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United States1950 Posts
On February 15 2023 18:14 Akio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. Come on man, let's allow some hype-fueled recency bias in the recap thread 
Keep your eyes open for more hype-fueled recency bias soon (It was easy to get hyped about this result. It was 100% more fun to watch Oliveira win than it would have been to see Maru win another tournament with the 4-0 stomping I think a lot of us expected would occur)! And please do so at a public library, on as many computers as possible.
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On February 15 2023 20:07 Glorfindelio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 18:18 Poopi wrote:On February 15 2023 13:18 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 15 2023 09:09 Poopi wrote:On February 15 2023 08:57 Cricketer12 wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira. That's revisionist history right there. Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year. Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it. I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it. But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for. Zerg was already super strong in 2018 and afaik they weren’t significantly nerfed after BlizzCon, so yes the balance was already bad. See, no terran even managed to qualify for playoffs except TY, and then he lost quickly (  IEM Season XIII - Katowice For some added context that year--Maru bombed out of group stages because of his weak TvP at the time, (he actually 2-0ed Dark, who won his group). Innovation was in awful, horrible form and then, yes, TY didn't have a great time in ZvT, whether because of balance, etc. People tend to forget that Maru, Inno and TY were the only terrans that did anything for YEARS (with the blip of Gumiho and his Gumigod mech builds).
Innovation was in such awful, horrible form that he ended Serral's winstreak by outplaying him in macro games and won WESG a few weeks later beating Serral again.
But yeah, I agree that the terran underperformance in that tournament was just a weird coincidence and not really a balance problem
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On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
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United States1950 Posts
On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7QKTQph.png)
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
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On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around. That's all I wanted to say. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, for those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually, are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
And I watched Soo's run at Katowice. And I also watched Soo getting 2nd place, over and over again, at the GSL and other premier tournaments.
And I still think Oliveira's run is more memorable, for the reasons I stated before. But this is my opinion. And my opinion is also shared by many other people, rickzou included.
We can all have our opinions. Rickzou's opinion is pretty widespread, many of us simply think Oliveira's run is more memorable than Soo's run (for me, Soo's run comes in second, after Oliveira's run).
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United States1950 Posts
On February 15 2023 22:26 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around. That's all I wanted to say. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, for those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually, are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close. And I watched Soo's run at Katowice. And I also watched Soo getting 2nd place, over and over again, at the GSL and other premier tournaments. And I still think Oliveira's run is more memorable, for the reasons I stated before. But this is my opinion. And my opinion is also shared by many other people, rickzou included. We can all have our opinions. Rickzou's opinion is pretty widespread, many of us simply think Oliveira's run is more memorable than Soo's run.
And that's the fun of fandom. We can have differing opinions and discuss/debate them. As I said, I'm glad Oliveira won instead of one of the favorites and I'm also glad that my poorly worded inital post actually caused some of that discussion because ultimately there is no objective truth and subjectivity can be delightful.
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I am so excited about what happaned on that night.
Time said he became the world champion even as a normal man, in my opinion he have huge bravery for his career.
I respect his bravery. Now i need this bravery for myself life. I must beyond myself before the most important girl escape from my life.
I am breathless when thought about her.
Thank you time,i am going to finish my missions with the breavery and resolution that learnt from u.
GOOD GAME FOR U, GOOD LUCK FOR ME.
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On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2.
I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
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United States1950 Posts
On February 15 2023 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close. While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either!
One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
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wow soO reaches second place of most memorable IEM runs!
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On February 16 2023 00:34 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close. While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run. I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either! One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard
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Regarding soo and Oliveira, I think there are definitely reasons to find either one more emotionally resonating, such as soo about to enter military service, but I think the thing people are happiest to see is a cinderella run in its simplest form.
When someone who is not on the radar of achieving anything notable at a premier tournament, someone who has never been able to get ranked above #15-20, never done well in GSL or won any major let alone premier tournament, never performed any feat indicative of being able to win a major or premier tourny other than maybe beating Maru in Groups a few years ago, not only makes Top 12 at the world championship but ends up winning the whole thing.
Even if soo was in a slump for a year leading up to the tournament, he was always known to be one of the greatest zergs and players period in SC2 (like #10-15th most accomplished player). Despite the lack of golds, he very easily could have been a 3 time GSL zerg champion next to Nestea, with all his other achievements and silvers placing him above Nestea.
He was known to be able to accomplish top feats such as making 3-4 GSL finals in a row or very close to in a row, and he was perceived to have had the skill to win those tournaments, but kept falling short or unable to clutch it when it mattered.
Despite his slump, the amount of surprise at hearing someone who's made many finals at premier tournies in his career and finally wins a premier tournament, is much less than someone like Oliveira, who not only is a foreigner and doesn't have the advantages of practicing in a KR environment (ping, networking with players to get practice, etc.), but also is not known to many people. I've seen TIME's name here and there while loosely following SC2 over the years, but I've never seen him play or cared to watch his games, and I always perceived him as a foreigner who is good enough to make events but not someone who can ever win anything, let alone beat korean GSL players consistently. To me, and to no offense to anyone, TIME was just a Heromarine, Elazer, or Showtime. Someone who i wouldn't be surprised if they did take games or rarely a match off of Serral/Reynor just because of the sheer amount of times they'd play against each other, but would never perceive them to get past GSL Ro24 or Top 12 at Katowice.
People who follow SC2 very loosely or have not watched much if at all in years, wouldn't really be surprised hearing soo win a premier tourny or world championship after years of trying, but they would be very surprised and interested in hearing a foreigner "TIME" or "Oliveira" winning the world championship.
On February 16 2023 00:34 Argonauta wrote:
wow soO reaches second place of most memorable IEM runs!
LOL this is the takeaway that i can agree with
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On February 15 2023 20:48 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 18:14 Akio wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. Come on man, let's allow some hype-fueled recency bias in the recap thread Keep your eyes open for more hype-fueled recency bias soon (It was easy to get hyped about this result. It was 100% more fun to watch Oliveira win than it would have been to see Maru win another tournament with the 4-0 stomping I think a lot of us expected would occur)! And please do so at a public library, on as many computers as possible.
I think these out of left field runs from players not expected to perform are probably being appreciated by SC2 fans more, maybe somewhat unknowingly, because the pool of realistic contenders has been so cemented for years now. So it's simultaneously a breath of fresh air and hope for a future in the scene when a 22-year-old guy surprises everyone by winning it all.
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On February 16 2023 00:44 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2023 00:34 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close. While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run. I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either! One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions. Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard
To Miz's defense, soO have to go to the military, he had no choice. While Oliveira still have choice. The context is a bit different.
Even though the counter argument is that soO can come back after the military (and he did), and with the power of hindsight, we have witnessed ex-pro coming back from military and winning premier tier tournament. However at that time (2018/2019), the general consensus is that after time in military, the player will not be able to maintain / return to the skill level required to win championship, i.e., if soO did not win at that time, he never will.
But I will say this, it may be surprising to a lot of us, the "lifetime" of a esport player is actually even shorter than that of the traditional sport (such as football, basketball, tennis etc.). For traditional sport, we see plenty of top tier / world class player playing at top tier tournament at age of 30+ , some even to late 30s. While for esport (not just starcraft2, also other games such as counter strike, league of legend), you seldom see player remain at title contender level once they pass the age of 25. Oliveira even at age of 22, does not have a lot of time at all, in terms of esport career. Although you can counter with example of fighting game where they have plenty of title contender level players at age of 30+.
Edit:
It was about TIME for the real championship contenders to take over.
fixed 
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I don't really feel the need to rate the two runs in comparison to each other, because in my mind they are pretty much exactly on par with each other in terms of the narrative effect. Whilst I knew soO at his best had the capacity to do it, it really seemed at the time that he was nowhere near his best. By comparison, I've thought for a few years that TIME may eventually be a title competitor, yet I also did not by any means imagine that this would be the tournament he'd show it, especially with the gauntlet he had to go through in the brackets.
If I was to draw a distinction between the two runs, which in many regards are remarkably similar, in the case of soO his matches looked very scrappy and frankly unconvincing even in the final matches, so I didn't even dare to hope that he'd actually pull it off, which only made the payoff so much better. Oliveira's play on the other hand was incredibly clean for most of the bracket stage and continued to level up all the way until the end, so in my eyes his chances actually looked better by the time he was in the finals, even if in a vacuum him winning Katowice might have been more surprising than soO doing the same. Yet seeing him keep it up until the end, and so cleanly dispatch Maru, was something very special indeed.
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It's been a few months since I've been watching competitive SC2 but I still lurk here from time to time and when I saw the title I thought Oliviera was either someone's real name or one of the pros switched their name. Pretty blown away by this, will have to watch the VODs!!!
Edit, just saw it was TIME, I'm very good at reading lol
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On February 14 2023 23:31 LittlePox wrote:
When Oliveira was still new to professional starcraft 2, he used to invite Dear to practice with him (by treating Dear some good meals when Dear was in China for some pro-leagues). One day they had planned to practice together, Dear said Maru was inviting him and he decided to practice with Maru instead. Oliveira then asked whether he can OB their game, which Dear agreed. Maru then typed "who is this guy?" and just kicked him out of the game before getting any answer.
If Oliveira had a time machine, he probably wishes to introduce himself to Maru: My name is Li Peinan, and I'll be the champion of IEM 2023 Katowice by defeating you.
Damn what a dick
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On February 15 2023 02:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2023 01:26 ejozl wrote:
I wanted to be edgy and say this tournament isn't legitimate, because of patch and maps. But this win was just too perfect. I don't think either katowice, or cabal can take credit for what happened. Because this happened despite of all the odds being against him. It's kind of like the ForGG "ECCH!" moment, very emotional and from a super underdog winning, but this was just on the grandest of scales that we have and from a lone Chinese player as well.
All hail Oli the normal man! I'm not letting ESL off the hook that easily for their decision to push the patch and the maps out for this tournament when IEM Katowice is supposed to be the global final for the 2022 Starcraft year. That was a stupid decision, and an unfair decision to the players and they got SUPER lucky that a miracle run like Oliveira's (not to mention Serral blanking out in ZvZ) saved the tournament from the doomed narrative that a lot of people expected from it. I'm not even super against the balance patch itself, I just hated the goddamn timing of it, especially when combined the decision to make a gigantic map pool for the tournament which almost always benefits Zerg more than anyone else. So it doesn't seem like a mutually exclusive thing. I can be really happy with TIME's run, and I can still be upset with ESL for their decision making leading into the tournament.
Why are you discounting TIME's win by saying Serral blanked out at ZvZ?
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On February 16 2023 01:47 mounteast0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2023 00:44 Cricketer12 wrote:On February 16 2023 00:34 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 23:36 Charoisaur wrote:On February 15 2023 22:20 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 21:53 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 15 2023 08:46 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote:
Most memorable IEM in SC2 history! Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory. I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history. Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments. On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2. The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it. Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way. TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history. After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs. I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close. While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run. I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either! One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions. Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard To Miz's defense, soO have to go to the military, he had no choice. While Oliveira still have choice. The context is a bit different. Even though the counter argument is that soO can come back after the military (and he did), and with the power of hindsight, we have witnessed ex-pro coming back from military and winning premier tier tournament. However at that time (2018/2019), the general consensus is that after time in military, the player will not be able to maintain / return to the skill level required to win championship, i.e., if soO did not win at that time, he never will. But I will say this, it may be surprising to a lot of us, the "lifetime" of a esport player is actually even shorter than that of the traditional sport (such as football, basketball, tennis etc.). For traditional sport, we see plenty of top tier / world class player playing at top tier tournament at age of 30+ , some even to late 30s. While for esport (not just starcraft2, also other games such as counter strike, league of legend), you seldom see player remain at title contender level once they pass the age of 25. Oliveira even at age of 22, does not have a lot of time at all, in terms of esport career. Although you can counter with example of fighting game where they have plenty of title contender level players at age of 30+. Edit: It was about TIME for the real championship contenders to take over. fixed
I honestly think we might see a few World Class players from now on. Because now there will be players who grew up playing those games. Before, there wasnt. Who is 33-40 nowadays didnt see competitive play in SCII, LOL and CSGO, when they were <10 yo, for example. And thats why we see Oliveira, Marus, Serrals and Reynors now. Cus they grew up playingthose games. If you take any given person who started playing football or any other sports from their adolescent years, that person surely wont be able to become a professional standout. Only those who started in their infancy. And thats what we need in esports to see someone still sharp at 30+, someone whos been playing and honing theirs skills for almost 30 years.
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EPT
