EPTWhat balance / design changes do you want to see? - Page 7
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Klaus117
3 Posts
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Klaus117
3 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
On May 14 2022 09:57 Klaus117 wrote: What if they adjusted raven so instead of anti armor missile, they gave nearby units an attack buff, it would be much easier to use and more consistent results. Perhaps a +3 dmg buff to all units in a radius. Or maybe instead a 15% attack speed boost. Very similar to guardian shield except for offensive purposes. ok, but only if we change the unit model to this! ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/hqYx9rp.gif) | ||
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Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
Tune it to be easier to set up and maintain very near to hatcheries, but substantially harder to do so away from the base. For example, tumors in some range of a hatchery could stay invisible (as they are now) and have a bigger radius, but tumors outside of hatchery range could be visible, and have a smaller creep spread radius. This way Zerg can still connect their first few bases, but swallowing the map will be a slower process, and not require the opponent to have detection. Creep is one of those mechanics with ridiculous speed-scaling, and this would tune it so that top Zergs can't just throw APM at it until they have guaranteed map control. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 14 2022 10:06 Klaus117 wrote: What if they gave queens an extra cost of 25 gas... this would dampen the amount of early game queen spam, and as a result would also lower the amount of creep spam. Wanna just remove Zerg from the game entirely while we're at it? | ||
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dph114
30 Posts
Nerf Libs, Queen, Disruptor, Carriers, BC, Broodlord, Viper, Infestor, Thor, Collosus, Tempest, Archon, Raven (tvt), Viking (tvt). | ||
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smithcarter
1 Post
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Vision_
870 Posts
On May 14 2022 17:08 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Philosophy change for how creep spread works: Tune it to be easier to set up and maintain very near to hatcheries, but substantially harder to do so away from the base. For example, tumors in some range of a hatchery could stay invisible (as they are now) and have a bigger radius, but tumors outside of hatchery range could be visible, and have a smaller creep spread radius. This way Zerg can still connect their first few bases, but swallowing the map will be a slower process, and not require the opponent to have detection. Creep is one of those mechanics with ridiculous speed-scaling, and this would tune it so that top Zergs can't just throw APM at it until they have guaranteed map control. I would be very happy for base players if something less punitive is found. I like your idea more than the entire removal of spreading creep from tumors themselves. Maybe overlord could grant invisibility to tumors ;o) .. good .. But your idea doesn t resolve the protoss issue, which is the lack of units wiith enought speed to stand at the border of creep (and moving around). That s why i m saying vision is more important than tumors invisibility But if you remove vision from tumors, it will be hell for Zerg to defend against hellions run-by. That s why your idea is revelant, i mean if tumors are enought close of an hatchery they could give vision but not the others. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On May 15 2022 02:44 dph114 wrote: Nerf anti fun units Nerf Libs, Queen, Disruptor, Carriers, BC, Broodlord, Viper, Infestor, Thor, Collosus, Tempest, Archon, Raven (tvt), Viking (tvt). What units are considered fun? | ||
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IMSupervisor
Australia138 Posts
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1704 Posts
I agree with all of this list except Vipers and Disruptor More micro units the better | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On May 15 2022 09:25 ShowTheLights wrote: I agree with all of this list except Vipers and Disruptor More micro units the better Stock solid units have their place in an RTS, units with a niche role have their place, power units have a place Terran is a race of almost nothing but micro units and all players of that race tend to do is complain | ||
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
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Agh
United States1016 Posts
If we're talking units that have had the most detriment to sc2, it's hands down the Broodlord. When it didn't get re-designed mid WoL I was just about sure it was going to be removed in HotS. (Fun little tidbit: When I shared spine/spore/infestor/BL to Destiny I was hoping he'd use his exposure to highlight the unit and get it changed.) There's also the ripple effect of design to consider that the Tempest wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the Broodlord, amongst other decisions. Things like the Swarm Host actually making it into the game was pretty puzzling also. (Soulkey Reality anyone? lmao) Starting worker change should have been 9 at the most. It's weird to think that every unit added to the game with the exception of maybe the Hellbat, Ravager, and Adept actually resulted in negative fun/playability rather than add any value. Honestly I think WoL with very very minor tweaks (and balanced maps) is the best state the game could have. [Some changes of the top of my head: Broodlords attack no longer spawns units, upgrade available to passively increase medivac speed (still no boost), ghost EMP range slightly reduced (The Terran 'Deathball' was actually uncontestable for TvP). Mules removed and changed to outfit an SCV with bonus mineral harvesting or repair (Netting ~155 mineral gain, down from the ~270 of the mule), Calldown Supply increases armor as well as health of a Supply depot. Corruptors given a castable ability that reduces armor of the targeted unit (1 unit per cast with a cooldown). Photon cannons given secondary attack for AA significant buffed to be a viable versus Phoenix and Mutalisk. Engineering bay upgrade for minor turret splash damage. Ultras have a trample type affect the removes forcefields from a longer range, Archons get a similar affect but smaller in comparison.] Plenty more, but that's a good generalization. Maps didn't do the balance situation much justice. (Antiga Shipyard, Testbug, Shakuras Plateau, etc). It's a big shame we had to wait so long to get a map as good as Daybreak made. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
What if tumors keep vision, but just reduce their range a little, maybe roughly 3-4 radius? That way if you want to spread creep quickly you can and use single tumors, but if you want more vision and see everything, you want multiple tumors and spread them out more. I think the idea of making creep tumors further away from hatcheries spread less creep, or slower (creep spawns slower or it takes longer to spawn a new creep tumor), could be a relatively uncomplicated way to nerf it too, without making early game creep weaker. Vipers & Abduct Viper really needs to be taken a look at too. Its original purpose was to allow you to pull expensive units away from a deathball, and give more anti-deathball tools. WoL was deathbally, and they wanted to address it for HotS. In LotV, we don't have a deathball problem anymore, games are spread across a lot more bases with armies doing things in more areas of the map now. Deathballs can work but are riskier and more committal, not the go to anymore. Abduct pulling expensive units is just very anti-fun. There isn't meaningful micro you can do to play around it or stop it. It also is a strong tool to stop comebacks from happening, because there isn't meaningful micro you can do against it without HTs and Feedback or such. Perhaps Abduct can not pull Massive anymore, or make it so that it only pulls 50% distance vs Massive. Watching a Zerg just pull 2-3 Colossus and near guarantee winning a battle is not fun to watch, it's very hard for me to watch when it happens in a pro game. Even if the player is behind I want them to at least have a chance if they micro very well. It's an anti-comeback tool, and deathballs aren't a problem anymore. Abduct probably should not be able to pull Heroic either, watching MS just get pulled and sniped makes it feel like a joke unit. Mothership and Carriers Mothership could also be buffed, if you want then give Carriers a very slight nerf too to compensate. Mothership you could make Time Warp stronger, cost less energy, have more radius or range, anything... You could even give Mothership an HP/attack buff, or more armor, etc. Even something small! Buff it in a way that doesn't break anything, why not. Lurker Mobility Lurkers are probably a little too mobile, I'm not sure if burrow/unburrow needs to be so fast, but at least they did get a very slight hit, which definitely helps (especially makes it harder for Lurkers to chase down retreating units, that tiny burrow/unburrow speed nerf really adds up and results in 1-2 less attacks when chasing down an army). Protoss Walls vs Ling Runbys Ling runbys need to stop, when Protoss has a unit at the wall. Whenever I play Protoss, I'm surprised at how PRECISE you have to be with a Zealot/Adept in order to block the wall vs lings. It takes too much work vs how much game ending damage ling runbys can do, it's not fun to watch pros take so much damage just because they weren't 100% perfect with their positioning. I don't know how to address this though. Perhaps Protoss buildings specifically can have like a tiny 0.1 collision radius around them that applies only to Zerglings? Ravens and PDD Ravens I wish weren't turned into a mostly early game unit that's used for timing pushes. The unit is so much less fun and has much lower potential now. Terran doesn't have a gas sink, which really hinders players who want to play high econ or mine lots of gas. Protoss and Zerg both have powerful gas sink units, which reward you if you successfully manage to get lots of bases and a high gas income. I really don't like how Raven is just a "you get 1 only" unit vs Zerg. It's just really boring design; you should be able to benefit more from creating more Ravens if you want. I understand they wanted to nerf mass late game Raven, yes it was broken. But keep in mind that Zerg has Blinding Cloud and Abducts, which are powerful tools vs mass Ravens, and Corruptors got a speed buff too. There were definitely other ways to nerf the Raven and give much more diminishing returns if you want to make a lot of them. To me, AA missile is kind of like the replacement for PDD; instead of giving you a strong defensive position you can push with, AA is more of an active tagging spell and can force the opponent to want to back up which effectively lets you push. So both PDD and AA missile can be used in similar ways, however with AA missile it's a boring spell where you don't really get more by casting multiple of them... Interference Matrix is like a replacement for both PDD and HSM. It's a spell that instead of destroys units or blocking their projectiles, can render them inactive for a bit. I think the spell itself is fine, though again it sucks there isn't really any practical use vs Zerg. Building ravens to disable Vipers or Infestors just isn't really a thing. Can it be tweaked in a way to make it so? PDD was actually a really well designed and unique spell that allowed for more positional playstyles. Unlike AA missile which speeds up fights, PDD also slows down fights, and increases the defender's advantage which is lacking a little in SC2, and helps increase comeback potential. It can be used aggressively for slow pushes, too. The main issue with PDD, is when you have 20-30 Ravens, and spam 10 PDDs instantly vs Corruptors. The PDDs will instantly block all attacks. And if the Zerg tries to run away, or chase your army down, you can just spam PDDs to be completely safe. Specifically, the issue is that 1 PDD is able to use all of its charges instantly. So if the Zerg army has 30 Corruptors, you only need 3 PDDs to 100% block all attacks, and you can throw more down as you need them. The solution to this is simply make it so that the PDD is only able to shoot down for example 2 projectiles per second. Now suddenly you need 15 (!!!) PDDs if you want to block 100% of the 30 Corruptor's shots! Suddenly, if the Zerg wants to back up and re-engage elsewhere, or chase your army down, the Terran has to burn a LOT of energy. You can also tweak PDD in a way to give it more use in early game, since they wanted to make Raven more useful in early game. In compensation for a PDD only being able to block ~2 projectiles per second, you can buff it's early game usage by allowing it to block a higher number of projectiles. For example, perhaps instead of being able to block 10 projectiles instantly (10 projectiles isn't much early game), you can decrease the energy cost a little and increase the regeneration rate. Now suddenly if you want to plop 1 PDD down for an early push or harass, your PDD can maybe shoot down 20 projectiles by the end of its lifetime, but only 2 shots per second. And if you want to use it lategame, for a quick fight where a PDD won't have time to regenerate as much, maybe it can only shoot down 15 projectiles. If you fight a 30 Corruptor flock with 20 Ravens, you'll have to throw down 15 PDDs to block 100% of shots for 20 seconds straight, which is a LOT of time, but it's also a TON of energy needed. And the simple counter would be to give up that base/position and back up to where the PDDs aren't, or engage the Terran early to force them to burn PDDs before they arrive. Maybe this is still really strong, but probably not too strong now that there is Parabomb along with Abducts. I'm sure there is a way to balance PDD so that it has enough diminishing returns lategame to not be broken, and for it to be useful for early game pushes instead of needing AA missile. Other possibilities is to also increase Raven supply from 2 to 3, which only really hurts lategame mass Raven strats, or to rebalance PDD around 110-125 energy so you can still use 1 for early game pushes but you can't spam 2 instantly per Raven lategame. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On May 15 2022 14:11 serendipitous wrote: No units should exist that can end the game in a single hit like disruptors can Well people didn't want a solid, steady source of aoe damage like the colossus, so instead we got a high risk/high reward unit. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
On May 15 2022 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Creep I think the idea of making creep tumors further away from hatcheries spread less creep, or slower (creep spawns slower or it takes longer to spawn a new creep tumor), could be a relatively uncomplicated way to nerf it too, without making early game creep weaker. . I don t think it s possible. The speed of the creep is an absolute speed, it means that it doesn t depend on the distance because it acts like a single element with multiplicator speed value when tumors are close between themselves. Active creep tumors are modifying creep like a flow, not as single entity. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
On May 15 2022 14:11 serendipitous wrote: No units should exist that can end the game in a single hit like disruptors can It s pretty true since their damage aren t dedicated to counter some units. In comparaison Fungal growth is incredibibly inoffensive. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On May 15 2022 16:07 Jerubaal wrote: Well people didn't want a solid, steady source of aoe damage like the colossus, so instead we got a high risk/high reward unit. but still have the Collossus | ||
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