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Hello, Recently we've seen that Hero has been able to restore the PvZ meta a bit. From what I see on a professional level, 85% of openings are played with the stargate and my first question is the following: does the threat come from the fact that the effectiveness of the roach compared to the stalker is too big? We also know this ‘Queen walk’ build order and the fix which have been done to avoid his abuse., But in fact if 85% of the openings are made by the stargate it is still legit to complain as a Protoss, and since I watched the PvZ although the last patch worked out, I wonder if this isn't just the tree that hides the forest. When we compare the price and the dps of the roach to the stalker, there are reasons to wonder if the stalker is really useful, and stalkers is still used in pro-games but isn t only by default ?
The stalker is the only Protoss ground unit capable of targetting into air units with a decent range. Is the stalker ultimately just this catch-all unit? Also recently, I read that the lack of tools against creep was often involved against PvZ which certainly leads very quickly to the end of the game (sick) where stalkers gets their ass kicked. In addition, it is considered in its design to be "weak" against zerglings which decrease their interest again.
I think only professionals could give their opinion on this, it seems rather clear for them to be impossible of making a build order "blink / stalker into robot" with the potential to slow down the development of creep. However, there must be solutions, could we not just give a spell to the sentry for example, instead of hallucination, which isn t popular anymore, to allow an unit to be temporarily able to detect invisibility? It might be a good idea to add a tool before observers timer and because it allows to open a branch of the protoss development tree without touching roachs or stalkers caracteristics.
Sorry for my spelling mistakes
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I've read this 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to ask.
I find it hilarious though that you have a comment that only professionals should be replying to you though. Especially since I can't figure out what the question even is.
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I'm confused as to what the problem is here, or that you're seeing.
Are you complaining that Protoss seems forced to open SG or something? Because that's been the meta for PvZ brood war for a very long time, sometimes there are just openings that are optimal and become standard.
I think the Ravager itself is fundamentally flawed, Bile killed off the FFE and kind of forced P into this, "build things that Ravagers can't shoot" phase, but lately PvZ has been extremely fun to watch.
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Okay, let me try to re-phrase the post and the question here. So you think that because the patch was supposed to eliminate the SG opening, but Protoss still does it? So you think SG wasnt the problem, it was the stalker that being too weak as a unit in PvZ in early game that you dont see any Stalker opening in PvZ?
I think what the patched set to do was to take out the double stargate Voidray build, the single stargate opening into Oracles is dominant in current Meta because of its ability to both clear creep and provide good harassments tool. And it give a good transition into any other tech from the Protoss side AFAIK.
As for Stalker opening, I think they are shit against lings even off creep, so its very hard to open with mass Stalker against the units that Zerg build from the very get go. They are good against Roach because of extra range, bonus DPS and mobility.
As for why not having another spell to detect creep, I dont see why you need to do it as the Oracle are quite perfect for it. If you want to get rid of the stargate entirely and let Protoss do a full ground army, then quick Robo into Observer is needed anyway.
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On August 17 2022 22:22 Vindicare605 wrote:
I've read this 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to ask.
I find it hilarious though that you have a comment that only professionals should be replying to you though. Especially since I can't figure out what the question even is.
you are terran and the question does not concern you since you play neither protoss nor zerg. Even if you play against professionals
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Bit hard to follow, but I'll just assume we are just talking about interaction with creep.
If they made the creep tumour visible even without detection, I don't you would see more non-sg openers.
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On August 18 2022 03:43 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 22:22 Vindicare605 wrote:
I've read this 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to ask.
I find it hilarious though that you have a comment that only professionals should be replying to you though. Especially since I can't figure out what the question even is. you are terran and the question does not concern you since you play neither protoss nor zerg. Even if you play against professionals
I was a Terran main and I can tell you that  HerO's SG opener allowed for stalkers to go deeper into Zerg's side of the map and then retreat into 3 oracles ready to beam down any lings that give chase. This is in addition to the drone harass, revelations, and statis wards with the oracles.
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On August 18 2022 03:43 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 22:22 Vindicare605 wrote:
I've read this 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to ask.
I find it hilarious though that you have a comment that only professionals should be replying to you though. Especially since I can't figure out what the question even is. you are terran and the question does not concern you since you play neither protoss nor zerg. Even if you play against professionals
Any decent SC player should have an in-depth knowledge of every single race, it’s how you get good at understanding matchups in the first place so tone down just a little bit because you’re making it easy for people to dislike you if that’s the way you’re going to communicate to people trying to understand what you’re asking so in return they could help you answer your question.
Funny thing is though you start with a question but then you proceed laying out an answer to your question.. was this meant as a monologue? I can see why people are confused.
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On August 18 2022 04:13 AusProbe wrote:
Bit hard to follow, but I'll just assume we are just talking about interaction with creep.
If they made the creep tumour visible even without detection, I don't you would see more non-sg openers.
Yes it mainly concerns creep, would you play some none official games with tumors visible against a pro zerg player ? I mean it could be casted by OG or Wardi (I guess...) on a show / stream with the "What If" Theme.
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On August 18 2022 03:43 Vision_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 22:22 Vindicare605 wrote:
I've read this 3 times and I still don't understand what you're trying to ask.
I find it hilarious though that you have a comment that only professionals should be replying to you though. Especially since I can't figure out what the question even is. you are terran and the question does not concern you since you play neither protoss nor zerg. Even if you play against professionals
Believe it or not, if you change a unit to help PvZ, that same unit will remain changed in PvT. You probably shouldn't make a (serious) balance suggestion without trying to think through how it affects other matchups, i.e you'd probably want some Terran players contributing to the conversation.
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Stalkers are very efficient vs Roaches as they should be, this has been the case since the Stalker damage was changed and the upgrade value followed suit. There is the Ravager though, which is a big factor. But I don't really see it as a case of Ravager/Roach vs Stalker, it's that Stalkers are really weak vs lings, especially in lower numbers. So you always need to have Sentries with your Stalkers, the thing is the Oracle does the job of the Sentry better. So we just use the Oracle as the modern Sentry.
It was long ago when there was mass Oracle meta that Classic actually showed a strong follow up was mass Blink Stalker, since there is a strong synergi between Stasis and Stalkers. With Stalkers being adept at killing small ling squads trying to trigger the Stasis, so the Stasis usually get huge value. Also the Pulsar Beam kills the lings, which would otherwise spell the end of the Stalker kiting.
Oracle got cheaper Relevation not too long ago, so that actually has the benefit of giving sufficient detection, meaning Obs are less important, I don't think Protoss has had a weakness to detect things, ever since Blizz merged Envision and Revelation.
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Poland425 Posts
On August 17 2022 22:38 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the problem is here, or that you're seeing.
Are you complaining that Protoss seems forced to open SG or something? Because that's been the meta for PvZ brood war for a very long time, sometimes there are just openings that are optimal and become standard.
I think the Ravager itself is fundamentally flawed, Bile killed off the FFE and kind of forced P into this, "build things that Ravagers can't shoot" phase, but lately PvZ has been extremely fun to watch.
Oh really? Because as I remember, before Roach, every PvZ was Protoss trashing Zerg with mass Stalker/Sentry and guess what. Zerg was defenceless vs that.
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On August 18 2022 19:25 ejozl wrote:
Stalkers are very efficient vs Roaches as they should be, this has been the case since the Stalker damage was changed and the upgrade value followed suit. There is the Ravager though, which is a big factor. But I don't really see it as a case of Ravager/Roach vs Stalker, it's that Stalkers are really weak vs lings, especially in lower numbers. So you always need to have Sentries with your Stalkers, the thing is the Oracle does the job of the Sentry better. So we just use the Oracle as the modern Sentry.
It was long ago when there was mass Oracle meta that Classic actually showed a strong follow up was mass Blink Stalker, since there is a strong synergi between Stasis and Stalkers. With Stalkers being adept at killing small ling squads trying to trigger the Stasis, so the Stasis usually get huge value. Also the Pulsar Beam kills the lings, which would otherwise spell the end of the Stalker kiting.
Oracle got cheaper Relevation not too long ago, so that actually has the benefit of giving sufficient detection, meaning Obs are less important, I don't think Protoss has had a weakness to detect things, ever since Blizz merged Envision and Revelation.
It s interessant so my topic is null and unnecessary but,
On August 19 2022 01:33 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 22:38 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I'm confused as to what the problem is here, or that you're seeing.
Are you complaining that Protoss seems forced to open SG or something? Because that's been the meta for PvZ brood war for a very long time, sometimes there are just openings that are optimal and become standard.
I think the Ravager itself is fundamentally flawed, Bile killed off the FFE and kind of forced P into this, "build things that Ravagers can't shoot" phase, but lately PvZ has been extremely fun to watch. Oh really? Because as I remember, before Roach, every PvZ was Protoss trashing Zerg with mass Stalker/Sentry and guess what. Zerg was defenceless vs that.
Yes so, as Blizzard suggested to help zerg against force fields, it could be reasonnable to think that solution must be proportionnal to the issue. Indeed, force fields cost 50 mana but ravagers can throw biles every 7 s... And these two units cost 100 gas. There s no need to find a perfect solution, but if biles would have cost mana, they would be virtually free.
That s why the ravager solution proposed by Blizzard is a good solution except if we put appart the fact that there are thrown continually. If community consider that meta has shifted too much after this, then a middle solution could be tested in some showmatch i.e biles decreases FF timer by 5 seconds instead of remove them.
Poll: do you think the meta can evolve if biles doesn t remove FF instantlyNo (4) 80% Yes (1) 20% 5 total votes Your vote: do you think the meta can evolve if biles doesn t remove FF instantly (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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I don't like this solution, adds a lot of complexity. Now when a Force Field gets Biled, you have to know how much time is left on it for you to know, whether, the Force Field gets destroyed, or if it's still up. And the Zerg has to know how many Biles they should spent on it.
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EPT
