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On May 21 2022 06:03 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2022 02:48 Vision_ wrote:On May 20 2022 23:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
I disagree. Vultures had a similar ability in BW with a limited number of casts, and no one struggles to understand the concept of not having any more mines. Mines charge ability is reloaded while i don t think : "limited amount of 4 tumors" means that Queens have 4 charges which recovers after some delay. Spider mines can't be reloaded-a BW vulture comes with 3 mines and that's it.
Ok thanks my bad. Maybe it s also inappropriated to compare a game with a 12 units controlling feature.
I can accept to be wrong, but there s a time to list what can be done for tweaking the creep problem at casual level.
1) Limited tumors : Every Queen starts with a fixed number of 3 tumors.
2) Chain tumors : The last tumor of the chain is visible (btw the before last becomes visible when you killed the last)
3) Safe tumors : Only tumors enought close from an hatchery are invisible
What else ?
I remenber someone arguing to create tumors from drones like every other units, which is good but not do-able because it demands a big patch.
I m thinking most of complains concerned the invisible ability (plus the lack of Protoss units for deny creep spreading). If i m not wrong and if the community is complaining about that, i m not really surprised as this feature is contested since the beginning.
Now the best way to implement this tweak consist to take an advantage from the fact that some units could benefit from speed on the mucus while others aren t affect at all. This bonus could be a part of an upgrade ? why not ?
Example : Hydralisks, they are designed for
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Limited creep tumor charges is a terrible change. In the lategame Zerg already bleeds off minerals the most - having to pay extra for easily killed tumors to establish static defense is not a good change.
Much better to limit the ability of creep to spread in some other way. Whether it's slower spread, smaller radius away from hatches, or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors, all of these are better than attaching a cost / limit.
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or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors
It does sound drastic on paper, but honestly with the amount of Queens that Zerg goes for I almost wonder if this is the perfect solution.
I mean, Terran has to sacrifice a Mule for a scan to clear creep, maybe it's time to make the Queen actually have to choose between banking Transfuse vs. spreading creep.
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On May 22 2022 00:05 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors It does sound drastic on paper, but honestly with the amount of Queens that Zerg goes for I almost wonder if this is the perfect solution. I mean, Terran has to sacrifice a Mule for a scan to clear creep, maybe it's time to make the Queen actually have to choose between banking Transfuse vs. spreading creep.
It does have the interesting benefit of making the edge of creep a combat-oriented zone. If Zerg has to put queens there to spread, you create lots of fights with exposed queens.
I think tumors themselves would need a buff in this case, but it certainly makes creep more contestable - and in a way that encourages skirmish-heavy play.
I'd definitely prefer it as a change to limiting tumor-numbers or anything odd like that.
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On May 22 2022 00:10 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2022 00:05 Beelzebub1 wrote:or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors It does sound drastic on paper, but honestly with the amount of Queens that Zerg goes for I almost wonder if this is the perfect solution. I mean, Terran has to sacrifice a Mule for a scan to clear creep, maybe it's time to make the Queen actually have to choose between banking Transfuse vs. spreading creep. It does have the interesting benefit of making the edge of creep a combat-oriented zone. If Zerg has to put queens there to spread, you create lots of fights with exposed queens. I think tumors themselves would need a buff in this case, but it certainly makes creep more contestable - and in a way that encourages skirmish-heavy play. I'd definitely prefer it as a change to limiting tumor-numbers or anything odd like that.
I'm also not a fan of the limiting tumors or hatchery based tumors are cloaked or whatever, not that they don't have their own merits I just think they are inelegant.
I really like your idea and the rationale behind it because I feel like the key to making SC2 the best it can be is to encourage, as you said, skirmish heavy play.
Hopefully the balance team/council thing is willing to be aggressive with changes like they were with the Queen changes which I think has really shifted the meta a bit more to the correct direction for ZvP.
edited
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On May 21 2022 19:41 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Limited creep tumor charges is a terrible change. In the lategame Zerg already bleeds off minerals the most - having to pay extra for easily killed tumors to establish static defense is not a good change.
Much better to limit the ability of creep to spread in some other way. Whether it's slower spread, smaller radius away from hatches, or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors, all of these are better than attaching a cost / limit.
This is not true, Zerg has the most cost efficient late game army in the game.
Zergs choose to be cost inefficient because they can just out expand and throw armies at the opponent killing expansions even if trading badly but winning because they have access to more resources.
When Zerg decides to go true late game split map nothing can compete with cost effectiveness of Viper late game compositions.
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I agree with people who say it is too late for major changes.
But there is one change which could do the whole trick for the entire game at once:
Put Hydralisk into position it was in Broodwar and make the roach the tier 2 unit for Zerg instead.
That means:
- Hydralisk 75/25 and requires nerf.
- Lurker requires nerf.
- Roach requires buff and will be a generally more expensive unit (probably 3 supply).
- Ravagers will be high tier units to break stuff like siegetanks with bile and need buff
After all the queen is not required anymore to be in the position it is currently in and can be changed.
Other than that: Nerf attack speed of all units by ~25%.
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I really like the idea of removing creep spread and making Queens do it manually. It nerfs a mechanic that has gotten overpowered and creates the potential for really interesting interactions at the creep border. I don't know if something that impactful would be considered by the balance team, but I think it could be a really cool change.
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It nerfs a mechanic that has gotten overpowered
I like that you put this, because it does tell the story of creep becoming OP. 5 years ago Zergs just werent as good, mechanics weren't as refined and creep wasn't a problem. Nowadays it's different, all that stuff has changed. The quality of skill and games has went up alot but it's slowly turned creep into an issue.
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On May 22 2022 01:49 Drahkn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2022 19:41 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Limited creep tumor charges is a terrible change. In the lategame Zerg already bleeds off minerals the most - having to pay extra for easily killed tumors to establish static defense is not a good change.
Much better to limit the ability of creep to spread in some other way. Whether it's slower spread, smaller radius away from hatches, or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors, all of these are better than attaching a cost / limit. This is not true, Zerg has the most cost efficient late game army in the game. Zergs choose to be cost inefficient because they can just out expand and throw armies at the opponent killing expansions even if trading badly but winning because they have access to more resources. When Zerg decides to go true late game split map nothing can compete with cost effectiveness of Viper late game compositions.
Have you heard of this unit called the ghost?
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Northern Ireland27048 Posts
On May 22 2022 08:01 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2022 01:49 Drahkn wrote:On May 21 2022 19:41 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Limited creep tumor charges is a terrible change. In the lategame Zerg already bleeds off minerals the most - having to pay extra for easily killed tumors to establish static defense is not a good change.
Much better to limit the ability of creep to spread in some other way. Whether it's slower spread, smaller radius away from hatches, or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors, all of these are better than attaching a cost / limit. This is not true, Zerg has the most cost efficient late game army in the game. Zergs choose to be cost inefficient because they can just out expand and throw armies at the opponent killing expansions even if trading badly but winning because they have access to more resources. When Zerg decides to go true late game split map nothing can compete with cost effectiveness of Viper late game compositions. Have you heard of this unit called the ghost?
Zerg’s supreme late game, even aside of this unit I wasn’t previously aware of is only as cost effective as it is with the combination of mass, repostionable static defences
This thread is quite illustrative as to the difficulties of making a product with asymmetric races that has variety, a similar skill ceiling/floor and is fun to play.
It’s a million and one suggestions, some utterly insane, some rather sensible. I’d stick you’re into the latter category by the way!
All it would take for slight improvements to be incrementally made is to have well, some staff who can sift through various ideas, who have some kind of vision and who can execute it. As far as I can tell those people aren’t in situ
I remember being annoyed that WC3 wasn’t going to be a standard RTS, but hey lo and behold it became my favourite game ever. Hideo Kojima dropped an entire prelude level that was the demo everyone played and went ‘fuck you you’re playing as this dude who isn’t Solid Snake’
There’s enough ideas from the community, good and bad for fodder, there’s just nobody in a position to execute them
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On May 22 2022 11:34 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2022 08:01 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 22 2022 01:49 Drahkn wrote:On May 21 2022 19:41 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Limited creep tumor charges is a terrible change. In the lategame Zerg already bleeds off minerals the most - having to pay extra for easily killed tumors to establish static defense is not a good change.
Much better to limit the ability of creep to spread in some other way. Whether it's slower spread, smaller radius away from hatches, or even something very drastic like just removing spread and forcing queens to put down tumors, all of these are better than attaching a cost / limit. This is not true, Zerg has the most cost efficient late game army in the game. Zergs choose to be cost inefficient because they can just out expand and throw armies at the opponent killing expansions even if trading badly but winning because they have access to more resources. When Zerg decides to go true late game split map nothing can compete with cost effectiveness of Viper late game compositions. Have you heard of this unit called the ghost? Zerg’s supreme late game, even aside of this unit I wasn’t previously aware of is only as cost effective as it is with the combination of mass, repostionable static defences This thread is quite illustrative as to the difficulties of making a product with asymmetric races that has variety, a similar skill ceiling/floor and is fun to play. It’s a million and one suggestions, some utterly insane, some rather sensible. I’d stick you’re into the latter category by the way! All it would take for slight improvements to be incrementally made is to have well, some staff who can sift through various ideas, who have some kind of vision and who can execute it. As far as I can tell those people aren’t in situ I remember being annoyed that WC3 wasn’t going to be a standard RTS, but hey lo and behold it became my favourite game ever. Hideo Kojima dropped an entire prelude level that was the demo everyone played and went ‘fuck you you’re playing as this dude who isn’t Solid Snake’ There’s enough ideas from the community, good and bad for fodder, there’s just nobody in a position to execute them
Is the test server still online ?
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remove recall from the protoss, it's such a bad mechanics
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zerg: nerf queens, buff hydras. hydras should be zergs main anti air, not queens. make hydras viable late game. add a late game roach upgrade to make roach hydra playstyles scale into the late game.
protoss: nerf airtoss, buff mid game.
terran: dunno, someone smarter than me do that
overall: shift the focus away from this either allin or turtle till late game playstyle that we see all the time. action packed mid game is what makes sc2 best.
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On May 22 2022 05:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:I like that you put this, because it does tell the story of creep becoming OP. 5 years ago Zergs just werent as good, mechanics weren't as refined and creep wasn't a problem. Nowadays it's different, all that stuff has changed. The quality of skill and games has went up alot but it's slowly turned creep into an issue.
I doubt it's a case of Zerg players getting mechanically better but due to the 12-worker change in LoTV allowing Zergs to defend and macro up more safely than pre-LoTV. The reason why past Zergs may not be spamming creep so much is that they're too occupied focusing on other aspects of game to stay alive. Queens were always a fundamental part of a Zerg's early game defence. But the slower pre-LoTV economy didn't allow Queens to be massed so quickly and utilised so aggressively in exerting map control or even straight out killing the opponent (queen walk).
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On May 23 2022 14:26 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2022 05:31 Beelzebub1 wrote:It nerfs a mechanic that has gotten overpowered I like that you put this, because it does tell the story of creep becoming OP. 5 years ago Zergs just werent as good, mechanics weren't as refined and creep wasn't a problem. Nowadays it's different, all that stuff has changed. The quality of skill and games has went up alot but it's slowly turned creep into an issue. I doubt it's a case of Zerg players getting mechanically better but due to the 12-worker change in LoTV allowing Zergs to defend and macro up more safely than pre-LoTV. The reason why past Zergs may not be spamming creep so much is that they're too occupied focusing on other aspects of game to stay alive. Queens were always a fundamental part of a Zerg's early game defence. But the slower pre-LoTV economy didn't allow Queens to be massed so quickly and utilised so aggressively in exerting map control or even straight out killing the opponent (queen walk).
Like you i hate the 12 workers (but enjoy less amount of minerals per base), and i mostly agree that Zerg won precious second in LoV (1 second per worker, so 6 seconds plus impulse/momentum at start while build order has been shifted from 2 or 3 workers...).
I think it could be the origin of the issue.
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As many people here have mentioned, queens and creep are the bane of sc2.
I would like to see the hydralisk returned to tier one like BW as many here have suggested and a huge blanket nerf to the queen.
Creep should also be roughly 33% slower spread than it is now, or apply one of the thousand suggestions mentioned in this thread.
I wonder if anyone in the community balance team from blizzard reads these suggestions though.
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Would making hydras hatch tech be that big a deal? Maybe require a roach Warren before Den.
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On May 25 2022 01:30 Jerubaal wrote:
Would making hydras hatch tech be that big a deal? Maybe require a roach Warren before Den.
Supposed patch arrived, and supposed something like this happened. I would be really disappointed, i mean why do you have to get roach before hydralisks and why not the opposite, hydralisks before roach ?
The philosophy of Zerg units is to get really specific units, good for one things but kind of bad in other segments/roles.
Supposed this patch arrived, i would feel appealing if Zerg can come back with three base units. I would be pleased to see hydralisks instead of queens, because they could bring a ton of fresh games.
Actually i was thinking of making some units good outside creep (like hydralisks with their big tail), roachs have a consistent place even if their role and caracteristic could be tweaked a little bit. Finally Zerglings and banelings are quite strong so this kind of patch should also study Marines/Medivacs against Banelings AND Marines/Medivacs against Hydralisks.
So simpliest way often the best :
- Marines little beefy, stimpack nerf a little bit
- Banelings beefy, 1 supply cost
- Zerglings no apparent changes
- Roachs, tunnel claws pass under cliff
- Hydralisks 1 supply cost, +1 range, 75m 25g, globally, little less hp and damage, reduce a little bit his collision box,
and actually which is complicated but reasonnable a spell poison ability against healing spells (specially medivacs ofc)
I know this is pretty basic study, i could be glad to read a professionnal opinion on this side of the game.
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You realize that making Roach Warren the requirement instead of Lair saves the Zerg 100 gas and 18 seconds? This would be a pretty big buff.
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EPT
