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Thanks! I retract my outrage 
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hero byun
reynor dream
maru classic
creator ryung
dark cure
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On August 15 2022 16:44 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2022 13:10 tigera6 wrote:
Btw, lots of people outraging about GSL denying Reynor off-racing this time after he has asked them and they, in turn, asked the other players to which the players said no. Sounds like miscommunication to me, because GSL has never allowed raceswitching in the middle of the tournament (let alone series). You choose a race (including Random if you fancy that) at the beginning and you stick with it throughout, always been like that. Maybe GSL asked the other players if they could bend the rules for Reynor, instead.
+1
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Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed
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On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed
While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance.
Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps.
I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format.
Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that.
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Germany15880 Posts
On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that.
I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here:
Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem.
At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden.
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On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Show nested quote +Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden.
Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match.
However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2:
It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood.
In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment.
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On August 17 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden. Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match. However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2: It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood. In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment.
I don't know exactly how far in advance the maps are known, but a solution could be that without knowing the race the opponent might want to play, you have to lock in a race for each series some time after the map picks. Then the race matchups are revealed at that time, giving both sides some shorter amount of time to prepare. It'd avoid the problem you guys describe, and also somewhat mitigate the "GSL is a preparation tournament, so let players prepare with full info" part. But still allow for picking and choosing for map advantage. Of course, all the mind games still apply if multiple people want to switch races, but that could be refreshing for viewers as well. If you picked Protoss because you don't like ZvT on a map, and the opponent picks Z, so you're stuck in a PvZ, which might be a matchup you didn't want. So maybe you prepare a devious adept all-in just for the occasion. I dunno, seems like it might be interesting.
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Germany15880 Posts
On August 17 2022 08:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2022 06:06 Balnazza wrote:On August 16 2022 22:21 Charoisaur wrote:On August 16 2022 22:05 Acrofales wrote:On August 16 2022 21:22 TentativePanda wrote:
Rules are rules, but there are really no reasons why raceswitching shouldn’t be allowed While I understand the player who plays off-race has to practice 2 races, and that is a severe handicap, I can also see a case to be made by GSL that their preparation-heavy tournament gives the players information in advance precisely so they can prepare builds in advance. Furthermore, individual maps are not necessarily fully balanced between races, but a map pool is supposed to be reasonably balanced across any series. By playing 2 separate races you can "game" the system by picking different match-ups for different maps, thereby getting the best out of all the maps. I would personally love for Reynor to be able to mindgame an opponent by playing Protoss on a map that would normally favour zerg just to screw with them, and such, which should, imho, be a valid way of playing the game. But I can also see a point, where that is seen as gaming the system, between the inherent map imbalance and the GSL preparation-rewarding format. Once again, just because I can understand the argument and am not too upset by this, my personal opinion is that if you're good enough at two different races to play at a top level with them, you should be allowed to do exactly that. I have seen one very good argument why it shouldn't be allowed on reddit which I will just quote here: Bigger issue with mid match race switching becomes when do you lock in the choice? It gives an advantage to whichever player chooses last. That becomes an advantage which is completely preventable as well. If Reynor is avoiding zvz and he plays a zerg, he picks Protoss. Can the other Z decide to off race as well or are they already locked in? Do you only let a loser switch?
It ends up adding a whole layer of unnecessary rules or potential meta game advantages. If Reynor wants to random, let him pick random. If he is just trying to pick his own matchups then that becomes a problem. At the moment it's not a problem because nobody except Reynor racepicks but it might be one of the reason why race-picking has historically been forbidden. Personally I am a fan of "you lock in the race at the start of the series". So no mid-Bo3/5/7 switching. Reynor starts with P? He has to stick with that through the match. However, in the situation you described, I maybe can give some input on that, since I was an admin for WC3CL, a big community-league for WC3. And I can remember a clanwar where I was called in to help, because two players were in the exact deadlock you described. Since I can't remember the exact situation, I will just translate it to SC2: It was a ZvZ, so player 1 wanted to switch to P. Player 2 however likes to play ZvZ, but switches to T when he plays against P. Player 1 however plays Z against P...so they switched and switched and couldn't find a solution. Score was 1-1 and it was already a very bad mood. In the end, both players had to message me the race they wanted to pick and then stick with it. Which isn't ideal either, since it opens up room for lots of mind games, but it was the best we could do in that moment. I don't know exactly how far in advance the maps are known, but a solution could be that without knowing the race the opponent might want to play, you have to lock in a race for each series some time after the map picks. Then the race matchups are revealed at that time, giving both sides some shorter amount of time to prepare. It'd avoid the problem you guys describe, and also somewhat mitigate the "GSL is a preparation tournament, so let players prepare with full info" part. But still allow for picking and choosing for map advantage. Of course, all the mind games still apply if multiple people want to switch races, but that could be refreshing for viewers as well. If you picked Protoss because you don't like ZvT on a map, and the opponent picks Z, so you're stuck in a PvZ, which might be a matchup you didn't want. So maybe you prepare a devious adept all-in just for the occasion. I dunno, seems like it might be interesting.
I don't like mind-games that occur before you have the ability to gather any information. I know it's already the Case with some Nexus first / CC first gambles but it shouldn't be further encouraged imo. This is sc2 and not rock - paper - scissors.
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There is an advantage to knowing your opponent and their race ahead of time, it gives you the opportunity to prep something special for them that they aren't ready for. That much is obvious. But with Random you don't get to control which of the 3 races you're going to spawn in as, so you need to prepare 3 different openings to deal with whatever your opponent is going to try. If you're able to race swap however, that means that you gain the advantage of knowing your opponent beforehand and what match up you want to play against them beforehand, while they need to prepare for two differrent possible scenarios that they could face against you.
It's a much greater advantage than if you were playing Random from the outset.
Personally, I think the Korean rules are correct if you're trying to maximize "fairness" in a match. If you're going to play more than one race, you have to select Random from the start which is a SUPER difficult way to win because it means you have to constantly be practicing 9 match ups all the time because you're never sure which one you're going to end up playing.
If you're able to race swap mid tournament, you only have to practice the match ups with your off race that you deem advantageous to you. It's a whole separate thing that as a Random player I would love to be able to do if I had the chance. If I had the choice to pick whichever of the match ups that I wanted to play, I would have a much higher winrate.
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guys to make it more fair, why not just have 1 race ? heh heh
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EPT
