Call it a miracle, a fairy tale, a moment of blissful insanity—the ending to IEM Katowice 2023 was all of those things and more.
Oliveira, a player who had never reached the finals of a major tournament in his career, bested a hall of fame gauntlet of Reynor, herO, and Maru to become the new World Champion. It was unquestionably the greatest underdog run in the thirteen-year history of competitive StarCraft II, and ranks among the most unlikely victories in all of esports as well.
The outlook for Oliveira—formerly known as TIME—was less than cheery as he headed into IEM Katowice. Various metrics saw him as a top 15-20 player in the world—solidly 'mid-tier.' Aligulac.com rated him #15 in the world, TL.net's IEM power rank had him at #21, and the official EPT standings placed him at #21 as well. It was especially concerning that his last outing on the international stage had been extremely disappointing, as he was eliminated from DreamHack: Atlanta in the top 40 with a dismal 0-6 map record.
However, thanks to his own improved play and a few strokes of luck, Oliveira managed to advance from his round-of-24 group at IEM Katowice. Caught in a four way tie with Neeb, Cure, and Clem at 2 wins and 3 losses, he barely nosed ahead of them by the difference of a single map. When Oliveira capitalized on that opportunity by taking a convincing 3-1 over HeroMarine in RO12 of the playoffs, it was already a huge success. It was easily the best result of his career, and the highest position a Chinese player had ever earned at a world championship-tier event.
Thus, it wasn't all that disappointing when Oliveira went down 0-2 to elite Zerg Reynor in the following round of the playoffs. After all, he had already blown past realistic expectations and delivered a charming underdog story. It was about time for the real championship contenders to take over.
Instead, that quaint underdog tale was revealed to have a final act twist for the ages. Teetering on the brink of elimination, Oliveira fought his way back from the 0-2 to deficit to pull off a 3-2 reverse sweep against the former 2021 World Champion. Game four on Gresvan stood out in particular, embodying Oliveira's perseverance and refusal to die. He resolutely stood his ground against endless waves of Zerg units intent on ending his world championship dream, before he finally turned the tide to take a 27-minute victory.
It would be a journey of mountains beyond mountains for Oliveira, as his semifinal opponent was yet another top title contender in herO. But somehow, the match turned out to be less nerve-wracking than the last. herO dropped game one on the back of a defensive lapse, and he never fully recovered from the blow. He couldn't get either offensive or defensive strategies to work against Oliveira, and he surrendered the 1-3 defeat with a look of utter consternation on his face.
In fitting fashion for a storybook run, IEM Katowice presented Oliveira with a truly terrifying final boss. Maru had reigned for over two years as the undisputed king of TvT, dominating match-up in a way that would have provoked balance patches had it not been a mirror. Not only that, but the Terran legend had said he was in his best shape ever at Katowice, and he had proved it by essentially toying with RagnaroK in the previous round. A world championship was the only thing missing on Maru's resume, and it seemed like he was destined to fill that void at last.
Unfortunately for Maru, it was also Oliveira's destiny to complete the greatest, least comprehensible, and most mind-blowing run in StarCraft II history. In the most perplexing aspect of this entire story, the matches actually seemed to get easier as Oliveira's opponents got harder. Game one was the only bout that went as expected, with Maru getting a quick victory through early-game combat. Oliveira took the next four maps in convincing fashion, playing with composure and decisiveness while Maru played with the panicked impatience of someone watching the chance of a lifetime slip away.
The final game on Ancient Cistern encapsulated the series. Maru took a mid-game lead after winning a key Marine-Tank battle, putting himself in position to snowball his way to victory as he had done hundreds of times before in professional matches. But this time around, he tried to force aggression and find holes in the defense where there were none. Oliveira patiently took advantage of his opponent's errors, and executed the game plan that should have been Maru's all along. He slowly tightened his grip over the game until victory was assured. With one final GG from Maru, Oliveira rose from his seat as World Champion.
There's no full, satisfactory explanation to how Oliveira conjured all those upsets, and there probably never will be. We got a few hints from Oliveira's post-match interviews—he talked of 12-hour practice days, and players helping him prepare for specific opponents—but really, who isn't practicing hard and analyzing their opponents when it's a world championship?
Even so, there was one major undercurrent throughout the games. Oliveira's composure never wavered, while his opponents gradually collapsed under pressure. 'Is he really going to win?' seemed to be the question that nagged at them throughout their games, until Oliveira finally answered them with an emphatic 'Damn right I am.'
Oliveira had been emotional throughout his playoff run, clapping his hands and pumping his fist after his victories. That energy carried over once it was time to address the fans as world champion, and he gave a defiant "Look at me now!" to his doubters. He spoke of his crushing failure at DreamHack: Atlanta, and how his father had reassured him that he was still the best player in his heart. Tears fell from his eyes when he addressed the Chinese fans in his native language. "I want to tell all my fans that are watching, nothing is impossible. I won the World Championship, there really isn't anything that's impossible"
He was playing like someone, who had nothing to lose. He allready surpassed all the expectations and just played the game he loves to have fun. Meanwhile all his opponents had the feeling they HAD to win, because they were facing a big underdog and just crumbled under the pressure. Oliveira was just 1000x stronger mentally and picked them apart. It was truely great to watch.
In the last two matches vs herO and maru after Oliveria wins a map, it seems like Oliveria's opponents seem more and more eager to attack and attempt to kill him. When those attacks got nowhere they got further tilted under the pressure while Oliveria plays patiently. I used to see a lot of forced yolo attacks from TIME (before he changed name) when he was the underdog and was looking to end games earlier against "stronger" players. This dynamic reversed in this tournament.
Great writeup as always Wax, thank you! I’m lucky to have witnessed and be a part of this miraculous moment of esports history, where apparently nothing is impossible.
Wow! What a spectacular run by Oliveira! In the playoffs he had to beat Reynor, who is a huge young talent and has always been in form and was the top of their group. Reynor was also the champion of this tournament in 2021. And then to come back from an 0-2 deficit where the second game just came down to 1 baneling! This series could have easily been the finals itself.
Then he had to beat arguably the greatest Protoss of all time in herO, who also has the longevity which many neglect, o and also topped his group. her0 was also a 2022 GSL Champion.
And lastly he had to face who many regard as not only the greatest Terran but overall player in sc2 with the longevity to boot and also topped his group, Maru. Falling one game down getting pressured in game 2, he miraculously came back and won 4 games in a row, beating all these former champions in succession.
Oliveria is officially a feller of titans. And to find out he is also a genuine down to earth humble guy made it even more special. I'm not ashamed to admit as a 37 year old man my eyes were indeed sweating. One of the most emotional and greatest success stories not only in starcraft 2 history, but in esports tournament history.
It does seem like his victories were made easier by some mistakes by his opponents, but for the most part those errors were only really revealed to be such because of how consistently brilliant Oliveira's own decision making was. He was indeed able to play with more patience than he seemed previously capable of, which is impressive enough in itself, considering how easily sheer adrenaline can mess with a player who is having the run of their lifetime. But more than that, when he did attack it was decisive to the extreme and seemingly the right decision every damn time. So it's not just that he filled in all the gaps in his play, but rather he also leveled up the good parts, so that his decision making as a whole was absolutely immaculate throughout.
Deft and DRX becoming World Champions in Worlds 2022 (League of Legends) in November Ash Ketchum becoming a World Champion a week later Messi winning the World Cup a month later and now Oliveira winning IEM Katowice and also becoming a World Champ
Bro these last few months have been so shocking for the biggest gaming, sports, and anime scenes holy shit so many cinderella stories and dreams come true my gosh
On February 14 2023 20:10 dbRic1203 wrote: He was playing like someone, who had nothing to lose. He allready surpassed all the expectations and just played the game he loves to have fun. Meanwhile all his opponents had the feeling they HAD to win, because they were facing a big underdog and just crumbled under the pressure. Oliveira was just 1000x stronger mentally and picked them apart. It was truely great to watch.
80 > 96
decide if he was stronger mentally or had it easier (no pressure) since he was an underdog, you can't have both.
tournament was very nice itself, but oliveira's victory made it really special. can someone sum up chinese audience's reactions? i heard here and there about 5m viewers on the final match as well as "Champion Oliveira" banners in Shanghai
When Oliveira was still new to professional starcraft 2, he used to invite Dear to practice with him (by treating Dear some good meals when Dear was in China for some pro-leagues). One day they had planned to practice together, Dear said Maru was inviting him and he decided to practice with Maru instead. Oliveira then asked whether he can OB their game, which Dear agreed. Maru then typed "who is this guy?" and just kicked him out of the game before getting any answer.
If Oliveira had a time machine, he probably wishes to introduce himself to Maru: My name is Li Peinan, and I'll be the champion of IEM 2023 Katowice by defeating you.
The only explanation for the upset is that Oliveira was ALWAYS this good, he just lacked the confidence. Now that he's got the championship mentality I'm certain he'll continue to do well going forward.
On February 15 2023 00:14 Brutaxilos wrote: The only explanation for the upset is that Oliveira was ALWAYS this good, he just lacked the confidence. Now that he's got the championship mentality I'm certain he'll continue to do well going forward.
He's always had the potential. He's been a player that for four years was capable of taking games off of literally anyone, and on a bad day will blow out 0-4 in a group to inferior players.
What's always struck me about TIMEveira is that he always plays fearlessly. For better or for worse, he plays as though he believes he is as good or better than the opponent he is facing, no matter who that is.
And here at IEM, he just played free and loose. Like he had nothing to lose because he had already gotten farther than anyone expected to. While Reynor, herO and Maru all faced pressure to achieve victory either because they had to represent their Starcraft race, win the only trophy missing from their trophy case or just because they are young and nervous, Oliveira just played without any fear.
I believe it was his ability to win the mental and emotional contest that truly mattered the most here, and on the big stage that might matter more than anything.
Everything was just perfect. His play was insane, his mental strength was unreal and his passion for every win was just out of this world. It was really like a sports movie. But sports movies are not real and the big underdog rarely wins. Of course they some times do, and there is a chance. A fools hope i think Gandalf would say.
Oliveira makes me and others believe that i can happen by showing that it DID HAPPEN, if you fight for it with all your passion. His speech about being "normal man" (should be his new ID!) was so touching it actually made me cry.
Serral winning WCS and other moments where huge in SC2. But Oliveira was not only the greatest moment in SC2 history, but one of the best in Esports history, period.
I am a fan for life now. GG WP Oliveira, World Champion!
On February 15 2023 00:14 Brutaxilos wrote: The only explanation for the upset is that Oliveira was ALWAYS this good, he just lacked the confidence. Now that he's got the championship mentality I'm certain he'll continue to do well going forward.
Well two things: 1) most of the time we see Oliveira play it's cross server online with horrible lag, so we see suboptimal play.
2) as a long time Oliveira/TIME fan, he certainly didn't always play like this. I'm talking about decision making: so many times I was surprised he pulled back when the opponent was ready or regrouped when I expected him to push his attack in classic TIME fashion. Also notably he never seemed to push any upgrade advantage timing this tournament as I've seen casters noted in at least two separate games, which I'm not sure was intentional. Even his signature attack while defending an attack this IEM I've not seen the timing this crisp before, which I can only attribute to excellent scouting+"instinct" (aka knowing when attacks tend to come).
On February 14 2023 23:31 LittlePox wrote: When Oliveira was still new to professional starcraft 2, he used to invite Dear to practice with him (by treating Dear some good meals when Dear was in China for some pro-leagues). One day they had planned to practice together, Dear said Maru was inviting him and he decided to practice with Maru instead. Oliveira then asked whether he can OB their game, which Dear agreed. Maru then typed "who is this guy?" and just kicked him out of the game before getting any answer.
If Oliveira had a time machine, he probably wishes to introduce himself to Maru: My name is Li Peinan, and I'll be the champion of IEM 2023 Katowice by defeating you.
Both are largely not true, actually. At least not under the context of popular belief.
I wanted to be edgy and say this tournament isn't legitimate, because of patch and maps. But this win was just too perfect. I don't think either katowice, or cabal can take credit for what happened. Because this happened despite of all the odds being against him. It's kind of like the ForGG "ECCH!" moment, very emotional and from a super underdog winning, but this was just on the grandest of scales that we have and from a lone Chinese player as well.
On February 15 2023 01:26 ejozl wrote: I wanted to be edgy and say this tournament isn't legitimate, because of patch and maps. But this win was just too perfect. I don't think either katowice, or cabal can take credit for what happened. Because this happened despite of all the odds being against him. It's kind of like the ForGG "ECCH!" moment, very emotional and from a super underdog winning, but this was just on the grandest of scales that we have and from a lone Chinese player as well.
All hail Oli the normal man!
I'm not letting ESL off the hook that easily for their decision to push the patch and the maps out for this tournament when IEM Katowice is supposed to be the global final for the 2022 Starcraft year. That was a stupid decision, and an unfair decision to the players and they got SUPER lucky that a miracle run like Oliveira's (not to mention Serral blanking out in ZvZ) saved the tournament from the doomed narrative that a lot of people expected from it.
I'm not even super against the balance patch itself, I just hated the goddamn timing of it, especially when combined the decision to make a gigantic map pool for the tournament which almost always benefits Zerg more than anyone else.
So it doesn't seem like a mutually exclusive thing. I can be really happy with TIME's run, and I can still be upset with ESL for their decision making leading into the tournament.
I agree that even thought the new patch timming and the new maps are kind of suspect,
No one can take credit away from Oliveira win here. He didn't have the ebst group stage, but in the play offs he has the most consistent player in the tournament, and the one who played best. Regardless of balance, maps, favorites, bracket. He beat the best players in the world to get the championship. Nobody expected it or believed in him. And he proed he is a great sc2 player.
Congratulations to Oliveira once again on winning IEM Katowice 2023. Kalaris, RotterdaM and I'm sure other casters were saying it was the most memorable IEM. For me I've only seen 2020-2023, and have to agree. Even when Reynor was up 2-0 vs. him, I had penciled in Riccardo into the grandfinals. Even herO would've put a stop to him, and surely Maru's TvT would have obliterated him. But he defied all of the odds and capped off a wonderful, historic Cinderella run after barely edging out Neeb in the group stages with having an additional map won.
First Chinese Terran player. Someone who claims he's "Normal." Someone who had told him he should retire. Someone who changed his years-long nick after a Brazilian MMA fighter/boxer (?). Someone whose dad told him he loves him every day and supports him. That person is Oliveira!
Definitely felt so emotional when Smix and Oliveira was tearing up.
In the most perplexing aspect of this entire story, the matches actually seemed to get easier as Oliveira's opponents got harder.
What if Rogue was unretired and the final extra boss, would Oliveira just be so on fire that he'd 4-0 him? xD
I'm so happy to have watched this live, this was in many ways the most memorable tournament/finals/winner in SC2.
As for how Oliveira pulled this off? He's no doubt good, if he's ranked #15-20 in the world, so it's not like he's not within striking distance to take games off the top players. So the base skill is there.
I think a lot of it just has to do with playing in the zone and his mentality. He loves SC2 and focused on his passion for that and to give fans as good games to watch as possible even if he loses, rather than being distracted or fearful of losing and what other people may think of him. It's so important to focus on the game itself and not the result. Sometimes you may have practiced and improved, but can still lose to an opponent for various reasons. All you can do is focus on what you practiced and execute that, thinking about the result of win/loss isn't relevant, and you can't let win/loss be the measure of how well you actually played. These are the reasons for his success that he cited as well.
Being the underdog also helps, experiencing this rush of confidence, adrenaline, excitement, passion, etc. I've experienced it a couple times before where i played past my skill and advanced much further in a tournament that people expected, so I feel I can relate as I also reminded myself of the same things Oliveira said. Focusing on your love for the game, wanting to show good games, not caring about losing, focusing on what you practiced, focusing on believing that you CAN actually win but also knowing it's not something you can force and you simply need to execute to the best of your abilities and let the results be wha they will be.
His wholesome mindset also helped to motivate him and instill confidence, because of his beliefs in hard work, that pros are just normal people too, etc. He was passionate and playing not just for himself but to inspire other people, so he had a lot of reason and motivation to perform to his best and fight off fears/anxieties. It's like a mindset that acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you're a top player, there is the fear of losing to someone perceived to be worse than you, the embarrassment, the tilt, the disappointment in yourself, etc. You've also reached very far in tournies before, so you won't have that first time rush of excitement/euphoria/confidence/passion that Oliveira experienced. (This isn't to excuse top players or anything, as there are obviously also mental challenges an underdog has that a top player won't have as much.)
Agreed, his mindset is truly inspirational. Also he just seems like an extremely wholesome dude in general. Before this tournament I knew nothing about him except him being a pretty good terran player.
In the most perplexing aspect of this entire story, the matches actually seemed to get easier as Oliveira's opponents got harder.
What if Rogue was unretired and the final extra boss, would Oliveira just be so on fire that he'd 4-0 him? xD
It would be really funny if Rogue was the hidden final boss and Oliveira beats him since he would've beaten all the GSL Code S champions this year at IEM.
What a wonderful run! Watched the VOD over a few days and so glad I didn't spoil myself. I almost skipped the finals because I didn't want to have to sit though a typical Maru massacre, especially after game 1.
Have to give big kudos to ZG. She slayed in this tournament, and her game 2 hype casting really got me rooting against my own main race, and actually rooting for a Terran! Well done to her but even bigger well done for Time/Oliveria. Such an inspirational story - this could actually go down as a better run than the Soo championship as the most emotional SC2 tournament in history.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
I haven't watched any pro SC2 in about ten years (Jesus I feel old), but y'all have convinced me to watch the matches from this tourney over the next week. I hope I'm not completely lost lol
sorry to everyone，there are some bad news for maru.all the news are wrong."who is this guy"and practice with dear is not the same event.in fact,maru may not know dear had conventions with time.I think it's reasonable not to want others to know what you're training.About “who is this guy”I think he was distracted at that time. So I'm sorry to everyone that there is a stupid man from china spread rumors。As we all know，Even the best places will have some idiot.
This trophy has huge influence among Chinese audiences.
SC has accompanied the youth of many Chinese players, so even though many players have afk due to work, they still pay attention to the game as a viewer. The results of Chinese players has been lackluster in the past 10 years, and the audience was always disappointed in WCS and IEM. The suspension of sc2 updates and server closure are a heavy blow to the Chinese community. It seems that Chinese sc has no future.
Oliveira is almost the rising star of the last generation of young players. All the Chinese fans poured all their attention on him and put him under tremendous pressure. So, it's not just a Cinderella story. We are more aware of Oliveira's difficulty and persistence behind the scenes. He responded to all doubts and denials with the trophy.
Everyone was crazy about it, and to this day I still think it was a dream, everything is so unreal. Oliveira's wonderful game and tenacious will moved me. And his enthusiasm and sincere post-game interview inspired our love for the game and even more our passion for life. He said: "Nothing is impossible, even an ordinary person like me can win the world championship." So touching!
I think the charm of esports lies in uniting people from different regions and languages, making them moved by the same thing, and letting people experience the beauty of life.
Time had beautiful army movements over and over... insane. There was one game vs Hero when Hero is patrolling with phoenix, Time shoots down an observer, knows the position of phoenix, and instantly sends 2 dropships out in the fog of war. Drops in the main of Hero, sends an army to destroy an exposed base, and seals the game. I can't believe he pulled moves like this off over and over. Constantly finding massive counters the his opponents gameplans.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
That's revisionist history right there.
Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year.
Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it.
I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it.
But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
That's revisionist history right there.
Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year.
Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it.
I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it.
But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for.
I think most people can rally behind a story of someone who is not GSL tier winning the world championship, while beating the best player (or tied for best) of each race. And not just close matches but stomping 2 of them 3-1 and 4-1. It's satisfying to watch a kong win a tournament as well, but it's not nearly the same IMO. Soo is already someone who people knew and felt was good enough to win a GSL, it's just that he felt slightly short many times.
It's much more amazing and fantasy-like for someone who was not expected to really get out of groups, who has never won a major let alone premier tournament let alone get in top 4-8, having a hard bracket run and winning the whole thing. Also just cus Oliveira is also a foreigner while soo is a korean progamer.
I think Serral being the first foreigner to win at the caliber of whatever tourny he won was more amazing/memorable than soo's too, but i guess that wasn't an IEM and may not be part of the discussion.
I'd say they were both emotional stories for sure, but Oliveira's is on another tier, where people who have not watched SC in a decade are coming back to hear about this and watch.
On February 15 2023 11:32 loft wrote: Time had beautiful army movements over and over... insane. There was one game vs Hero when Hero is patrolling with phoenix, Time shoots down an observer, knows the position of phoenix, and instantly sends 2 dropships out in the fog of war. Drops in the main of Hero, sends an army to destroy an exposed base, and seals the game. I can't believe he pulled moves like this off over and over. Constantly finding massive counters the his opponents gameplans.
It really is insane how crisp and clean everything was! It's not easy at all pulling off those split second decisions. If any of his moves didn't go quite as planned, it could have ruined the rest of it. So considering how smoothly things were going for him at IEM - it also meant that there were times things didn't go as planned, but he still adapted and reacted so well and so quickly and didn't buckle under pressure.
Also someone else mentioned this before, it really is unseen how good he was at retreating right at the right moment. He did it several times this tournament, where he'd retreat just seconds before the opponent was about to pounce on him and break out. One time he lost a couple tanks and maybe could have retreated a couple seconds earlier, but even in that case it's something very rarely seen even in GSL. He must have just really been in the zone and had a feel for when things would happen based on intuition.
It's even more impressive because of how most underdog players would be too tempted to force a fight if they feel they are close to closing the game out, especially at match point, excited to pop off for beating a top player. For example vs Reynor, in g5 and other times, he may have possibly been able to end the game in an early push if he kept going, but he had the self-control to back up and play the long game. Most people would probably just want to gamble the push fearing that as the game went longer, the better player would climb back and have a higher chance of winning.
I'm a senior high student from China, who didn't witness this historic moment in time due to the academic pressure. I almost leapt to my feet and let out a scream spontaneously in the school library when I first saw the exhilarating news. How much time had witnessed I anticipating that a Chinese player could take the crown in the international games. With waves of enthusiasm and respect seizing my heart, I was encouraged by the persistence and composure that Oliveira had demonstrated in the tough games. I've made up my mind to study harder to get good grades in the college entrance exam for what I always believe is a saying "Hardwork does pay off" just as Oliveira spending 12 hours a day practicing hinself and trying numerous times to defeating opponents during the games. I count myself fortunate indeed to approach such a good game , meet such characteristic players and get acquainted with such charming friends through StarCraft II!
How can you even compare something to this. - highest stakes possible (world championship) - a player who was ranked #21 and never won anything outside of his very weak region - wins vs strongest players of every race
soO run was magical but he was 6 time GSL runner-up, his legacy and status were not comparable at all to Oliveira's. Serral's 2018 WCS win was fantastic but it was a guy who dominated the non-korean scene for entire year at that point.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
That's revisionist history right there.
Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year.
Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it.
I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it.
But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for.
Zerg was already super strong in 2018 and afaik they weren’t significantly nerfed after BlizzCon, so yes the balance was already bad. See, no terran even managed to qualify for playoffs except TY, and then he lost quickly (IEM Season XIII - Katowice
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
That's revisionist history right there.
Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year.
Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it.
I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it.
But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for.
Zerg was already super strong in 2018 and afaik they weren’t significantly nerfed after BlizzCon, so yes the balance was already bad. See, no terran even managed to qualify for playoffs except TY, and then he lost quickly (IEM Season XIII - Katowice
For some added context that year--Maru bombed out of group stages because of his weak TvP at the time, (he actually 2-0ed Dark, who won his group). Innovation was in awful, horrible form and then, yes, TY didn't have a great time in ZvT, whether because of balance, etc. People tend to forget that Maru, Inno and TY were the only terrans that did anything for YEARS (with the blip of Gumiho and his Gumigod mech builds).
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Come on man, let's allow some hype-fueled recency bias in the recap thread
Keep your eyes open for more hype-fueled recency bias soon (It was easy to get hyped about this result. It was 100% more fun to watch Oliveira win than it would have been to see Maru win another tournament with the 4-0 stomping I think a lot of us expected would occur)! And please do so at a public library, on as many computers as possible.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Miz you just mad Oli beat out soO for best IEM cinderella story
Pretty sure Oliveira winning is most memorable than soO winning indeed. Even though soO was not expected to win and beat supposedly superior zergs at the time such as Serral to do so, 2019 was the worst recent year in terms of balance and a 5-6 times GSL finalist winning a WC is not as big of an underdog story as Oliveira.
That's revisionist history right there.
Yea IEM 2019 showed some of the early warning signs of how bad the balance was going to be later in the year, paritcularly with Nydus Worms, but we weren't at critical levels of Zerg dominating everything just yet because it was the first big tournament of the year.
Not only that but soO's run had the entire "he was a kong and now he's a champion" narrative driving it.
I still think Oliveira's run is better due to the fact that China's SC2 is being shut down and he was talking about retirement before winning it.
But I think the two runs are closer than you're giving them credit for.
Zerg was already super strong in 2018 and afaik they weren’t significantly nerfed after BlizzCon, so yes the balance was already bad. See, no terran even managed to qualify for playoffs except TY, and then he lost quickly (IEM Season XIII - Katowice
For some added context that year--Maru bombed out of group stages because of his weak TvP at the time, (he actually 2-0ed Dark, who won his group). Innovation was in awful, horrible form and then, yes, TY didn't have a great time in ZvT, whether because of balance, etc. People tend to forget that Maru, Inno and TY were the only terrans that did anything for YEARS (with the blip of Gumiho and his Gumigod mech builds).
Innovation was in such awful, horrible form that he ended Serral's winstreak by outplaying him in macro games and won WESG a few weeks later beating Serral again. But yeah, I agree that the terran underperformance in that tournament was just a weird coincidence and not really a balance problem
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around. That's all I wanted to say. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, for those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually, are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
And I watched Soo's run at Katowice. And I also watched Soo getting 2nd place, over and over again, at the GSL and other premier tournaments.
And I still think Oliveira's run is more memorable, for the reasons I stated before. But this is my opinion. And my opinion is also shared by many other people, rickzou included.
We can all have our opinions. Rickzou's opinion is pretty widespread, many of us simply think Oliveira's run is more memorable than Soo's run (for me, Soo's run comes in second, after Oliveira's run).
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around. That's all I wanted to say. I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, for those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually, are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
And I watched Soo's run at Katowice. And I also watched Soo getting 2nd place, over and over again, at the GSL and other premier tournaments.
And I still think Oliveira's run is more memorable, for the reasons I stated before. But this is my opinion. And my opinion is also shared by many other people, rickzou included.
We can all have our opinions. Rickzou's opinion is pretty widespread, many of us simply think Oliveira's run is more memorable than Soo's run.
And that's the fun of fandom. We can have differing opinions and discuss/debate them. As I said, I'm glad Oliveira won instead of one of the favorites and I'm also glad that my poorly worded inital post actually caused some of that discussion because ultimately there is no objective truth and subjectivity can be delightful.
I am so excited about what happaned on that night. Time said he became the world champion even as a normal man, in my opinion he have huge bravery for his career. I respect his bravery. Now i need this bravery for myself life. I must beyond myself before the most important girl escape from my life. I am breathless when thought about her. Thank you time,i am going to finish my missions with the breavery and resolution that learnt from u. GOOD GAME FOR U, GOOD LUCK FOR ME.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either!
One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either!
One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard
Regarding soo and Oliveira, I think there are definitely reasons to find either one more emotionally resonating, such as soo about to enter military service, but I think the thing people are happiest to see is a cinderella run in its simplest form. When someone who is not on the radar of achieving anything notable at a premier tournament, someone who has never been able to get ranked above #15-20, never done well in GSL or won any major let alone premier tournament, never performed any feat indicative of being able to win a major or premier tourny other than maybe beating Maru in Groups a few years ago, not only makes Top 12 at the world championship but ends up winning the whole thing.
Even if soo was in a slump for a year leading up to the tournament, he was always known to be one of the greatest zergs and players period in SC2 (like #10-15th most accomplished player). Despite the lack of golds, he very easily could have been a 3 time GSL zerg champion next to Nestea, with all his other achievements and silvers placing him above Nestea. He was known to be able to accomplish top feats such as making 3-4 GSL finals in a row or very close to in a row, and he was perceived to have had the skill to win those tournaments, but kept falling short or unable to clutch it when it mattered.
Despite his slump, the amount of surprise at hearing someone who's made many finals at premier tournies in his career and finally wins a premier tournament, is much less than someone like Oliveira, who not only is a foreigner and doesn't have the advantages of practicing in a KR environment (ping, networking with players to get practice, etc.), but also is not known to many people. I've seen TIME's name here and there while loosely following SC2 over the years, but I've never seen him play or cared to watch his games, and I always perceived him as a foreigner who is good enough to make events but not someone who can ever win anything, let alone beat korean GSL players consistently. To me, and to no offense to anyone, TIME was just a Heromarine, Elazer, or Showtime. Someone who i wouldn't be surprised if they did take games or rarely a match off of Serral/Reynor just because of the sheer amount of times they'd play against each other, but would never perceive them to get past GSL Ro24 or Top 12 at Katowice.
People who follow SC2 very loosely or have not watched much if at all in years, wouldn't really be surprised hearing soo win a premier tourny or world championship after years of trying, but they would be very surprised and interested in hearing a foreigner "TIME" or "Oliveira" winning the world championship.
On February 16 2023 00:34 Argonauta wrote: wow soO reaches second place of most memorable IEM runs!
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
Come on man, let's allow some hype-fueled recency bias in the recap thread
Keep your eyes open for more hype-fueled recency bias soon (It was easy to get hyped about this result. It was 100% more fun to watch Oliveira win than it would have been to see Maru win another tournament with the 4-0 stomping I think a lot of us expected would occur)! And please do so at a public library, on as many computers as possible.
I think these out of left field runs from players not expected to perform are probably being appreciated by SC2 fans more, maybe somewhat unknowingly, because the pool of realistic contenders has been so cemented for years now. So it's simultaneously a breath of fresh air and hope for a future in the scene when a 22-year-old guy surprises everyone by winning it all.
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either!
One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard
To Miz's defense, soO have to go to the military, he had no choice. While Oliveira still have choice. The context is a bit different.
Even though the counter argument is that soO can come back after the military (and he did), and with the power of hindsight, we have witnessed ex-pro coming back from military and winning premier tier tournament. However at that time (2018/2019), the general consensus is that after time in military, the player will not be able to maintain / return to the skill level required to win championship, i.e., if soO did not win at that time, he never will.
But I will say this, it may be surprising to a lot of us, the "lifetime" of a esport player is actually even shorter than that of the traditional sport (such as football, basketball, tennis etc.). For traditional sport, we see plenty of top tier / world class player playing at top tier tournament at age of 30+ , some even to late 30s. While for esport (not just starcraft2, also other games such as counter strike, league of legend), you seldom see player remain at title contender level once they pass the age of 25. Oliveira even at age of 22, does not have a lot of time at all, in terms of esport career. Although you can counter with example of fighting game where they have plenty of title contender level players at age of 30+.
Edit:
It was about TIME for the real championship contenders to take over.
I don't really feel the need to rate the two runs in comparison to each other, because in my mind they are pretty much exactly on par with each other in terms of the narrative effect. Whilst I knew soO at his best had the capacity to do it, it really seemed at the time that he was nowhere near his best. By comparison, I've thought for a few years that TIME may eventually be a title competitor, yet I also did not by any means imagine that this would be the tournament he'd show it, especially with the gauntlet he had to go through in the brackets.
If I was to draw a distinction between the two runs, which in many regards are remarkably similar, in the case of soO his matches looked very scrappy and frankly unconvincing even in the final matches, so I didn't even dare to hope that he'd actually pull it off, which only made the payoff so much better. Oliveira's play on the other hand was incredibly clean for most of the bracket stage and continued to level up all the way until the end, so in my eyes his chances actually looked better by the time he was in the finals, even if in a vacuum him winning Katowice might have been more surprising than soO doing the same. Yet seeing him keep it up until the end, and so cleanly dispatch Maru, was something very special indeed.
It's been a few months since I've been watching competitive SC2 but I still lurk here from time to time and when I saw the title I thought Oliviera was either someone's real name or one of the pros switched their name. Pretty blown away by this, will have to watch the VODs!!!
Edit, just saw it was TIME, I'm very good at reading lol
On February 14 2023 23:31 LittlePox wrote: When Oliveira was still new to professional starcraft 2, he used to invite Dear to practice with him (by treating Dear some good meals when Dear was in China for some pro-leagues). One day they had planned to practice together, Dear said Maru was inviting him and he decided to practice with Maru instead. Oliveira then asked whether he can OB their game, which Dear agreed. Maru then typed "who is this guy?" and just kicked him out of the game before getting any answer.
If Oliveira had a time machine, he probably wishes to introduce himself to Maru: My name is Li Peinan, and I'll be the champion of IEM 2023 Katowice by defeating you.
On February 15 2023 01:26 ejozl wrote: I wanted to be edgy and say this tournament isn't legitimate, because of patch and maps. But this win was just too perfect. I don't think either katowice, or cabal can take credit for what happened. Because this happened despite of all the odds being against him. It's kind of like the ForGG "ECCH!" moment, very emotional and from a super underdog winning, but this was just on the grandest of scales that we have and from a lone Chinese player as well.
All hail Oli the normal man!
I'm not letting ESL off the hook that easily for their decision to push the patch and the maps out for this tournament when IEM Katowice is supposed to be the global final for the 2022 Starcraft year. That was a stupid decision, and an unfair decision to the players and they got SUPER lucky that a miracle run like Oliveira's (not to mention Serral blanking out in ZvZ) saved the tournament from the doomed narrative that a lot of people expected from it.
I'm not even super against the balance patch itself, I just hated the goddamn timing of it, especially when combined the decision to make a gigantic map pool for the tournament which almost always benefits Zerg more than anyone else.
So it doesn't seem like a mutually exclusive thing. I can be really happy with TIME's run, and I can still be upset with ESL for their decision making leading into the tournament.
Why are you discounting TIME's win by saying Serral blanked out at ZvZ?
On February 15 2023 06:54 rickzou wrote: Most memorable IEM in SC2 history!
Either you're from China, you started playing StarCraft II yesterday, or you have a terrible memory.
I have been watching SC2 since the first GSL tournament in 2010 with Boxer, Fruitdealer, MKP, etc. Heck, I was watching SC2 tournaments before the first GSL tournament. And I agree with rickzou, that this is the most memorable SC2 run in history.
Second most memorable for me would be Soo's run at Katowice. The main difference between Oliveria's run and Soo's run though is that Soo making the finals of Katowice was not a surprise. Soo had made the finals of GSL and other premier tournaments before he won Katowice. What was surprising was Soo finally winning Katowice, because Soo kept losing in the finals of premier tournaments.
On paper, Soo was always capable of making the finals, it was just his problem of winning it. On paper, nobody expected Oliveira to make the finals of Katowice, nevermind winning it. Oliveira is truly the Cinderalla story of SC2.
The next closest Cinderalla story would be Has's run to the finals at WCS. But sadly, Has failed in the finals. Oliveira's run is even more maginifcent than Has's run, not only because Oliveira won the finals, but Katowice was much more prestigious and the prize pool was much higher than the WCS where Has made the finals but could not win it.
Regardless, this is my opinion and that was rickzou's opinion. But for a lot of people, the run by Oliveira is the most memorable run for them in SC2 and there are a lot of us that think this way.
TIME winning was the best possible end to this event once we got our final 8 players as anyone else winning would have just been another "this great player furthers their case in the GOAT argument" discussion. TIME winning is a lot more fun to write and talk about. Regarding soO winning, the problem is everyone has already forgotten the context surrounding the event. And if there's anything I'm protective of, as someone who has written as much about StarCraft II as anyone in the past half decade, it's history.
After soO lost to Stats in the season 1 semifinals he fell off hard. His results the rest of the year were noteworthy because of how bad they were. He wasn't even in the discussion when it came to best players in the World when IEM rolled around and his win was just about as unlikely as TIME's given his form and the fact that Maru was coming off 3 straight Code S wins and Serral had won Blizzcon in dominant fashion a few months earlier.
I'm glad TIME won because, as I said, it's a better story than herO/Dark/Serral/Reynor/Maru adding another trophy to their collection, and it was a lot more fun to write about. But, those who look back and think of soO as this 6 time Code S finalist who won an event due to the fact that he was so good he had to win eventually are forgetting that he wasn't even a mediocre player for the 12 months leading up to Katowice. He was downright bad. Come Katowice, he went 2-3 in groups just like TIME. He got into the elimination portion on tiebreakers just like TIME (they even had the same net map score in the groups). Then soO beat the best Zerg in the world (Serral) and the best Protoss in the World (Stats), just like TIME did. If anything the two players had remarkably similar experiences during their respective championship runs.
I'm not taking anything away from TIME. This was the most fun I've had watching and writing about an event in a very long time time. I'm simply flummoxed by the revisionist history that seems to have cropped up in the wake of the event coming to a close.
While this is true, there's the saying "form is temporary, class is permanent" which fits very well to sc2. I'm never THAT surprised when a championship tier player in bad form has a good run once again, which is why I also think Oliveira's run is still a lot more surprising and unexpected than soO's run.
I agree that Oliveira winning is more surprising and unexpected than soO, but it's not as if anyone was favoring either of them to beat the players they did along the way. Both were unlikely champions and which story one thinks is more emotionally affective largely comes down to which narrative one finds to be more compelling (curiously both narratives are the same-long suffering player finally gets the championship that validates their career). I would contend that soO's career was littered with a lot more impactful losses which made the victory at the end all the sweeter, but you really can't go wrong with either!
One final note regarding why soO winning resonated with me more personally (ignoring our conversations over the years). Oliveira is only 22 years old. He's one of the youngest people playing StarCraft II at the moment so as long as there are tournaments he'll have more opportunities to win. soO was staring down military service as early as 2018 (south korea only issued him a 1 year passport when he went to poland the year before he won because of this) and Katowice was one of his final chances to actually win something before he had to go serve. But, hey, it's all splitting hairs. Both are great stories and both were deserved champions.
Your final note disregards Oli planningon retiring after this. China scene was dying thanks to blizzard
To Miz's defense, soO have to go to the military, he had no choice. While Oliveira still have choice. The context is a bit different.
Even though the counter argument is that soO can come back after the military (and he did), and with the power of hindsight, we have witnessed ex-pro coming back from military and winning premier tier tournament. However at that time (2018/2019), the general consensus is that after time in military, the player will not be able to maintain / return to the skill level required to win championship, i.e., if soO did not win at that time, he never will.
But I will say this, it may be surprising to a lot of us, the "lifetime" of a esport player is actually even shorter than that of the traditional sport (such as football, basketball, tennis etc.). For traditional sport, we see plenty of top tier / world class player playing at top tier tournament at age of 30+ , some even to late 30s. While for esport (not just starcraft2, also other games such as counter strike, league of legend), you seldom see player remain at title contender level once they pass the age of 25. Oliveira even at age of 22, does not have a lot of time at all, in terms of esport career. Although you can counter with example of fighting game where they have plenty of title contender level players at age of 30+.
Edit:
It was about TIME for the real championship contenders to take over.
fixed
I honestly think we might see a few World Class players from now on. Because now there will be players who grew up playing those games. Before, there wasnt. Who is 33-40 nowadays didnt see competitive play in SCII, LOL and CSGO, when they were <10 yo, for example. And thats why we see Oliveira, Marus, Serrals and Reynors now. Cus they grew up playingthose games. If you take any given person who started playing football or any other sports from their adolescent years, that person surely wont be able to become a professional standout. Only those who started in their infancy. And thats what we need in esports to see someone still sharp at 30+, someone whos been playing and honing theirs skills for almost 30 years.
On February 15 2023 01:26 ejozl wrote: I wanted to be edgy and say this tournament isn't legitimate, because of patch and maps. But this win was just too perfect. I don't think either katowice, or cabal can take credit for what happened. Because this happened despite of all the odds being against him. It's kind of like the ForGG "ECCH!" moment, very emotional and from a super underdog winning, but this was just on the grandest of scales that we have and from a lone Chinese player as well.
All hail Oli the normal man!
I'm not letting ESL off the hook that easily for their decision to push the patch and the maps out for this tournament when IEM Katowice is supposed to be the global final for the 2022 Starcraft year. That was a stupid decision, and an unfair decision to the players and they got SUPER lucky that a miracle run like Oliveira's (not to mention Serral blanking out in ZvZ) saved the tournament from the doomed narrative that a lot of people expected from it.
I'm not even super against the balance patch itself, I just hated the goddamn timing of it, especially when combined the decision to make a gigantic map pool for the tournament which almost always benefits Zerg more than anyone else.
So it doesn't seem like a mutually exclusive thing. I can be really happy with TIME's run, and I can still be upset with ESL for their decision making leading into the tournament.
Why are you discounting TIME's win by saying Serral blanked out at ZvZ?
Cus thats what we Serrals fans do. No matter what, Serral is the GOAT
On February 14 2023 22:47 AzAlexZ wrote: Deft and DRX becoming World Champions in Worlds 2022 (League of Legends) in November Ash Ketchum becoming a World Champion a week later Messi winning the World Cup a month later and now Oliveira winning IEM Katowice and also becoming a World Champ
Bro these last few months have been so shocking for the biggest gaming, sports, and anime scenes holy shit so many cinderella stories and dreams come true my gosh
Natizens here always reference the championship of Sky as the inspiration to lit up the Warcraft3 scene in China, and wonder if there will be one in sc2. Well, thanks to someone, we won't have a chance to pop onto the local server to celebrate the single best moment of Chinese starcraft.
I wish I had more people IRL to explain this too, when I got into SC2 in 2013 it felt unfathomable that a foreigner could win a tournament, let alone a Chinese player winning the biggest tournament of the season as his first ever
Hello, everyone, I am a Chinese fan. As a Chinese fan, I never thought that Olavira would win the championship. In Oliveira's life, I believe he is also very dreamy. After he returned home, we had a happy celebration for him. We were proud of his winning the championship, which was the most unforgettable moment in China's history. It is ironic and encouraging to get the first place in the world without Chinese servers.
Was able to attend this tournament as my first live event since the pandemic. Had a really great time and loved watching TIME/Oliveira's Cinderella run. I'm hoping the Chinese players and community find some joy with this despite their server going down.
I just watched a bunch of Oliveira's games. His win was not a fluke, but a pattern emerged in various matchups.
1: Open very safely, minimal early harassment and no cheese. 2: Wait for the opponent to throw the first stone and defend like a boss. 3: Strike back ASAP without mercy and end the game before 15 minutes.
It certainly worked this time, but Oliveira I don't feel his opponents did the best job playing against him. ECO cheese would probably have worked much better than trying and failing at early pressure again and again.
On February 23 2023 21:45 Slydie wrote: I just watched a bunch of Oliveira's games. His win was not a fluke, but a pattern emerged in various matchups.
1: Open very safely, minimal early harassment and no cheese. 2: Wait for the opponent to throw the first stone and defend like a boss. 3: Strike back ASAP without mercy and end the game before 15 minutes.
It certainly worked this time, but Oliveira I don't feel his opponents did the best job playing against him. ECO cheese would probably have worked much better than trying and failing at early pressure again and again.
One single cyclone really did work defensive wonders for him in multiple games against both HerO and Maru!
What a great story and well deserved trophy...amazing!
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/ro12bracket_2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Katowice2023/oliveiragroupresult.png)
![[image loading]](https://www.streamscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/biblethump.png)
IEM Season XIII - Katowice![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/7QKTQph.png)
