|
On August 15 2022 15:54 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2022 14:56 Charoisaur wrote:On August 15 2022 13:10 tigera6 wrote:
Btw, lots of people outraging about GSL denying Reynor off-racing this time after he has asked them and they, in turn, asked the other players to which the players said no. Don't understand this, of course Race-switching last second isn't allowed in a tournament which focuses so much on preparation, it would be way more outrageous if it was allowed The odd thing is that (based on the above video) it sounds like there wasn't a rule specifying that he couldn't swap races. Instead they were like were like "I dunno... let's ask the players what they think." You know, the players who are obviously going to give the answer that benefits themselves the most. The players shouldn't be the ones deciding the rules in such a prestigious tournament; it's a clear conflict of interest and it's a bad look for the GSL which makes it seem like they don't have their stuff together. I could totally understand if GSL clearly stated in their tournament rules that a player has to specify their race and stick to it throughout the tournament - like you said, it would support the preparation style of the tournament - but the way they went about it seems all wrong. If what Reynor said was true and I interpreted it correctly, the right thing to do would have been letting him race swap for this tournament and then officially make a rule about it afterwards if they don't like it.
Probably misinterpreted like Durnuu said but even if it wasn't I don't see the problem with asking players how they feel about it. I bet for most rules at one point player feedback was relevant in deciding how to do it.
edit: like the more even prize money distribution we got for example. That's also something that was implemented after listening to feedback from (probably mostly) lower level players that also had a conflict of interest there.
That's how you should do it as an organizer: Ask the players for feedback, evaluate the feedback and then make a decision.
Better than just doing whatever the fuck you want and never asking the players for opinions.
I really don't see the problem here
|
I'll repost here something I wrote elsewhere about this whole situation:
So let's be clear. If there's a rule, then it's a rule, and it's ok. It could be all a misunderstanding, and it's definitely not worth a riot in any case because reynor himself seems very chill about it.
It has to be said that if there's a written rule about it, it makes no sense to ask for other players opinions in any case, bending a rule to allow the switch or bending it to not allow it it'd be equally bad and unfair. And this is very different from asking for feedback before establishing a rule or making a decision: a rule should be made and enforced before a tournament begins, and the feedback asked way before then, certainly not as the situation arises, also asking the same people that would suffer a (fair) disadvantage if Reynor were allowed to switch race.
Now, as a Reynor fan, I'm kind of relieved that he won't be all over the place with his training, and he will focus 100% on zergs, given his recent shape has been kind of meh. As an ignorant fan I'm honestly happier this way, even tho I would have supported him anyway, obviously.
Now, on the topic of switching himself, I'm surprised by how many people here are against it. This is a competition. All the players have access to all the races and the tools in the game, if they're willing to add weapons to their arsenal, aka get better with another race.
If a player has the will or the talent to pursue an edge in that regard, there's really no reason to forbid the use of that edge. GSL gives players time to prepare, so what? They can prepare in case there's a race switch, let's not pretend like rocket scientists need to get involved for months to prepare for an opponent, but even if that was the case, well, tough luck.
But as I said, whether the games would be better or worse, whether the preparation time would be enough or not, a competition is a competition: if you can have an advantage fairly gained, you should be not only allowed, but encouraged to use it.
|
I agreed with Charoisaur and Durnuu. It looked like miscommunication. Players in GSL never do race-swap before, so it is kind of new thing to bend the rule in favor of certain player. Therefore, the organizer ask the usual players in GSL whether they want to bend the rule, or to disallow the race-swap at the middle of tournament. From my understanding, I bet majority disagreed to bend the rule.
Also, looking from different perspective, the monthly preparation-style tournament would lose its prestige if allowing the race-swap to continue. If Reynor wanted to do the race-swap, better he stick with "Random" race before registering the GSL event. These seemed fair to the other players who were also preparing and aware of Reynor's chosen race before the matches started.
|
On August 15 2022 17:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2022 15:54 Kitai wrote:On August 15 2022 14:56 Charoisaur wrote:On August 15 2022 13:10 tigera6 wrote:
Btw, lots of people outraging about GSL denying Reynor off-racing this time after he has asked them and they, in turn, asked the other players to which the players said no. Don't understand this, of course Race-switching last second isn't allowed in a tournament which focuses so much on preparation, it would be way more outrageous if it was allowed The odd thing is that (based on the above video) it sounds like there wasn't a rule specifying that he couldn't swap races. Instead they were like were like "I dunno... let's ask the players what they think." You know, the players who are obviously going to give the answer that benefits themselves the most. The players shouldn't be the ones deciding the rules in such a prestigious tournament; it's a clear conflict of interest and it's a bad look for the GSL which makes it seem like they don't have their stuff together. I could totally understand if GSL clearly stated in their tournament rules that a player has to specify their race and stick to it throughout the tournament - like you said, it would support the preparation style of the tournament - but the way they went about it seems all wrong. If what Reynor said was true and I interpreted it correctly, the right thing to do would have been letting him race swap for this tournament and then officially make a rule about it afterwards if they don't like it. Probably misinterpreted like Durnuu said but even if it wasn't I don't see the problem with asking players how they feel about it. I bet for most rules at one point player feedback was relevant in deciding how to do it. edit: like the more even prize money distribution we got for example. That's also something that was implemented after listening to feedback from (probably mostly) lower level players that also had a conflict of interest there. That's how you should do it as an organizer: Ask the players for feedback, evaluate the feedback and then make a decision. Better than just doing whatever the fuck you want and never asking the players for opinions. I really don't see the problem here
If what Durnuu said is correct and it's in the rules, there is no problem. If the other players were asked if it was okay to bend the rules for someone else and they said no, once again that's fine. Heck, they probably shouldn't have asked in the first place if that was the case since it puts the players in an awkward spot.
The prize money thing is not an equal comparison and has nothing to do with fairness of competition or establishing tournament rules. Your "probably mostly" statement is pure speculation (not to mention with no source as to the tournament in question, as plenty of organizations have adjusted prize pools between tournaments or in response to other feedback and funding, and I don't recall any instance where the players dictated a prize pool change just before the start of a premier tournament).
Conflict of interest is the most basic thing to be aware of for anyone who is in a position to make rules, and if what Reynor said was true it would be a pretty big lapse in judgement.
|
On August 15 2022 23:42 RDO wrote:
Now, on the topic of switching himself, I'm surprised by how many people here are against it. This is a competition. All the players have access to all the races and the tools in the game, if they're willing to add weapons to their arsenal, aka get better with another race.
If a player has the will or the talent to pursue an edge in that regard, there's really no reason to forbid the use of that edge. GSL gives players time to prepare, so what? They can prepare in case there's a race switch, let's not pretend like rocket scientists need to get involved for months to prepare for an opponent, but even if that was the case, well, tough luck.
But as I said, whether the games would be better or worse, whether the preparation time would be enough or not, a competition is a competition: if you can have an advantage fairly gained, you should be not only allowed, but encouraged to use it.
As is historically has been disallowed korean players had no incentive to practice their offraces and thus it would be unfair to suddenly allow it for Reynor.
I think if you are good enough with other races and want to compete with them you should either fully switch race (for full series) or play random like Flash and not only switch race when it's convenient for you based on the maps and the opposing race. Just takes away from it imo.
|
Personally I dont get the outrage, like OMG Reynor cant play PvZ and now has to stick with ZvZ, its the end of the world. I think Reynor is doing fine with playing only Zerg and more than capable of winning GSL with just Zerg. And I dont see its a "conflict of interest" if you ask another player to either play Reynor as a Zerg or a Protoss, because neither case are that attractive. I guess they are more concerned with how the off-race will be handle within the tournament.
As for the rule and the decision, I have no clue where is the GSL rulebook, but I think they never expected a player to off-race in GSL so that clause might have not been in there at all. Even if thats the case, the tournament organizer reseve the right to make any decision they see fit upon the exception.
But even IF off-racing is allowed, it must be done such that all parties are informed of it on time. I dont think player should be able to switch race in the middle of the series, hell they must declare their race before the map veto, or even 1 week earlier for proper preparation. That would take away all the element of suprise and randomness out of it.
And no, not allowing off-racing does not mean it would kill the SC2 scence, like some of the comment I saw in the video.
|
|
|
I think the best rule would just be making players announce their race within a day of groups/matchups being decided, but having a no race swapping rule isn't a big deal either.
As far as Reynor goes, being banned from playing Toss probably helps him. I don't think Reynor is trolling - he probably believes PvZ could reduce the variance of his results against Zerg - but his record against every Zerg other than Solar suggests he'd be better off sticking to ZvZ for now.
|
On August 16 2022 01:23 dysenterymd wrote:
I think the best rule would just be making players announce their race within a day of groups/matchups being decided, but having a no race swapping rule isn't a big deal either.
As far as Reynor goes, being banned from playing Toss probably helps him. I don't think Reynor is trolling - he probably believes PvZ could reduce the variance of his results against Zerg - but his record against every Zerg other than Solar suggests he'd be better off sticking to ZvZ for now.
tbh i think Reynor was probably looking to play mindgames. like, his opponents have to prefer for the possibility he MIGHT play Protoss, but then he never does anyway.
I think it's good they don't allow him to raceswitch, I think it was apparently not very well communicated though.
|
Thanks! I retract my outrage 
|
hero byun
reynor dream
maru classic
creator ryung
dark cure
|
On August 15 2022 16:44 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2022 13:10 tigera6 wrote:
Btw, lots of people outraging about GSL denying Reynor off-racing this time after he has asked them and they, in turn, asked the other players to which the players said no. Sounds like miscommunication to me, because GSL has never allowed raceswitching in the middle of the tournament (let alone series). You choose a race (including Random if you fancy that) at the beginning and you stick with it throughout, always been like that. Maybe GSL asked the other players if they could bend the rules for Reynor, instead.
+1
|
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed
|
On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed
While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance.
Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps.
I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format.
Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that.
|
On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that.
I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here:
Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem.
At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden.
|
On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Show nested quote +Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden.
Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match.
However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2:
It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood.
In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment.
|
On August 17 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden. Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match. However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2: It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood. In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment.
I don't know exactly how far in advance the maps are known, but a solution could be that without knowing the race the opponent might want to play, you have to lock in a race for each series some time after the map picks. Then the race matchups are revealed at that time, giving both sides some shorter amount of time to prepare. It'd avoid the problem you guys describe, and also somewhat mitigate the "GSL is a preparation tournament, so let players prepare with full info" part. But still allow for picking and choosing for map advantage. Of course, all the mind games still apply if multiple people want to switch races, but that could be refreshing for viewers as well. If you picked Protoss because you don't like ZvT on a map, and the opponent picks Z, so you're stuck in a PvZ, which might be a matchup you didn't want. So maybe you prepare a devious adept all-in just for the occasion. I dunno, seems like it might be interesting.
|
On August 17 2022 08:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote:On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden. Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match. However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2: It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood. In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment. I don't know exactly how far in advance the maps are known, but a solution could be that without knowing the race the opponent might want to play, you have to lock in a race for each series some time after the map picks. Then the race matchups are revealed at that time, giving both sides some shorter amount of time to prepare. It'd avoid the problem you guys describe, and also somewhat mitigate the "GSL is a preparation tournament, so let players prepare with full info" part. But still allow for picking and choosing for map advantage. Of course, all the mind games still apply if multiple people want to switch races, but that could be refreshing for viewers as well. If you picked Protoss because you don't like ZvT on a map, and the opponent picks Z, so you're stuck in a PvZ, which might be a matchup you didn't want. So maybe you prepare a devious adept all-in just for the occasion. I dunno, seems like it might be interesting.
I don't like mind-games that occur before you have the ability to gather any information. I know it's already the Case with some Nexus first / CC first gambles but it shouldn't be further encouraged imo. This is sc2 and not rock - paper - scissors.
|
There is an advantage to knowing your opponent and their race ahead of time, it gives you the opportunity to prep something special for them that they aren't ready for. That much is obvious. But with Random you don't get to control which of the 3 races you're going to spawn in as, so you need to prepare 3 different openings to deal with whatever your opponent is going to try. If you're able to race swap however, that means that you gain the advantage of knowing your opponent beforehand and what match up you want to play against them beforehand, while they need to prepare for two differrent possible scenarios that they could face against you.
It's a much greater advantage than if you were playing Random from the outset.
Personally, I think the Korean rules are correct if you're trying to maximize "fairness" in a match. If you're going to play more than one race, you have to select Random from the start which is a SUPER difficult way to win because it means you have to constantly be practicing 9 match ups all the time because you're never sure which one you're going to end up playing.
If you're able to race swap mid tournament, you only have to practice the match ups with your off race that you deem advantageous to you. It's a whole separate thing that as a Random player I would love to be able to do if I had the chance. If I had the choice to pick whichever of the match ups that I wanted to play, I would have a much higher winrate.
|
guys to make it more fair, why not just have 1 race ? heh heh
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
