EPTWill you consider 2023 GSL tournaments to be 'legitimate?'
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TL.net Bot
TL.net137 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1985 Posts
*note not to be confused with the skill of players going down. Skill of players has continued to rise. The competition just wasn't as fierce. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2721 Posts
So in short yes GSL will likely be less competitive but still one of the most competitive premier tournaments of 2023. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1985 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/3GsqWFE.png) for fun here is what chatgpt thinks. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1346 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1985 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9L4K6Mh.png) One could entertain the argument that this is one of the *most* legitimate tournaments, as players will prep as much as they can knowing the stakes, and that it could be their last. | ||
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NeWHoriZonS
57 Posts
It's basically the same top players winning again and again, they just stomp everyone until RO4 until they meet each other. Creator and Ragnarok making it to the final wasn't entirely due to them increasing their skill level let's be honest, and it showed in the finals. This year the same will happen : herO, Maru and Dark (until he retires himself, which should happen very soon) will just compete against each other and the other matches won't actually matter. It could get interesting if HM and Reynor participates as it's rumored, but that's about it. | ||
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JJH777
United States4420 Posts
On February 24 2023 23:46 CicadaSC wrote: One could entertain the argument that this is one of the *most* legitimate tournaments, as players will prep as much as they can knowing the stakes, and that it could be their last. Assuming those are comments from his stream a few hours ago then on that same stream Solar said something along the lines of "getting eliminated from GSL will not impact me much now because the prize is so low." Additionally Ryung "joked" about needing to get a part time job. I don't think 2023 GSL can be considered anywhere near prior years now. The difference between this and prior skill drops like Kespa leaving is that players still had incentive to put in a high amount of effort because prizes were always just as high as ever. Many GSL players are going to have to work due to this news. Others will just lack motivation. This will decrease level of play dramatically especially for the players who typically qualify for GSL but don't make it to global events. | ||
Poopi
France13015 Posts
On February 25 2023 00:15 NeWHoriZonS wrote: To be fair, even the GSL in 2022 weren't very legitimate imo. Not as much as the previous ones at least. It's basically the same top players winning again and again, they just stomp everyone until RO4 until they meet each other. Creator and Ragnarok making it to the final wasn't entirely due to them increasing their skill level let's be honest, and it showed in the finals. This year the same will happen : herO, Maru and Dark (until he retires himself, which should happen very soon) will just compete against each other and the other matches won't actually matter. It could get interesting if HM and Reynor participates as it's rumored, but that's about it. Well it was still by far the highest level tournament outside of international ones though? There were far more top players than in EU, which was the second highest local tournament. Creator and RagnaroK also really improved: top 4 at IEM for RagnaroK and top 12 for Creator. If we compare that to the top DH players: Clem only made top 24, Serral top 8, Reynor top 8, Neeb top 16, Astrea top 24 and Scarlett top 36. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The more pros you lose in a scene (with basically noone new entering), the less competitive it is, obviously. (which isn't to say that the level of play was bad, two different things) It remains to be seen what the current korean pros will do, though looking at the money in the scene i'd expect retirements, military services being done asap, some people switching to the bw scene where there is more money to be made, etc. The korean sc2 scene just isn't attractive for anyone with that kind of money, speculating everything onto that championship at the very end of the season (which also won't have nearly the same amount of prize pool), yeah no way, the makeup of the korean playerbase will change once more drastically i imagine, and even for people who stay in it, this doesn't allow you to go allin either. 2023 gonna be a sad year. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4274 Posts
As Major though? Yes, of course. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
On February 25 2023 01:02 Poopi wrote: Well it was still by far the highest level tournament outside of international ones though? There were far more top players than in EU, which was the second highest local tournament. Creator and RagnaroK also really improved: top 4 at IEM for RagnaroK and top 12 for Creator. If we compare that to the top DH players: Clem only made top 24, Serral top 8, Reynor top 8, Neeb top 16, Astrea top 24 and Scarlett top 36. Well, in the foreign scene the situation is the same with Reynor, Serral, Clem winning everything and the rest of the playing field being even weaker than in GSL. Only at international events the player field is at a respectable level with the top players of both regions competing but I'd still say an international tournament today is easier to win than a GSL in 2018 (which was easier to win than a GSL in 2015). | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
We'll see how many players retire or what the quality of the games look like after the first GSL. I think it'll be worth it for the better players to get into the EPT events, but only time will tell. | ||
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QOGQOG
834 Posts
The problem is these changes take away what little incentive there was for lower tier players to try to compete. | ||
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Slydie
1998 Posts
As many have said, this could have ended a long time ago, it is amazing how it kept running despite the Life scandal and mass team collapses. | ||
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
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[Phantom]
Mexico2170 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1985 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
GSL has always had the deepest lineup of players out of all non-World Championship/Katowice tournaments, but even in 2019-2022, you could clearly see how the lack of new blood affected the tournament. The fact that a bunch of washed-up players like DRG, Classic, Ryung, and Gumiho could even make it back into GSL should have been a huge red flag. The contenders will hang around, but it'll be interesting to see which of the regular players decide to stick it out. | ||
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Telephone
United States149 Posts
On February 25 2023 16:06 Whatson wrote: The fact that a bunch of washed-up players like DRG, Classic, Ryung, and Gumiho could even make it back into GSL should have been a huge red flag. CALL GUMIHO WASHED UP AGAIN | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18419 Posts
And no, if it's just Maru, herO and a bunch of chumps for them to beat up on, that is not a worthy GSL. Or we'd need to consider WCS Europe as a premier tournament as well. | ||
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
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mark_lenders
74 Posts
It certainly will affect their practice though | ||
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tlnetuser108
83 Posts
You have to at least try to participate in GSL main season if you wanna be considered a GOAT. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Doesn't matter if you win against a few Koreans in Katowice or Blizzcon. You aren't GOAT and never will be if you don't try for GSL. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On February 26 2023 16:00 tlnetuser108 wrote: Yes. Still more legit than Katowice, Blizzcon, WCS Finals, etc. I would say that even in 2023, if a player hasn't even tried to participate in the GSL, they can't be considered GOAT under any circumstances. This applies to KESPA stuff too like Proleague and OSL. For example Neeb can't possibly ever be considered a GOAT contender despite winning the 2016 KESPA cup, or beating a few top Koreans in foreign tournaments. You have to at least try to participate in GSL main season if you wanna be considered a GOAT. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Doesn't matter if you win against a few Koreans in Katowice or Blizzcon. You aren't GOAT and never will be if you don't try for GSL. Sorry that's not the way it is | ||
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knotfun
41 Posts
Will I still watch it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nah. But tbh, this makes perfectly sense. GSL was a great show but in the last few years I have watched it like "whatever" because it went downhill quite a lot with pros retiring, going military and the meta game stagnating. Last good year was 2020. It's been great during the pandemic days. In general, I'm happy Oliveira has won IEM 2023 with a cinderella story. We need different people winning, every surprise is a gift at this point. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
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hwjdts224
13 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3837 Posts
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mintyminmus
Australia127 Posts
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mintyminmus
Australia127 Posts
On February 26 2023 16:00 tlnetuser108 wrote: Yes. Still more legit than Katowice, Blizzcon, WCS Finals, etc. I would say that even in 2023, if a player hasn't even tried to participate in the GSL, they can't be considered GOAT under any circumstances. This applies to KESPA stuff too like Proleague and OSL. For example Neeb can't possibly ever be considered a GOAT contender despite winning the 2016 KESPA cup, or beating a few top Koreans in foreign tournaments. You have to at least try to participate in GSL main season if you wanna be considered a GOAT. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Doesn't matter if you win against a few Koreans in Katowice or Blizzcon. You aren't GOAT and never will be if you don't try for GSL. Sorry bro but no | ||
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moonsjde
48 Posts
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rwala
343 Posts
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Seriously, it's barely worth the effort. You may as well just go work a part-time job somewhere and you'll make way more than you could from the petty prize pool of GSL. I think the biggest problem is that players just won't care about it like they used to. They won't grind games like they used to, they won't practice like they used to. This was already apparent from 2020-22, and it's going to be much more apparent in 23. | ||
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2xNoodle
United States201 Posts
There's something about the previous iterations that required players to show up on LAN to prove themselves and then go through multiple rounds with significant prep time both for and against your favor. Now that there are even fewer rounds to prep through and the possibility of online play causing issues the tournament has lost an identity completely separate from prize pool. I don't think "illegitimate" is the correct term to use and GSL will still offer a long-form tournament format that has merits not found in week/weekend long tournaments, but I still voted "No" because I think it best answers the spirit of the question. GSL will still be a premiere tournament, but I feel it's lost much of its identity that gave credence to the argument that Code S was the pinnacle of the game. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8255 Posts
Koreans have already stopped practicing and don't want to touch the game. Shame but it's time for these guys to retire and find something else to do. They're basically making minimum wage at this point. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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v1p3r52
New Zealand182 Posts
ASL is prob my fav tournament but GSL's days are behind it and the Europeans will carry it now for SC2. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17769 Posts
On March 15 2023 08:47 Riner1212 wrote: i mean for 7,600 dollars for first place doesnt seem that great or motivation to prepare hard... or just play tilll storm gate comes out. What makes you think the prize pools for Stormgate will be good enough to draw in Korean pros who can also play many other lucrative competitive games? I think Morhaime learned his lesson and will allow others to run tourneys on their own and not interfere. That of course also means... no funding. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On March 28 2023 13:40 JimmyJRaynor wrote: What makes you think the prize pools for Stormgate will be good enough to draw in Korean pros who can also play many other lucrative competitive games? I think Morhaime learned his lesson and will allow others to run tourneys on their own and not interfere. That of course also means... no funding. Mike morhaime isnt involved in stormgate | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17769 Posts
On March 28 2023 20:35 BelethielQT wrote: Mike morhaime isnt involved in stormgate Morhaime's company is the publisher. The publisher supplies the money. | ||
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BelethielQT
90 Posts
On March 29 2023 01:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Morhaime's company is the publisher. The publisher supplies the money. According to steam frost giant studios is the publisher and Mike is not Part of frost giant studios | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1346 Posts
On March 29 2023 02:07 BelethielQT wrote: According to steam frost giant studios is the publisher and Mike is not Part of frost giant studios Frostgiant and Dreamhaven apparently have some kind of cooperation going on, though I think it is unclear how exactly that looks. So Mike is a little bit involved, but you are correct, not the publisher | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17769 Posts
Dreamhaven is home to multiple game development studios and a central support team. This includes global operations, publishing, and partnership functions that can also help independent developers build and launch their games. reimagine the studio model by empowering studios to establish independent identities, voices, and cultures Create vibrant worlds that reflect our values Take the chances that most big publishers won't and many smaller studios aren't always able to Dreamhaven has the money. getting back to my original point... it is not obvious that Stormgate will have prize pools that can compete with major esports titles. Zero evidence is presented for this. Therefore, for any esports pro .... "waiting for Stormgate" is a fool's errand. + Show Spoiler + So much moralizing and virtue signaling in Dreamhaven's messaging. It is hilarious. Like.. just make a fun game guys.... spare me the morality sermons. When I want guidance on ethics and morality I'll talk to my local rabbi or read an Ayn Rand novel. It is hard to absorb Dreamhaven's moralizing messages containing basic grammar errors. LOL. | ||
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