imagine top Protoss pros playing as Zerg or Terran and taking games off the best Protoss players with a few months of practice. Or at least I haven't seen it in any tournaments so far.
If anything, this speaks both to the problem of Protoss design and also to their overall talent pool gap with Zergs and Terran. Granted, having Serral and Maru respectively skews that a lot.
I'm not dismissive, I think it's an unbelievable achievement, I just don't think it proves anything. Nobody can say if he would've continued improving to the level where he can consistently compete for championships or if he would've plateaued at the level where he can sometimes beat top Z/T players but not really be a consistent contender like all the other Protoss players.
In the end he gave up on trying to offrace with Protoss
On June 22 2023 13:08 Glorfindelio wrote: People are a little too dismissive of what Reynor was able to accomplish in a short time with his Protoss, especially against Zerg. With a few months of semi-regular part-time practice, he was able to display PvZ on-par, if not better than a lot of full-time P players. Granted, he's a true mechanical monster, but I honestly can't imagine top Protoss pros playing as Zerg or Terran and taking games off the best Protoss players with a few months of practice. Or at least I haven't seen it in any tournaments so far.
If anything, this speaks both to the problem of Protoss design and also to their overall talent pool gap with Zergs and Terran. Granted, having Serral and Maru respectively skews that a lot.
What if Reynor became the #1 Protoss in the world but never won a tournament or made it to a finals again? Wouldn’t that prove our point?
The bigger point, in my opinion, is that he stayed Zerg. If Protoss was the easier race to win tournaments with, he probably would have switched. Serral beat him 3:0 this time. Do you think he would have beaten him as Protoss?
On June 22 2023 05:20 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Reynor narrowly lost a BO7 to one of the best PvZ players of LotV (and went 3-3 in the protoss games at that). I think the assertion that he could win tournaments as protoss is pretty fair.
Zoun beat Dark plenty of times but he couldn't win tournaments. Beating a good player once doesn't mean anything
Given that he wasn't main racing, and he won multiple series against high level players, and it's a BO7 finals against Dark, I think it means something.
I do think Protoss struggles at the very top level for some intrinsic reasons, but there's definitely a bit of a talent gap. And whatever issues exist for Protoss only really show up at literal top 5-10 player level. Below that, Protoss is fine, if not a bit too strong / straightforward. We've certainly never seen a Protoss do this kind of thing with Zerg or Terran - and I don't think that's pure coincidence.
If the goal is for protoss to win 1/3 of offline tournaments you better give them the biggest buff anyone has ever seen. Because Serral is going to be whipping protoss players for as long as there is a pro scene.
Protoss doesn't have anyone close to his level. And when he's in top form, which he clearly is right now, good luck to the other zergs and terrans too.
On June 22 2023 19:53 Hildegard wrote: The bigger point, in my opinion, is that he stayed Zerg. If Protoss was the easier race to win tournaments with, he probably would have switched. Serral beat him 3:0 this time. Do you think he would have beaten him as Protoss?
If this was a reasonable opinion, wouldn't by your logic all the protoss players switch to terran or zerg? Strange that protoss is extremely over represented in the number of pro and grand master players.
On June 22 2023 19:53 Hildegard wrote: The bigger point, in my opinion, is that he stayed Zerg. If Protoss was the easier race to win tournaments with, he probably would have switched. Serral beat him 3:0 this time. Do you think he would have beaten him as Protoss?
If this was a reasonable opinion, wouldn't by your logic all the protoss players switch to terran or zerg? Strange that protoss is extremely over represented in the number of pro and grand master players.
No, because Protoss is obviously the easiest race to pick up and reach a high level. The discussion is about whether there is a ceiling for macro Protoss to win games. Showtime had some incredibly close series against Serral and took him to the absolute late game. If you watch these games, they don't look like Serral massively outplayed him. Showtime is underrated, in my opinion, because he plays a style that is simply not as strong as the trickier Protoss way with timing attacks and all-ins. But of course, Serral is an absolute monster, a master of all the play styles Zerg offers.
The latest patch had small buffs for Zerg and Terran, but not for Protoss. The balance problem is that Protoss is too easy on all levels except the very top. The question is if it's possible at this stage of the game, when major overhauls are unlikely, to buff Protoss in a way that doesn't affect ladder. Maybe a combination of nerfs and buffs is necessary.
On June 22 2023 17:50 Agh wrote: This format needs to be axed. Seriously just run a full DE tourney with seeding and be done with it.
The fact that heromarine, elazer, skillous, and lambo only got to lose one series and be eliminated is bogus.
The results for this tournament outside of first and second are pretty meaningless.
So you want them to be able to lose twice to better players? None of that was luck of the draw, they went in, face a player who was better and lost. It is a tournament. Even in double elimination, they'd still run into better players, they'd just have the added benefit of losing twice cuz they're not as good.
On June 22 2023 19:53 Hildegard wrote: The bigger point, in my opinion, is that he stayed Zerg. If Protoss was the easier race to win tournaments with, he probably would have switched. Serral beat him 3:0 this time. Do you think he would have beaten him as Protoss?
If this was a reasonable opinion, wouldn't by your logic all the protoss players switch to terran or zerg? Strange that protoss is extremely over represented in the number of pro and grand master players.
The latest patch had small buffs for Zerg and Terran, but not for Protoss.
The latest patch had nerfs for Protoss. Disruptors and Shield Battery Overcharge were nerfed (as were Interceptors).
On June 22 2023 13:08 Glorfindelio wrote: People are a little too dismissive of what Reynor was able to accomplish in a short time with his Protoss, especially against Zerg. With a few months of semi-regular part-time practice, he was able to display PvZ on-par, if not better than a lot of full-time P players. Granted, he's a true mechanical monster, but I honestly can't imagine top Protoss pros playing as Zerg or Terran and taking games off the best Protoss players with a few months of practice. Or at least I haven't seen it in any tournaments so far.
If anything, this speaks both to the problem of Protoss design and also to their overall talent pool gap with Zergs and Terran. Granted, having Serral and Maru respectively skews that a lot.
What if Reynor became the #1 Protoss in the world but never won a tournament or made it to a finals again? Wouldn’t that prove our point?
I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I do think Reynor proved in small does that everybody is, in a way, correct. Protoss has underlying design flaws that makes their gameplay incredibly difficult to balance at the top, and I don't think there's any doubt that's affected the number of championships their standard-bearers have been able to accumulate. At the same time, it feels like they've lacked a truly transcendent talent in their prime. Stats and Zest are all-timers, but a step below the Maru/Serral/Rogue triumvirate. Trap was a monster, but didn't always play his best when it counted most, though he was a lot more consistent than people give him credit for. SoS has some of the best accomplishments but narrow success in LotV. I still think if Rain had stayed, he would have been the guy, easily.
Reynor being able to take multiple games off top-level pros as P while off-racing crystalizes that for me. I would agree that if Reynor became the #1 Toss and couldn't win-out against a bracket of PvZ and PvT, that'd be hard proof of your point. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get to see that scenario. We did see him win series against lower level pros and push some of the top Zs as Protoss in an incredibly short amount of time, so that's something to me.
Congrats to Serral on adding another title to his already illustrious career. Wow. Sad to have missed out on ESL Masters Summer DreamHack this past weekend.
On June 23 2023 23:58 Vision_ wrote: It s always macro player who wins.
Rogue won 3 world championships and was one of the cheesiest pros out there. His super unorthodox cheesey teammate, sOs, won 2. Byun won a world championship in decent part thanks to his 3 racks reaper play.
No matter the race or era, I don't think this assessment holds.
On June 23 2023 23:58 Vision_ wrote: It s always macro player who wins.
Rogue won 3 world championships and was one of the cheesiest pros out there. His super unorthodox cheesey teammate, sOs, won 2. Byun won a world championship in decent part thanks to his 3 racks reaper play.
No matter the race or era, I don't think this assessment holds.
Rogue had cheese in his locker but I think it’s fair to say being a macro monster definitely was a big factor in his WC wins too.
$o$ I mean he won in HoTS. I’ve long felt Legacy squashing the early/midgame and accelerating the flow fucked his style and strengths more than almost anyone else in the scene.
He was never really a hardcore cheeser Has style, most of his funkiness you’d see in that early game thru midgame transition with the old economy. Do odd stuff that destabilises your opponent in that phase and win by a combination of forcing a type of game you’re directing and more comfortable playing than most of your foes. He’s a little like Gumiho in that sense I suppose
Tech comes very quickly and easily in Legacy, it’s harder to find ways to get around that and exploit a missing piece with the eco changes.
I think it’s broadly fair to say the game has been dominated by macro players for quite a while. I guess it’s to be expected the more things are figured out that defensive macro players gain more and more edges over cheesy ones.
On June 23 2023 23:58 Vision_ wrote: It s always macro player who wins.
Rogue won 3 world championships and was one of the cheesiest pros out there. His super unorthodox cheesey teammate, sOs, won 2. Byun won a world championship in decent part thanks to his 3 racks reaper play.
No matter the race or era, I don't think this assessment holds.
Rogue had cheese in his locker but I think it’s fair to say being a macro monster definitely was a big factor in his WC wins too.
$o$ I mean he won in HoTS. I’ve long felt Legacy squashing the early/midgame and accelerating the flow fucked his style and strengths more than almost anyone else in the scene.
He was never really a hardcore cheeser Has style, most of his funkiness you’d see in that early game thru midgame transition with the old economy. Do odd stuff that destabilises your opponent in that phase and win by a combination of forcing a type of game you’re directing and more comfortable playing than most of your foes. He’s a little like Gumiho in that sense I suppose
Tech comes very quickly and easily in Legacy, it’s harder to find ways to get around that and exploit a missing piece with the eco changes.
I think it’s broadly fair to say the game has been dominated by macro players for quite a while. I guess it’s to be expected the more things are figured out that defensive macro players gain more and more edges over cheesy ones.
I somewhat agree with this overall. But this is a nuanced take with some qualifiers, and is a far cry from `always macro player who wins '.
I think, on the balance, Rogue got a huge amount of his strength from (really excellent, well executed) gambling. Even against players he could beat in macro games comfortably, he still often cheesed. He was the complete package, but full-on cheese was a big enough part of his play that I wouldn't call him `a macro player'. Even his macro was often aggressive, high stakes stuff (like nydus SH play).
No, because Protoss is obviously the easiest race to pick up and reach a high level. The discussion is about whether there is a ceiling for macro Protoss to win games. Showtime had some incredibly close series against Serral and took him to the absolute late game. If you watch these games, they don't look like Serral massively outplayed him. Showtime is underrated, in my opinion, because he plays a style that is simply not as strong as the trickier Protoss way with timing attacks and all-ins. But of course, Serral is an absolute monster, a master of all the play styles Zerg offers.
The latest patch had small buffs for Zerg and Terran, but not for Protoss. The balance problem is that Protoss is too easy on all levels except the very top. The question is if it's possible at this stage of the game, when major overhauls are unlikely, to buff Protoss in a way that doesn't affect ladder. Maybe a combination of nerfs and buffs is necessary.
nerf protoss to make it a lot harder to win on the low to medium level, that would solve a lot of the current problem; then give protoss a bit more bonus for microing units properly, and that should do the rest. Just don't buff the a-moving army of protoss or their already enormous potential for cheap cheese
nerf protoss to make it a lot harder to win on the low to medium level, that would solve a lot of the current problem; then give protoss a bit more bonus for microing units properly, and that should do the rest. Just don't buff the a-moving army of protoss or their already enormous potential for cheap cheese
Basically requires a complete redesign of the race.
None of their finesse units scale very well. herO, Trap at his best, Parting would work magic with things like Phoenixes, Blink Stalkers, Oracles in little midgame skirmishes and whatnot. Warp prism magic, I mean these guys can do that stuff
Phoenixes melt too quickly to do much with them when max approaches vT outside of phoenix/Colossus, and that’s a very a-move friendly comp, and Zerg can just put out too much stuff too early for phoenixes to be too useful. Stalkers you can get work done but it requires a commitment to going very stalker heavy, and over the course of the game their lack of DPS and actual speed sees them drop off.
And so on and so forth. You need to ball up and you need your AoE and this gets pretty a-movey
I actually think Protoss has some of the better designed units with a bunch of utility in the game. Phoenixes for one example are a surgeon’s scalpel of a harassment unit that you have to babysit, don’t wipe a mineral line in seconds, and you can lift priority targets in battles, even save your own units with lifts. Pretty neat.
They just all fit into a game where damage to HP isn’t forgiving, game speed is quick and your whole army’s firepower is focused really easily and in quite dense areas.
Hopefully something the Frost Giant guys can learn from. As much as people moan about Protoss their design is clearly influenced by how brutally strong MMM is
Is the developer team for SC:2 still able (and even allowed) to make a complete redesign ? Wouldn't there be a huge controversy no matter what choices the developers made? There is also the issue of players quitting when their play style is removed from the game after a decade.
On June 24 2023 14:43 Hildegard wrote: Is the developer team for SC:2 still able (and even allowed) to make a complete redesign ? Wouldn't there be a huge controversy no matter what choices the developers made? There is also the issue of players quitting when their play style is removed from the game after a decade.
Given the game state and popularity it's close to impossible.
Imagine there would be a complete re-design, everyone is happy with it...and then the next big tournament comes around and there is no protoss in the Ro8 People would go apeshit SO bad...
It won t be so hard to redesign AND rebalance the game. Problem comes from Activision which doesn t care about SC2 and their community.
There s no difficulty to rebalance the relationship between armored/light units (because of the lack of light units), and there s no difficulty to decrease the firepower of all units (decreasing dps => slow fight).
There s no difficulty to add a ground terrain that forbid base heavy buildings (while light defensive buildings could be build upon this type of ground called the battlefield ground and be identified outside platforms => more strategy to control ground, more defensives structures protecting chokes points).
No difficulty to avoid minerals of being always near bases which would ask/mean to players new path strategies for harvesting minerals (while today patterns bases are all similar / workers can for example cross over cliffs )
No difficulty to remove stupid spells like tumors creation with "rapid fire"(cooldowns..), or abduct and parasite bomb of the viper,
and finally give a "deeper" identity to the protoss.
SC2 isn t a strategy game, it s a competitive speed game and a tons of players would like in my opinion a redesign to something clever.
There s no difficulty to have ideas but without "Free-License" of the game, SC2 will die slowly
I think you kinda underestimate how difficult completely rebuilding the game would be Vision. Not that I’m innately against such things but retooling a huge amount, rebalancing and getting player buyin is rather tricky at this stage
On June 24 2023 22:26 WombaT wrote: I think you kinda underestimate how difficult completely rebuilding the game would be Vision. Not that I’m innately against such things but retooling a huge amount, rebalancing and getting player buyin is rather tricky at this stage
Yes it s tricky but i would prefer to fail and give a try, i would prefer some kickstater projects instead of see community pay for prize pools, the game is addictive mostly because of laddering and a pro scene which give entertainement to the niche so would you prefer to thanks the base players or the pro scene ? ... nvm
There s a LAN version for tournament made by Blizzard, if they offer this version of the game, new mods could be created and support their own ladder, today, casual players haven t time to invest to a game in order to be a cannon fooder for hard core gamers, if you want to keep SC2 alive then i don t see any other solution than give free licence to community while it still exists
MOBA are great examples, they are liked because of their updates...
On June 24 2023 22:26 WombaT wrote: I think you kinda underestimate how difficult completely rebuilding the game would be Vision. Not that I’m innately against such things but retooling a huge amount, rebalancing and getting player buyin is rather tricky at this stage
I would wish a deep redesign of economy but i have already gave my opinions a tons of time and maybe i will post one day some picture to illustrate my words (maybe with the map editor, i can create this next sunday a poll to discuss about these ideas)
But like a small example i can say that i m thinking of a balance between stalkers and lurkers. As there are not enought light units number, i would have tought to switch stalkers to light armor units (with some attributes tweaks) and in the same time, adjust damage of lurkers from 20+10 against armored to 17+13 against armored. This simple tweak could help beginners players and could have no big impact at high level. The issue is that lurkers are too good against everything.
I m not for big balances changes, i would prefer to see some core changes(*) increasing the mapmaking diversity. actually the shape of the maps is too restricted to the idea/fact that each base must be next to each other
(*) - reduce workers count. (**) - slow dps in fight - workers can pass over cliffs and harvest minerals to the lowest ground where no heavy structures are allowed (you can only build defensive structures on this field and you must think how you will defend and prioritize the richer mineral fields available on this ground i.e path strategy for harvesting). When they are harvesting far from base, a new building can be built to protect them while they are mining (against harassement, air attacks, etc...)
(**) - Inject Larvas will be tweak due to the reduction in number of workers
On June 24 2023 22:26 WombaT wrote: I think you kinda underestimate how difficult completely rebuilding the game would be Vision. Not that I’m innately against such things but retooling a huge amount, rebalancing and getting player buyin is rather tricky at this stage
I would wish a deep redesign of economy but i have already gave my opinions a tons of time and maybe i will post one day some picture to illustrate my words (maybe with the map editor, i can create this next sunday a poll to discuss about these ideas)
But like a small example i can say that i m thinking of a balance between stalkers and lurkers. As there are not enought light units number, i would have tought to switch stalkers to light armor units (with some attributes tweaks) and in the same time, adjust damage of lurkers from 20+10 against armored to 17+13 against armored. This simple tweak could help beginners players and could have no big impact at high level. The issue is that lurkers are too good against everything.
I m not for big balances changes, i would prefer to see some core changes(*) increasing the mapmaking diversity. actually the shape of the maps is too restricted to the idea/fact that each base must be next to each other
(*) - reduce workers count. (**) - slow dps in fight - workers can pass over cliffs and harvest minerals to the lowest ground where no heavy structures are allowed (you can only build defensive structures on this field and you must think how you will defend and prioritize the richer mineral fields available on this ground i.e path strategy for harvesting). When they are harvesting far from base, a new building can be built to protect them while they are mining (against harassement, air attacks, etc...)
(**) - Inject Larvas will be tweak due to the reduction in number of workers
So now we're trying to make protoss stronger at lower levels and not impact the higher levels?
On June 24 2023 22:26 WombaT wrote: I think you kinda underestimate how difficult completely rebuilding the game would be Vision. Not that I’m innately against such things but retooling a huge amount, rebalancing and getting player buyin is rather tricky at this stage
I would wish a deep redesign of economy but i have already gave my opinions a tons of time and maybe i will post one day some picture to illustrate my words (maybe with the map editor, i can create this next sunday a poll to discuss about these ideas)
But like a small example i can say that i m thinking of a balance between stalkers and lurkers. As there are not enought light units number, i would have tought to switch stalkers to light armor units (with some attributes tweaks) and in the same time, adjust damage of lurkers from 20+10 against armored to 17+13 against armored. This simple tweak could help beginners players and could have no big impact at high level. The issue is that lurkers are too good against everything.
I m not for big balances changes, i would prefer to see some core changes(*) increasing the mapmaking diversity. actually the shape of the maps is too restricted to the idea/fact that each base must be next to each other
(*) - reduce workers count. (**) - slow dps in fight - workers can pass over cliffs and harvest minerals to the lowest ground where no heavy structures are allowed (you can only build defensive structures on this field and you must think how you will defend and prioritize the richer mineral fields available on this ground i.e path strategy for harvesting). When they are harvesting far from base, a new building can be built to protect them while they are mining (against harassement, air attacks, etc...)
(**) - Inject Larvas will be tweak due to the reduction in number of workers
So now we're trying to make protoss stronger at lower levels and not impact the higher levels?
yes, it s stucked. And now i have seen the stormgate last video i feel nothing better than SC2 will be created
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