EPTWhat balance / design changes do you want to see? - Page 5
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weiliem
2071 Posts
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Woosixion
120 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
yep, I can attest to this having good applications for protoss as well (been off-racing a bit lately!). it's a right pain in the arse when you need to F2 and hit stim, or when you're having to repeatedly subtract the raven from control groups, especially that one awkward raven early vP. even if customization is too much to ask for, I think most terrans would rather have bio given hard priority: 1) bio 2) ghosts 3) ravens doesn't this make much more sense? the raven's model is freakin huge. it's really not hard to just click on it. terrans tend to have it in a dedicated control group anyway, so it's kinda redundant having it at the top of the unit control priority. after almost 20 years, world of warcraft is almost unplayable to me without a facelift from various UI addons. where sc2 largely feels and plays like a hyper-optimized modern RTS that could have been released yesterday, there are just a few nagging, counter-intuitive UI and control issues that make it frustrating to revisit, or for new players to sink their teeth into. really good suggestions for minimap size, resources, supply and all that stuff. I think this could be delivered with new UI profiles sanctioned by blizzard and the community. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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PtossParty
20 Posts
On May 03 2022 00:52 tad wrote: Creep tumor should be created by queens directly, no free expansion from tumor itself. Love this idea. | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On May 03 2022 06:09 WombaT wrote: Considering how customisable hotkeys are, it’s ridiculous that priority isn’t customisable at all Both your example and ‘oh I didn’t realise I had a single Templar accidentally boxed and missed all my forcefields’ are particularly aggravating examples. It’s also only an issue with specific compositions, and it’s as much an issue with people who use separate keys, or manually box as it is to people F2ing, so it’s not like it is making the game more A-move friendly, given it’s priority to cycling active abilities. Another QoL improvement, customise the UI elements while we’re at it. Never mind actually keeping track of what you’re controlling and tracking in the play space, you have a minimap and timer at the exact opposite end of the screen from your resources/supply. Pull them to where you want. It’s no great skill, or lack thereof to miss something on a minimap solely because the UI draws your eyes to the furthest possible position if you want to check other data. And that’s just repositioning things a little, I think other things could improve QoL for people with vision issues, notably making the minimap bigger, or more customisable in terms of colours. Massive yes to all of this. I'm convinced ladder level lategame TvP would immediately feel a whole lot more fair if I could stim and EMP without having to worry about tab priority. I hhhaaaate mixing ghosts with bio, simply because I know I will miss stims and spells tabbing back and forth. Similar feelings with sentries and lategame ravagers. Having resources and supply in the bottom-middle of the screen (just like observer UIs... that are well made for quickly seeing all relevant information...) would also be beautiful for my easily stressed eyes  | ||
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tigera6
3433 Posts
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notfge
11 Posts
The way I see it, it could really restore the balance of ZvAnything; denying creep is just too expensive for both P and T. But I am quite sick, as a spectator only, mind, to see that many zergs in the final rounds of major tournaments. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On May 03 2022 13:04 Woosixion wrote: some kind of zerg anti-air that can directly match the power of someone massing phoenixes in the early-game, and a hive upgrade for roaches to make them scale better.. maybe like that +3 armor when they're below 50% health from single player I think the zerg's "lack" of anti-air drives a lot of problems. Because you can't just make hydras or mutas on a whim, we've become very comfortable with corruptors being kind of a ridiculous anti-air unit. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary485 Posts
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dph114
30 Posts
On May 03 2022 19:44 SHODAN wrote: yep, I can attest to this having good applications for protoss as well (been off-racing a bit lately!). it's a right pain in the arse when you need to F2 and hit stim, or when you're having to repeatedly subtract the raven from control groups, especially that one awkward raven early vP. even if customization is too much to ask for, I think most terrans would rather have bio given hard priority: 1) bio 2) ghosts 3) ravens doesn't this make much more sense? the raven's model is freakin huge. it's really not hard to just click on it. terrans tend to have it in a dedicated control group anyway, so it's kinda redundant having it at the top of the unit control priority. after almost 20 years, world of warcraft is almost unplayable to me without a facelift from various UI addons. where sc2 largely feels and plays like a hyper-optimized modern RTS that could have been released yesterday, there are just a few nagging, counter-intuitive UI and control issues that make it frustrating to revisit, or for new players to sink their teeth into. really good suggestions for minimap size, resources, supply and all that stuff. I think this could be delivered with new UI profiles sanctioned by blizzard and the community. def agree with your suggestion, this would make bio much more playable at lower-mid levels, where terrans are struggling a lot, it would be huge buff to overall terran mechanical gameplay, for zerg/toss it doesnt really matter, since you dont need to "use spell" for basic units before engagements. it one of the reasons why terrans are reluctant to add ravens and ghost to there bio armies, as even if you dont use there spells suddenly its much hard to micro your bioball. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
On May 06 2022 23:39 notfge wrote: I would only do one change for testing: creep tumors are visible at all times. The way I see it, it could really restore the balance of ZvAnything; denying creep is just too expensive for both P and T. But I am quite sick, as a spectator only, mind, to see that many zergs in the final rounds of major tournaments. This is the entire story of SC2. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
ZvT may also need to be looked at but I think balance is in a bit of a rough spot. Zerg is strong in the match up no doubt, but Ghosts are just so damn good in the late game and are just eye watering efficiency when played at a high level. So it's going to be tough to nerf Zerg against Terran without making them too weak against Protoss. As some people including myself have said, perhaps a creep nerf is in order. I think if creep spread 25% slower and receded 25% faster it would go a long way in ZvT. The match up isn't super broken but when Zerg covers 75% of the map with creep by the 8 minute mark it makes defensive play very strong, and when Zerg can sit back and defend and macro against a Terran, it's going to be tough. | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
I think Zerg's stability could use a nerf but I don't think it should go too far. Current Protoss is an example of what happens when a race is very volatile, and while I think Protoss is cool it's sad to see how unreliable it is in the hands of even the greatest Protoss players in the world. I would prefer if some thought went into making Terran and Protoss less volatile as well, rather than simply making Zerg more volatile. Other than that I think banshees and broodlords could use a slight buff, and adepts could use a slight buff that increases their power only in the mid and lategame. Carriers and ghosts are immensely powerful right now but they feel like "crutch units." If ghosts and carriers were nerfed Terran would fall apart in two matchups and Protoss would fall apart in PvZ. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
I don't think there's any fixing basic race design at this point, but the main Protoss complaint, I feel, is the lack of strategic flexibility. There have been some hilarious games lately where it appears the Zerg just doesn't expect the Protoss to still go air and then gets caught out. Eventually, though, Zerg will stop hurting itself in the confusion and the air nerfs with no compensatory buffs will result in P being in a worse spot. So, imo, the balance team should try to figure out a way to provide some strategic flexibility. I know that's really difficult. If you go air, you either have to keep going air or just abandon that tech and units as worthless. That's always going to be worse than just going ling>roach>ravager>lurker. One idea might be to fix the extreme overtuning of Corruptors/Vikings against colossi. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On May 09 2022 21:26 Jerubaal wrote: One idea might be to fix the extreme overtuning of Corruptors/Vikings against colossi. + colossus are hard-countered too easily by viking / corruptor vikings also ruined TvT. rough timeline: -> tanks were weak AF in WoL. you could just stim into tank lines with mass marine --> weak tanks = less value from vikings, esp. on macro maps where you can just walk around tank lines. tank / viking was a primitive WoL style only played on tiny maps like Slag Pits ----> tank went through an identity crisis, with the whole tankivac thing we settled on a tank that's v. strong against marines and that's what made vikings a core unit in post-patch LotV. thing is, vikings are a 2-dimensional "numbers game" unit. mass marine was much more energetic, fun to play and entertaining to watch. tanks are way too strong in TvT because of vikings starport units are a design mess and need a serious rethink banshees, useless in every matchup, except the odd bio vZ opener. it needs a purpose and a fresh identity. maybe give them D-8 charges? make it super strong vs structures (like the reaper in WoL) so that it better fits the role of harass bomber liberators, v. strong vs ground in the lategame of all matchups (when you can hit the tech + eco that is needed). utterly useless vs. air units. they are so confused about what they're supposed to do vs air. their AA splash got nerfed because zergs couldn't be bothered to micro their mutas. what was the problem? they already had a distinct weakness: short range. simply stay out of their range and all your mutas don't die. was that too strong? OK, maybe reduce their AA range 1 point further, but make their splash super strong like it was before, so you can at least suicide them into clumps of mutas / corruptors / interceptors vikings, stupidly unmicroable and 2-dimensional in every matchup. basically a flying roach that can turn into a ground mech roach. zzz. it needs to be weaker, but control better, and become more defined as a mediocre single-target AA unit with some bonus utility on the ground. I actually really like the idea of weakening its default AA attack, or reducing its default attack range, but giving it a new ability: a powerful single-target AA with finite uses and limited capacity: 2 rockets, one on each wing, that need to be replenished (like interceptors) or perhaps 2 rockets that are available immediately but cannot be replenished (like spider mines). I think I like the 2nd idea better, because that would give terrans a great reason to suicide harass with them once the rockets are spent. I imagine the rocket would have the same range it has presently, but do a shit-tonne more dmg: kinda like a crossover between vulture / scourge. ravens, forever in a weird place. they are stupidly strong vT at every phase of the game. vP, that one raven surviving is the difference between winning and losing. a huge design crutch, just like the mothership core. vZ they aren't really useful except for the odd anti-armor missile. I dunno what to do with this unit, but I think it also needs a big redesign. presently it is way too situationally powerful and far too situationally useless battlecruisers and medivacs are fine. the other starport units are suffering an identity crisis. and yeah, corruptor timings are stupid vs skytoss and mech | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16006 Posts
On May 09 2022 11:51 serendipitous wrote: The big problem as I see it isn't that Zerg is op in the traditional sense. Their units are weak after a few years of nerfs, it's not uncommon to see a pvz or tvz where the Zerg trades 10k resources worse. The problem is Zerg is just so much more stable and reliable than the other two races. Zerg has nigh perfect scouting with speedlords and overseers, incredible map vision with creep and overlords, and an incredibly stable defense with queens and their strong static defense and creep movespeed. Combined with their strong eco top tier Zerg players can see everything coming their way and play as greedy as humanly possible while still surviving. I almost never feel like a game comes down to luck or rock paper scissors with Zerg, but I feel that often with Terran and Protoss. This is especially apparent right now, after years of stability there are few builds that can catch a Zerg off guard. This is a very good explanation of why Zerg is more consistently succesful at the highest level imo. I'm not really sure how to adress this though, maybe just via maps by removing the 'standard' safe Overlord spots as has been suggested several times already, to make it a bit harder for them to gather information. | ||
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leublix
493 Posts
Nerf Carrier. Buff ??? | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
A. You could nerf creep spread rate by 25% and increase recede rate by 25%. This is probably the most straight forward nerf just tune the numbers to make it sonewhat less strong, I don’t know if it really solves the problem though. B. Queen creep tumor energy cost increased to 50, even top tier zergs float a lot of energy on queens but this may also be a transfuse/defense nerf since now queens have less energy to work with overall. It also helps reduce the total number of tumors zerg can place which may slow them down a bit early on making it take longer for creep to cover the map. Might make taking the third too hard vs Terran though since it’s important that queens can roam between the Nat and third. 3. Creep tumors visible, maybe way to huge of a nerf but I think this would allow Terran to actually fight creep spread I think a big issue in the matchup is that a tumor is 25 energy on a spamable unit where a scan is 50 on a command center, even if Terran consistently clear creep unless they have map control right up to the Zergs creep there is nothing they can do to actually halt the spread. In the current meta Zerg can make so much liing bane queen that it’s not really possible for terrran to have control outside of thier push timing as a result the Zerg will always get to push the creep forward. Letting Terran just clear creep without scan both gives Terran a bit more economy with mules and allows them to hit and run creep tumors more effectively as units are always a threat to creep. 4. Determine a way to give Terran a reasonable detection option in tvz. No one wants to make ravens in tvz, they just don’t do enough in the matchup and they compete with reactors and medivac for starport time, Terran does not have the income to go for a second port to make them. This essentially forces Terran to be reliant on scans and early on the numbers game just favors Zergs. Scanning creep only delays the inevitable spread. Unless Terran has map control, which on a macro game they pretty much don’t in the current meta. If Terran has map control usually Zerg is already dead. Maybe another Terran unit could be given the detector tag. 5. Quit making maps where the final bases on a map are so far away that it is extremely difficult to clear creep on the way to securing it./ Zerg is guaranteed to if not control at least permanently deny them due to their position. More hardwires, less pride of altaris. Honestly I think creep issues could be solved with maps but it would probably constrain map design to much to have to balance this mechanic for all time. For instance if all maps were taller then they are wide like jagantha was, or designed like hardwire with close bases that are difficult to lock out with creep. Or are limited to no more than 10 bases. Or had areas of unbuildable terrain that creep could not cross I think Terran would have a better time in the matchup and a creep nerf might be unnecessary. I think the strength of creep tends to compound with maps that are very wide where typically edge bases can not be secured by Terran and Protoss because creep provides to much control and mobility to a Zerg claiming these areas, or allows them to rapidly rotate and crush bases on the other side of the map. | ||
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DaNi_Toss
Costa Rica3 Posts
Why does the nuke have an alert and the nydus doesn't? Considering the amout of games lost because the player didn't see a Nydus making, it might be an intesting though, like you could balance it with a faster build time or something. Or remove the alert from the nuke (as a toss I get chill saying this, but sounds interesting.) lol | ||
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