Hello everyone! After speaking with TIME and KaiZi, it looks like TIME will be unable to acquire a visa in time for TSL 9, and we are looking to replace him for the event. The event was communicated as a two stage competition with an offline portion since the initial announcement in June. In this situation, the player did not properly apply for a visa in time and was unable to travel to TSL.
Similar to our previous ruling on Neeb, we will have HeRoMaRinE and Astrea compete for the final spot, and move Lambo from the Lower bracket to the Upper Bracket in TIME’s place. Rotterdam will be covering it on his stream, scheduled to start at Sunday, Aug 21 1:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
In more positive news, if you happen to live in or near the UK, we’ve had interest from several bars in holding barcraft events for our finals on September 4th! We’re sending them each care packages of Team Liquid, TSL 9, and some other goodies from our partners to hand out to attendees! Those that attend can expect to have an awesome time meeting other SC2 fans, and we’ll be looking to get some crowd shots as well. Here are the locations we're planning on officially supporting:
We're also happy to support other locations, given enough notice! If you want to organize a barcraft in your area, please reach out once you have a venue and rough guesstimate on headcount.
I thought it was already confirmed that Time would be allowed to play online if he couldn't make it? I distinctly remember that being said somewhere and I thought it was an official source.
Also for Lambo in the upper bracket wouldn't it be more fair to have a playoff between Lambo/Gumiho/herO since they all lost in the same round (would include Neeb as well but he already dropped out)? Giving him a bye because his opponent got DQ'd is odd.
On August 18 2022 04:45 JJH777 wrote: Also for Lambo in the upper bracket wouldn't it be more fair to have a playoff between Lambo/Gumiho/herO since they all lost in the same round (would include Neeb as well but he already dropped out)? Giving him a bye because his opponent got DQ'd is odd.
Agrred. It would be the exact same approach as for Neeb's replacement in that case. Not doing so is kinda inconsistent.
On August 06 2022 02:46 Elentos wrote: So will TIME play top 12 online or be forced to forfeit? Or does TSL cover flight costs that exceed the prize money for 2nd place?
We're working with TIME and KaiZi Gaming to go through all the proper channels so he can make it to Utrecht, with Team Liquid covering the travel expenses. If it's unfortunately not possible, we will allow TIME to play online.
I guess if it's been determined that it's Times fault rather than due to logistics or expenses it makes sense. Still disappointing. Out of the upper bracket players he was the one I was most interested in seeing how they did in the offline portion.
I know it's a lot of work to organize events and I'm thankful for the TSL crew to keep us updated, but at the same time, I feel like this is an issue that really could have been address earlier.
On August 18 2022 08:39 Vindicare605 wrote: And Aligulac will continue to be biased against him for reasons like this. He was far and away the best non-Korean Terran at this tournament.
As much as I think Clem is overrated, I still don't think TIME is better; that said, I think he might be the second best non-Korean Terran, maybe roughly equal to HM
On August 18 2022 08:39 Vindicare605 wrote: And Aligulac will continue to be biased against him for reasons like this. He was far and away the best non-Korean Terran at this tournament.
As much as I think Clem is overrated, I still don't think TIME is better; that said, I think he might be the second best non-Korean Terran, maybe roughly equal to HM
HM isn't playing very well recently and Clem also seems to be going through a rough patch, so TIME is arguably the best non-Korean Terran atm. Sadly we probably won't know for sure unless TIME starts getting to travel to more international events.
On August 18 2022 04:45 JJH777 wrote: Also for Lambo in the upper bracket wouldn't it be more fair to have a playoff between Lambo/Gumiho/herO since they all lost in the same round (would include Neeb as well but he already dropped out)? Giving him a bye because his opponent got DQ'd is odd.
Agrred. It would be the exact same approach as for Neeb's replacement in that case. Not doing so is kinda inconsistent.
If I am a conspiracy theorist, I would say that they want to make sure herO and Maru taking each other out in the Lower Bracket, and EU has all 4 slots in the upper bracket showing their "might" against the woeful KR.
However, the actual situation is that, you would have to get 2 play-in round, one for the upper and one for the lower, which is an hassle for them. But then again, what make Lambo having priority over herO and Gumiho other than he play Time in the previous round is beyond me. I thought in case like this, EPT point should be a good indicator.
We cannot allow a player to play online when the reason the player cannot attend is that they didn't gather the proper documents for their visa.
We understand it is difficult to travel in certain countries and we are willing to meet players halfway when we can. However, it is a player's personal responsibility to gather the proper documents to travel, to check their school schedule before attending, or to confirm their military obligations before participating in TSL.
I really disagree with the choice of replacing Time with Lambo so easily.
If you want to punish time for not being there you could always give the opponent the server choice.
If you want all people to be there in person why should lambo (lost 0-2) take precedence over hero (lost 1-2) or gumiho (0-2 too)? Organise another round robin between the 3 aforementioned players for the UB slot and a straight bo5 for HM and Astrea for the new LB slot. More StarCraft, more fun.
On August 18 2022 15:10 t5Fab wrote: I really disagree with the choice of replacing Time with Lambo so easily.
If you want to punish time for not being there you could always give the opponent the server choice.
If you want all people to be there in person why should lambo (lost 0-2) take precedence over hero (lost 1-2) or gumiho (0-2 too)? Organise another round robin between the 3 aforementioned players for the UB slot and a straight bo5 for HM and Astrea for the new LB slot. More StarCraft, more fun.
Take a look at Lambo's skin color versus herO's and Gumi's. Theres your answer. I bet GSL would pick herO or Gumi over Lambo
The approach they've used doesn't seem fully consistent, but I don't think there is any great conspiracy in it:
They keep the integrity of the upper bracket by giving the spot to Lambo rather than herO or Gumi - they are playing the upper bracket out as if Lambo had beaten Time, but otherwise unchanged. It's very unfortunate that it's happening retrospectively, but it means the upper bracket essentially remains a single elimination tournament and e.g. Serral or Reynor don't have a possibility of facing herO/Gumi for the second time in the upper bracket.
When Neeb drops out from the lower bracket ahead of time (and Lambo is bumped up to the upper bracket) that leaves matches that wouldn't be played. In order to keep a consistent approach with the above, they would have to give byes to Classic and Zoun. However this would mean from an organizer and spectator point of view less total games (including less games at their final, LAN portion of the event) would be played - so I can understand them trying to find a compromise between not disrupting the brackets and making sure the same number of games still happen.
It is still doesn't leave a good feeling in the sense that any of these are (or were) possible: - Lambo wins a single elimination upper bracket with a match losses - Lambo/Solar/Astrea/HeroMarine win a double elimination tournament with two match losses - Classic plays Astrea twice in a row - Maru eliminates Solar twice in one tournament
But there isn't really a way to deal with players dropping out past round 1 of a tournament that doesn't suck in some regards, and while this isn't necessarily the way I'd do things, it still feels reasonable enough.
If the only thing that mattered was integrity of the tournament, we would probably just have a massive round robin not a bracket anyway...
Too bad there is no barcraft in France. I believe the former OG casters will start something in September to cast together now that o'gaming.sc2 is done, but I don't think they can organize a viewing party yet.
On August 18 2022 18:08 nostrasbeefs wrote: Why is Lambo in the upper bracket.. Hero had to play Reynor and now Maru and Lambo just gets to upper bracket? wtf i already dont like Lambo
i mean you can definitely disagree with this decision and I do also think it's a bit inconsistent, but how is it Lambo's fault??
You know what would be a really good thing for TL to do to make up for how bad this looks?
Don't hide from it, and acknowledge it. Lambo is lucky to be in the winner's bracket for a spot that he didn't earn and he has a lot to prove to justify keeping that spot. Put that in the opening line of his player's preview whenever TL does a write up for the next round of the tournament.
Talk about how TIME got shafted by the circumstances of another event, and give him his deserved praise.
We can all appreciate that organizing these tournaments is difficult and chaotic at times. But let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge stuff for what it is.
On August 06 2022 02:46 Elentos wrote: So will TIME play top 12 online or be forced to forfeit? Or does TSL cover flight costs that exceed the prize money for 2nd place?
We're working with TIME and KaiZi Gaming to go through all the proper channels so he can make it to Utrecht, with Team Liquid covering the travel expenses. If it's unfortunately not possible, we will allow TIME to play online.
I guess if it's been determined that it's Times fault rather than due to logistics or expenses it makes sense. Still disappointing. Out of the upper bracket players he was the one I was most interested in seeing how they did in the offline portion.
Sorry if this wasn't worded clearly! The offer to allow TIME to play online was only for the scenarios where he was denied a travel visa, or if his visa was ultimately delayed by government action.
In TIME's situation, there are typically aspects of the visa process that need to start at least one month in advance, which would have been in late July during the first week of TSL 9 online. TIME and his team were aware of the TSL 9 dates and expectations, and understanding it was their responsibility to get an approved visa for offline play.
The decision to replace TIME with Lambo was made in collaboration with ESL, who have provided guidance throughout the tournament. I understand the perspective that the ruling looks inconsistent from how Neeb was handled, and will look to find a healthier solution for future situations. In this case, we are planning on continuing on with our previously announced plans.
On August 18 2022 08:39 Vindicare605 wrote: And Aligulac will continue to be biased against him for reasons like this. He was far and away the best non-Korean Terran at this tournament.
As much as I think Clem is overrated, I still don't think TIME is better; that said, I think he might be the second best non-Korean Terran, maybe roughly equal to HM
He didn't say TIME was better, only that he was the best non-Korean Terran in this tournament. As much of a rough patch as it is, Clem has still been a finalist in 7/10 of the latest weeklies.
On August 18 2022 17:11 Poopi wrote: Too bad there is no barcraft in France. I believe the former OG casters will start something in September to cast together now that o'gaming.sc2 is done, but I don't think they can organize a viewing party yet.
what happen to o'gaming.sc2 ? doesn't they still streaming on twitch ?
On August 18 2022 15:10 t5Fab wrote: I really disagree with the choice of replacing Time with Lambo so easily.
If you want to punish time for not being there you could always give the opponent the server choice.
If you want all people to be there in person why should lambo (lost 0-2) take precedence over hero (lost 1-2) or gumiho (0-2 too)? Organise another round robin between the 3 aforementioned players for the UB slot and a straight bo5 for HM and Astrea for the new LB slot. More StarCraft, more fun.
Take a look at Lambo's skin color versus herO's and Gumi's. Theres your answer. I bet GSL would pick herO or Gumi over Lambo
I agree there's an argument to me made about bracket placement unfairness, but an accusation of racism is super uncalled for.
On August 18 2022 15:10 t5Fab wrote: I really disagree with the choice of replacing Time with Lambo so easily.
If you want to punish time for not being there you could always give the opponent the server choice.
If you want all people to be there in person why should lambo (lost 0-2) take precedence over hero (lost 1-2) or gumiho (0-2 too)? Organise another round robin between the 3 aforementioned players for the UB slot and a straight bo5 for HM and Astrea for the new LB slot. More StarCraft, more fun.
Take a look at Lambo's skin color versus herO's and Gumi's. Theres your answer. I bet GSL would pick herO or Gumi over Lambo
I agree there's an argument to me made about bracket placement unfairness, but an accusation of racism is super uncalled for.
Pandora is a troll. Reasonable people know only ESL would rig brackets for foreigners
Bad look for TSL. I imagine the reasoning was that Neeb didn't directly beat anyone to be at the offline finals (he dropped to the LB in his last match), whereas Time beat Lambo to get to the winners SF and had a "direct" replacement, but considering TSL just held a RR for the other spot and there are still weeks to go there's not much excuse.
Super disappointed by the decision to just move Lambo to the upper bracket. Hope he loses and gets pushed back down to where he belongs - LOWER BRACKET.
my message to TSL-9 organizers. It is very hard to do something. People who complain in the comments never did anything to realize how hard it is and how easy it is to criticize. I think you managed the situation as well as it could be. Thank you! Best!
On August 19 2022 18:55 xsnac wrote: my message to TSL-9 organizers. It is very hard to do something. People who complain in the comments never did anything to realize how hard it is and how easy it is to criticize. I think you managed the situation as well as it could be. Thank you! Best!
I mean did they really manage the situation as well as they could have, considering they themselves managed a similar situation not long ago a lot better?
TO first promised the player online play is ok, then nitpicked a wording nuance to justify the terrible disqualification decision, and entirely shifted the blame to the player for the overly short time (2-3 weeks) between the online qualification and the playoff. If the player most likely thinks he won't qualify, given the SC2 prize pool is meager, why is it his responsibility to spend money on a Netherlands visa 2 months in advance, instead of trying to get it after qualification? TO also refuses to understand that it's a much longer process for Chinese specifically to get a Netherlands visa, and disqualifies TIME (who is the only reason why SC2 fans and events like WTL even exist in China) and pissed off the largest SC2 fan base.
Terrible decision on so many levels, very bad for the scene. Hope it can still be reverted.
On August 18 2022 15:10 t5Fab wrote: I really disagree with the choice of replacing Time with Lambo so easily.
If you want to punish time for not being there you could always give the opponent the server choice.
If you want all people to be there in person why should lambo (lost 0-2) take precedence over hero (lost 1-2) or gumiho (0-2 too)? Organise another round robin between the 3 aforementioned players for the UB slot and a straight bo5 for HM and Astrea for the new LB slot. More StarCraft, more fun.
Take a look at Lambo's skin color versus herO's and Gumi's. Theres your answer. I bet GSL would pick herO or Gumi over Lambo
I agree there's an argument to me made about bracket placement unfairness, but an accusation of racism is super uncalled for.
Pandora is a troll. Reasonable people know only ESL would rig brackets for foreigners
Bad look for TSL. I imagine the reasoning was that Neeb didn't directly beat anyone to be at the offline finals (he dropped to the LB in his last match), whereas Time beat Lambo to get to the winners SF and had a "direct" replacement, but considering TSL just held a RR for the other spot and there are still weeks to go there's not much excuse.
According to the post by SeaGnome (#31), the decision is make with consultation with ESL. So, ias against Korean confirmed?
In all serious, it probably do not matter all that much in terms of the title race. And whether the player is eliminated at RO8 or RO16 is probably not the kind of thing they care that much anyways.
On August 20 2022 08:40 chilongqua322 wrote: TO first promised the player online play is ok, then nitpicked a wording nuance to justify the terrible disqualification decision, and entirely shifted the blame to the player for the overly short time (2-3 weeks) between the online qualification and the playoff. If the player most likely thinks he won't qualify, given the SC2 prize pool is meager, why is it his responsibility to spend money on a Netherlands visa 2 months in advance, instead of trying to get it after qualification? TO also refuses to understand that it's a much longer process for Chinese specifically to get a Netherlands visa, and disqualifies TIME (who is the only reason why SC2 fans and events like WTL even exist in China) and pissed off the largest SC2 fan base.
Terrible decision on so many levels, very bad for the scene. Hope it can still be reverted.
I second this. Honestly, I would love to see more MaxPax gimmickeries too. Allowing online plays in a mostly offline tournament will help bring him in more often as well.
For whatever reason, it is believed that players who play online from home have an advantage over players who play offline, even with higher ping, while there is little or none audience in this case. And if you allow one player to do it, then others players will request for it as well as not everyone like to travel. So thats a tough situation and you have to make very delicate decision on a case-by-case basis.
In this case, the reason for disqualifying Time because he didnt get the visa in time was somewhat understandable. And I know that applying for visa from certain countries might be tougher than others in term of the cost and time, but that burden still fall on the player and they have to get that ready on time for the travel. Unless the tournament organizer can apply the visa for player themselves, there is nothing they could do neither.
Well since it's not addressed anywhere in this thread I may as well ask
Does TIME at least get the minimum prize money he would have received for his performance? Or is that getting cut too and we're just pretending he was never there?
Are there enough places in those barcrafts to just come and drink/watch the games? I guess so since sc2 is not as popular as games such as LoL. Might go to one of them if tickets to London aren’t too expensive around that time
On August 20 2022 17:46 Poopi wrote: Are there enough places in those barcrafts to just come and drink/watch the games? I guess so since sc2 is not as popular as games such as LoL. Might go to one of them if tickets to London aren’t too expensive around that time
The last UKSC2 viewing event was the Feb 2020 IEM just before COVID. Normally we get around 20 people, but this is the first time one will have TL support. If you're thinking of coming, I recommend joining the UKSC2 Discord.
On August 19 2022 15:45 Edpayasugo wrote: Nice, I havnt been to Meltdown for years but if I am free I may go along!
Just so you know, the Meltdown BarCraft has been moved to Saturday with Sidequest on Sunday. This is so we don't end up split over two bars. Feel free to come to either! Hope to see you there
EPT
TIME and KaiZi, it looks like TIME will be unable to acquire a visa in time for TSL 9, and we are looking to replace him for the event. The event was communicated as a two stage competition with an offline portion since the initial announcement in June. In this situation, the player did not properly apply for a visa in time and was unable to travel to TSL.
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