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On March 28 2022 18:24 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2022 11:48 Jerubaal wrote:
Can I ask why Warpgate keeps coming up? Is it a production complaint (too fast or too easy)? Or is it a tactic complaint about the warp-in capability? I feel like this is an argument that belongs in the WoL era when people thought scouting three places for pylons was difficult. The fundamental problem with Warpgate is that it allows resources to be translated into army instantly, anywhere on the map, with no tradeoff. That breaks a lot of interactions that make RTS interesting. The period of time between when you make an investment and when that investment pays off is very important to how this kind of game works. So is the fact that that period of time generally grows as you get further from your production facilities - that's one of the big factors that creates what we call "defender's advantage." If you're in my base, and we both spend 1000 resources on reinforcements, mine are going to get to spend a minute or two fighting before yours arrive. Warpgate tosses that entire concept out the window. One of the results is that we ended up with much weaker Gateway units than we could have had without Warpgate. You just can't have units as scary as BroodWar Gateway units if they can be teleported directly into battle, which I think is a shame. It also robs PvX games of a lot of classic StarCraft interactions around managing rally points and reinforcement paths. So it's really not about needing to scout for pylons or feeling like the Protoss player is getting away with something that's too easy. It's that breaking this really basic concept of RTS - you pay money now, you get a unit later, then that unit has to make its way to where it is needed - has a ton of unavoidable knock-on effects that overall make the game a poorer experience.
At this point discussing any change to warpgate in sc2 is pointless. Its just to much of an overhaul to fix how it works and all the knock on affects it has on protoss's design and how they function. I think we should just hope its not in sc3, if we ever get an sc3.
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1. Remove creep drop on nydus opening
2. Drop overlords can't drop creep anymore
This may actually weaken quen attacks as (I believe) previously intended.
3. Buff or add an upgrade for one of the protoss gateway units to offer protoss a few more options aside from AoE.
Ideas:
a) archon speed buff -> just general usefulness buff but also very good vs muta (I really think this should be tried)
b) archon range upgrade (at templar archive or dark shrine or at forge but requires the aforementioned) -> better in big army battles and vs roaches
c) stalker +2 attack upgrade scaling (vs all) - could be in exchange for 10 HP or similar -> stalker much better late game and when doing forge builds
d) zealot or adept +1 shield armor, -> better vs zergling/marine especially on defense with shield batteries
e) adept upgrade that allows glaives to punch through an enemy and hit a second one if they behind the first and/or very close (with full damage or close to full damage) - the upgrade could be at the robotics facility or the dark shrine so that it is mostly available late game -> makes adepts viable against clumps of light units, later in the game
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infestors should be able to cast microbial shroud while burrowed, its could help a bad spell become a tad bit better
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and for the love of god fix matchmaking in teamplay... if full premade masters teams are matching with golds and silvers theres a big problem
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On March 26 2022 01:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2022 01:02 LTCM wrote:
My wish list for the past few years has been this:
Queen builds from spawning pool
Banes do -50% damage to shields
Transfuse removed
Vipers cannot abduct massive
Enhanced emp upgrade removed
You're welcome, game is now balanced Removing transfuse basically breaks the game so I dunno where you’re getting that from.
I actually think it would be a healthy change for the game.
Or a 1 queen per hatchery limit and make all of their abilities cost 5 less energy. Give them a significantly buffed separate anti air attack, bonus health regeneration, and revert all of the creep tumor nerfs.
I don't think the current zerg paradigm is what was envisioned.
I haven't kept up with any meta, strats, or tournaments and I think I can count the amount of games of sc2 I've played in the past five years on my fingers and zerg was the only race that I was able to quickly match GMs on. I'll gladly attest that is solely because of the queen.
Not needing to know any intricate timings or even 'what' is coming because you have a blanket cover for every strategy is a little broken in comparison to how the rest of the game functions.
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please change the animation of the phenix lifting objects…
I can’t see anything with that animation
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I haven't kept up with any meta, strats, or tournaments and I think I can count the amount of games of sc2 I've played in the past five years on my fingers
No offense intended but, forgive me if I don't take huge stock into your opinions lol that's like saying you haven't been in the stock market game for 5 years but here's my uninformed opinion on the matter.
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On May 11 2022 20:00 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +I haven't kept up with any meta, strats, or tournaments and I think I can count the amount of games of sc2 I've played in the past five years on my fingers No offense intended but, forgive me if I don't take huge stock into your opinions lol that's like saying you haven't been in the stock market game for 5 years but here's my uninformed opinion on the matter.
I mean it's pretty clear he has no idea what he's talking about. Almost everything he said was wrong
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Zerg:
- Vipers can't abduct heroic unit (mothership) and abduct pull on massive units decreases by 50%
- Ravager corrosive bile range reduced from 9 to 8, cooldown increases from 7 to 9 seconds, morph time from roach increases from 8.5 seconds to 12.5 seconds
- Creep tumor expands 25% slower and regresses 25% faster
Terran:
- Raven speed increases from 4.13 to 4.83
- Reapers KD9 grenade deals 15 damage instead of 5, cooldown increases from 14 to 29 seconds
(=> reapers change is not really for balance purpose, but just for fun)
Protoss:
- Archon speed increases from 3.94 to 4.44
- Recall cooldown decreased from 4 seconds to 3
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Northern Ireland25977 Posts
On May 11 2022 18:04 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2022 01:11 WombaT wrote:On March 26 2022 01:02 LTCM wrote:
My wish list for the past few years has been this:
Queen builds from spawning pool
Banes do -50% damage to shields
Transfuse removed
Vipers cannot abduct massive
Enhanced emp upgrade removed
You're welcome, game is now balanced Removing transfuse basically breaks the game so I dunno where you’re getting that from. I actually think it would be a healthy change for the game. Or a 1 queen per hatchery limit and make all of their abilities cost 5 less energy. Give them a significantly buffed separate anti air attack, bonus health regeneration, and revert all of the creep tumor nerfs. I don't think the current zerg paradigm is what was envisioned. I haven't kept up with any meta, strats, or tournaments and I think I can count the amount of games of sc2 I've played in the past five years on my fingers and zerg was the only race that I was able to quickly match GMs on. I'll gladly attest that is solely because of the queen. Not needing to know any intricate timings or even 'what' is coming because you have a blanket cover for every strategy is a little broken in comparison to how the rest of the game functions.
This is correct, and some good ideas.
I was responding to someone who said removing transfuse without making other changes and the game is ‘fixed’
Which is utter nonsense. I’d love to see wholesale changes to really make the Queen such a catch-all crutch, but you can’t simply nerf the Queen hugely and the game will be ‘balanced’ if you do nothing else, which was the point I was making.
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On May 11 2022 23:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2022 18:04 Agh wrote:On March 26 2022 01:11 WombaT wrote:On March 26 2022 01:02 LTCM wrote:
My wish list for the past few years has been this:
Queen builds from spawning pool
Banes do -50% damage to shields
Transfuse removed
Vipers cannot abduct massive
Enhanced emp upgrade removed
You're welcome, game is now balanced Removing transfuse basically breaks the game so I dunno where you’re getting that from. I actually think it would be a healthy change for the game. Or a 1 queen per hatchery limit and make all of their abilities cost 5 less energy. Give them a significantly buffed separate anti air attack, bonus health regeneration, and revert all of the creep tumor nerfs. I don't think the current zerg paradigm is what was envisioned. I haven't kept up with any meta, strats, or tournaments and I think I can count the amount of games of sc2 I've played in the past five years on my fingers and zerg was the only race that I was able to quickly match GMs on. I'll gladly attest that is solely because of the queen. Not needing to know any intricate timings or even 'what' is coming because you have a blanket cover for every strategy is a little broken in comparison to how the rest of the game functions. This is correct, and some good ideas. I was responding to someone who said removing transfuse without making other changes and the game is ‘fixed’ Which is utter nonsense. I’d love to see wholesale changes to really make the Queen such a catch-all crutch, but you can’t simply nerf the Queen hugely and the game will be ‘balanced’ if you do nothing else, which was the point I was making.
Interesting, because I'd argue that just partially reversing the range buffs of the Queen could already be enough to bring the unit back in line. Requiring the Zerg to actually invest into a specialised response according to his/her scouting intel would not necessarily be more expensive as Queens are still costly, but it would punish players that just build more Queens regardless, as they're not as strong in defending a specific unit composition in a timing attack on their own.
Less range could force less favorable positioning/heavier commitment to cover certain angles, building something else than a Queen would also slightly reduce creep spread (which arguably would still be fine IMO as players have gotten so good at it over the years) and forcing other races into certain tech responses is common and this would also suit the "fantasy" of Zerg being the reactionary race.
Of course there are probably lots of possibilities to explore, but since I'm not expecting anything from Blizzard these days, a simple range reduction could already do wonders without having to require additional effort.
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On May 10 2022 12:21 washikie wrote:
[...]
3. Creep tumors visible, maybe way to huge of a nerf but I think this would allow Terran to actually fight creep spread I think a big issue in the matchup is that a tumor is 25 energy on a spamable unit where a scan is 50 on a command center, even if Terran consistently clear creep unless they have map control right up to the Zergs creep there is nothing they can do to actually halt the spread. In the current meta Zerg can make so much liing bane queen that it’s not really possible for terrran to have control outside of thier push timing as a result the Zerg will always get to push the creep forward. Letting Terran just clear creep without scan both gives Terran a bit more economy with mules and allows them to hit and run creep tumors more effectively as units are always a threat to creep.
[...]
It's not like removing creep is cheap for the Protoss either, is it? Detection needs either a probe or an Oracle's Revelation ability, and those are far from being free.
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On May 12 2022 22:01 notfge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2022 12:21 washikie wrote:
[...]
3. Creep tumors visible, maybe way to huge of a nerf but I think this would allow Terran to actually fight creep spread I think a big issue in the matchup is that a tumor is 25 energy on a spamable unit where a scan is 50 on a command center, even if Terran consistently clear creep unless they have map control right up to the Zergs creep there is nothing they can do to actually halt the spread. In the current meta Zerg can make so much liing bane queen that it’s not really possible for terrran to have control outside of thier push timing as a result the Zerg will always get to push the creep forward. Letting Terran just clear creep without scan both gives Terran a bit more economy with mules and allows them to hit and run creep tumors more effectively as units are always a threat to creep.
[...]
It's not like removing creep is cheap for the Protoss either, is it? Detection needs either a probe or an Oracle's Revelation ability, and those are far from being free.
Probes with detection is a change I could get behind.
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On May 12 2022 22:19 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2022 22:01 notfge wrote:On May 10 2022 12:21 washikie wrote:
[...]
3. Creep tumors visible, maybe way to huge of a nerf but I think this would allow Terran to actually fight creep spread I think a big issue in the matchup is that a tumor is 25 energy on a spamable unit where a scan is 50 on a command center, even if Terran consistently clear creep unless they have map control right up to the Zergs creep there is nothing they can do to actually halt the spread. In the current meta Zerg can make so much liing bane queen that it’s not really possible for terrran to have control outside of thier push timing as a result the Zerg will always get to push the creep forward. Letting Terran just clear creep without scan both gives Terran a bit more economy with mules and allows them to hit and run creep tumors more effectively as units are always a threat to creep.
[...]
It's not like removing creep is cheap for the Protoss either, is it? Detection needs either a probe or an Oracle's Revelation ability, and those are far from being free. Probes with detection is a change I could get behind.
He meant the flying probe.
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On May 12 2022 23:05 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2022 22:19 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On May 12 2022 22:01 notfge wrote:On May 10 2022 12:21 washikie wrote:
[...]
3. Creep tumors visible, maybe way to huge of a nerf but I think this would allow Terran to actually fight creep spread I think a big issue in the matchup is that a tumor is 25 energy on a spamable unit where a scan is 50 on a command center, even if Terran consistently clear creep unless they have map control right up to the Zergs creep there is nothing they can do to actually halt the spread. In the current meta Zerg can make so much liing bane queen that it’s not really possible for terrran to have control outside of thier push timing as a result the Zerg will always get to push the creep forward. Letting Terran just clear creep without scan both gives Terran a bit more economy with mules and allows them to hit and run creep tumors more effectively as units are always a threat to creep.
[...]
It's not like removing creep is cheap for the Protoss either, is it? Detection needs either a probe or an Oracle's Revelation ability, and those are far from being free. Probes with detection is a change I could get behind. He meant the flying probe.
Another change I'd support.
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On May 12 2022 22:19 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
Probes with detection is a change I could get behind.
Oops... I meant observer of course. Sorry...
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I'm really not buying that Protoss doesn't have the tools to deal with creep. Observers aren't free, but they offer a LOT for what they cost. Oracles are something that should be out anyways with a Stargate opener, its just a matter of controlling them after that. If there's a creep problem in ZvP, its because Protoss isn't (or can't) move out to clear it comfortably. With new, more active, styles of Protoss play coming back it'll be interesting to see how things develop.
On the Terran side, I'd be interested to see some tuning of scans to help active Terrans clear creep more efficiently- I'm thinking a change similar to what Oracles received a while back. Cut the effectiveness of scans, but make it cost less energy.
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I like the creep suggestions.
Perhaps tumors being visible all the time seems a bit much, maybe the 'burrow' timeout could be extended so that really active players can snipe them with basic units?
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On May 13 2022 03:22 Draddition wrote:
I'm really not buying that Protoss doesn't have the tools to deal with creep. Observers aren't free, but they offer a LOT for what they cost. Oracles are something that should be out anyways with a Stargate opener, its just a matter of controlling them after that. If there's a creep problem in ZvP, its because Protoss isn't (or can't) move out to clear it comfortably. With new, more active, styles of Protoss play coming back it'll be interesting to see how things develop.
On the Terran side, I'd be interested to see some tuning of scans to help active Terrans clear creep more efficiently- I'm thinking a change similar to what Oracles received a while back. Cut the effectiveness of scans, but make it cost less energy.
It's not that P (or T for that matter) "don't have the tools". It's that creep essentially gives P and T an "objective" with the only upside being avoiding giving Z a pretty good advantage.
From the P point of view, this puts units that have to go clear creep at risk. You may not have wanted to warp in those units, or those could have been units warped in to other places. Or if you move your whole army out, you leave your bases open to attack.
Terran can actually deal with this wonderfully because they can send out one medivac and boop and scoot, but obviously scan has a high price.
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The actual reason of the invisibility of tumors comes from the impossibility of build something in the fog of war.
Because this is not how the game has been made for, i mean maybe it s a good decision to balance the awareness of the game. This kind of game changing decision could make sense in a patch, just because it hasn t been though like that.
The only thing to do is to create an "eye spell" which gives 1 vision square cell by cell until a line collision with a possible building. If no collision occurs, tumor is created where the player decided.
Simple
I think the problem at high level is mostly due to vision than the capacity of being invisible. Now as many members here, i approved Protoss is lacking of a fast unit like hellions even if these ones haven t a huge potential overall.
And simplier, only Queens can make tumors, with a cooldown to avoid over-using.
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EPT
