On October 16 2022 12:28 OmniSkeptic wrote: + While guardian shield is active, sentries are now detectors. + Buff Sentry sight range by 1 (to bring it in line with detection range of observers and cannons). - Observers now constantly make an audible chime (like the one they used to have while deployed).
This helps the toss by making detection more consistently available, but also helps opponents by making it easier to know if their army/ drop has been spotted instead of having to coin flip and pray they didn't pass an observer.
Honestly, I'd even just take a "Observers that are moving or are deployed make a chime" and allow good non-f2ing toss players to intentionally keep them not moving in the less-ranged mode for maximum benefit.
-Nerf creep tumor sight range by 2.
Right now they can see off creep, which is stupid. We can ever-so-slightly nerf lategame creep without nerfing early game creep by reducing sight range, since zergs have the APM early game to use a queen to keep the creep able to spread max distance
Honestly love the sentry change, I've been an advocate for Sentry buffs for awhile, it used to be an essential core GW unit that was made much weaker when the Ravager was introduced to the game.
I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
Somehow Carrier control should be made more APM heavy. Like control Interceptors or make it a "spell" that needs to targeted or sth so Toss players can not just F2 - A and go for a smoke and come back to a victory screen 10mins later
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
Somehow Carrier control should be made more APM heavy. Like control Interceptors or make it a "spell" that needs to targeted or sth so Toss players can not just F2 - A and go for a smoke and come back to a victory screen 10mins later
Honestly man, I want all the units to be viable and all that but I think the best multiplayer games are the ones where capital ships don't become the focus. The Brood Lord, BC, Carrier, Tempest, they all just suck to watch and play against. Free units is gimmicky, interceptor ez mode carrier is gimmicky, and BC blink is gimmicky.
That's why I think a targeted ZvT creep nerf would really serve the game well at the pro level, the mid game needs to be boosted. ZvT has become the new ZvP but the old ZvP where P just camps all game.
I think overall game is pretty balanced but maybe revert some questionable balance changes that seem to create more problems they solve.
Changes to revert:
Forge research time increase - How was forge imbalanced in the first place?
Observer move speed reduced - This change makes no sense as I recently watched Zoun vs Cure and Cure scanned Zoun's observer twice failed to kill it. there will always be a situation where a flying unit goes just out of range and survives whether its overlord or medivac.
Adept build time increased 3 seconds in gateway - What balance problem did this solve? vs Z most pros don't even bother shading the adept in nowadays since 1 queen and 2 lings should shut down the shade without losing a drone. vs Terran it seems to have created a balance problem where Terran can proxy the first rax and have a reaper out uncontested and be guaranteed at least 1 or more probes even if Protoss goes for earliest possible adept/stalker. Cure did this to Zoun multiple times and it didn't look very balanced.
I'm sure there are more changes from other races but since I happen to play protoss those stand out to me as changes that either don't make sense or actually create balance issues where there were none.
On October 26 2022 20:34 karnaahai wrote: Does anyone remember in WoL beta when each race had like a "macro" unit that basically was defensive? Like a hero. Zerg could only make 1 queen, etc. Thought that was kind of cool.
On October 26 2022 20:34 karnaahai wrote: Does anyone remember in WoL beta when each race had like a "macro" unit that basically was defensive? Like a hero. Zerg could only make 1 queen, etc. Thought that was kind of cool.
On October 25 2022 14:20 Rain_fan wrote: I think overall game is pretty balanced but maybe revert some questionable balance changes that seem to create more problems they solve.
Changes to revert:
Forge research time increase - How was forge imbalanced in the first place?
Observer move speed reduced - This change makes no sense as I recently watched Zoun vs Cure and Cure scanned Zoun's observer twice failed to kill it. there will always be a situation where a flying unit goes just out of range and survives whether its overlord or medivac.
Adept build time increased 3 seconds in gateway - What balance problem did this solve? vs Z most pros don't even bother shading the adept in nowadays since 1 queen and 2 lings should shut down the shade without losing a drone. vs Terran it seems to have created a balance problem where Terran can proxy the first rax and have a reaper out uncontested and be guaranteed at least 1 or more probes even if Protoss goes for earliest possible adept/stalker. Cure did this to Zoun multiple times and it didn't look very balanced.
I'm sure there are more changes from other races but since I happen to play protoss those stand out to me as changes that either don't make sense or actually create balance issues where there were none.
I miss Shield Battery rushes
I also think the Queen nerfs except range nerf, were bad. I find the Creep Tumour not being able to cancel was a weird change. Because if you're telling me they're not connected, then surely, when killing a tumour, it shouldn't also kill the one that it's creating.
For Terran I would want them to be able to place a Barracks, without the need for a Depot, though this one is arguably huge.
On October 17 2022 20:38 ejozl wrote: Creep Tumour vision should only be reduced by 1. Else they can't spread by themselves and you'd need to have units in place to get the full range.
...did you just not read the explanation? Nerfing by two so you can't spread the full range is exactly the point. It nerfs lategame creep without nerfing early game creep because in the earlygame you always have units like queens, lings, and overlords near the initial tumors which can give you vision. However, it slows down the lategame because you're just spreading creep in random areas that don't have units nearby.
On October 17 2022 20:38 ejozl wrote: Creep Tumour vision should only be reduced by 1. Else they can't spread by themselves and you'd need to have units in place to get the full range.
...did you just not read the explanation? Nerfing by two so you can't spread the full range is exactly the point. It nerfs lategame creep without nerfing early game creep because in the earlygame you always have units like queens, lings, and overlords near the initial tumors which can give you vision. However, it slows down the lategame because you're just spreading creep in random areas that don't have units nearby.
In theory it could works out but I m not sure pro players take time to spread their tumors at maximum range in late game.....
I proposed 3 years ago (reduction from 10 to 7 for example). But if a tweak can happen i m in. The idea of reducing vision by 2 (or 3?) is good because player ability in spreading creep would be more efficient depending how good they are. It will nerf Serral, Reynor or Dark insane creep ability and allow mid tiers players like Lambo to be close from the top despite a slower APM.
On October 17 2022 20:38 ejozl wrote: Creep Tumour vision should only be reduced by 1. Else they can't spread by themselves and you'd need to have units in place to get the full range.
...did you just not read the explanation? Nerfing by two so you can't spread the full range is exactly the point. It nerfs lategame creep without nerfing early game creep because in the earlygame you always have units like queens, lings, and overlords near the initial tumors which can give you vision. However, it slows down the lategame because you're just spreading creep in random areas that don't have units nearby.
Okay. But that I just disagree with. It's just unecessary hassle that has the minimum of change. Not to mention that it's obscure, so newbies would probably not even know they're getting 'cheated' by 1 range.
In that case I'd rather go overboard and nerf it's vision to 4, or 1 and have buffs elsewhere to compensate.
On October 17 2022 20:38 ejozl wrote: Creep Tumour vision should only be reduced by 1. Else they can't spread by themselves and you'd need to have units in place to get the full range.
...did you just not read the explanation? Nerfing by two so you can't spread the full range is exactly the point. It nerfs lategame creep without nerfing early game creep because in the earlygame you always have units like queens, lings, and overlords near the initial tumors which can give you vision. However, it slows down the lategame because you're just spreading creep in random areas that don't have units nearby.
Okay. But that I just disagree with. It's just unecessary hassle that has the minimum of change. Not to mention that it's obscure, so newbies would probably not even know they're getting 'cheated' by 1 range.
In that case I'd rather go overboard and nerf it's vision to 4, or 1 and have buffs elsewhere to compensate.
I m really curious on how you could compensate without imbalancing match up against Protoss or Terran. I mean, tweak by 3 the vision of creep (as you can see in the picture above) is huge nerf just because some units could attack tumors without been spotted immediately. Set 1 or 4 to the radius vision of tumors will result in a lack of design, of course decreasing from 10 to 9 is not game changing.
Actually the creep feature is what makes an insane difference between pro players and other players, and nerf this feature will affect globally the game and i don t think it s necessary to compensate elsewhere (considering a drastic case from 10 to 4). Imagine at top level, just a little bit reduction from 10 to 7 will delay the reaction of zerg opponent by one seconds on EACH attacks approximatively
I think 8 is the maximum nerf from a design persepective, Zerg can continue to spawn tumors without so much constraint and attackers can benefit from a little bit more fog of war
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree.
Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games.
The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen.
And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
Somehow Carrier control should be made more APM heavy. Like control Interceptors or make it a "spell" that needs to targeted or sth so Toss players can not just F2 - A and go for a smoke and come back to a victory screen 10mins later
Interceptors can already be controlled separately from the Carrier by abusing their "leash range".
There is a massive difference in efficacy between target-fired Interceptors that swarm into a fight by abusing their "leash range" and improperly targeted Interceptors that trickle into a fight from a-moved Carriers.
On October 17 2022 20:38 ejozl wrote: Creep Tumour vision should only be reduced by 1. Else they can't spread by themselves and you'd need to have units in place to get the full range.
...did you just not read the explanation? Nerfing by two so you can't spread the full range is exactly the point. It nerfs lategame creep without nerfing early game creep because in the earlygame you always have units like queens, lings, and overlords near the initial tumors which can give you vision. However, it slows down the lategame because you're just spreading creep in random areas that don't have units nearby.
Okay. But that I just disagree with. It's just unecessary hassle that has the minimum of change. Not to mention that it's obscure, so newbies would probably not even know they're getting 'cheated' by 1 range.
In that case I'd rather go overboard and nerf it's vision to 4, or 1 and have buffs elsewhere to compensate.
I m really curious on how you could compensate without imbalancing match up against Protoss or Terran. I mean, tweak by 3 the vision of creep (as you can see in the picture above) is huge nerf just because some units could attack tumors without been spotted immediately. Set 1 or 4 to the radius vision of tumors will result in a lack of design, of course decreasing from 10 to 9 is not game changing.
Actually the creep feature is what makes an insane difference between pro players and other players, and nerf this feature will affect globally the game and i don t think it s necessary to compensate elsewhere (considering a drastic case from 10 to 4). Imagine at top level, just a little bit reduction from 10 to 7 will delay the reaction of zerg opponent by one seconds on EACH attacks approximatively
I think 8 is the maximum nerf from a design persepective, Zerg can continue to spawn tumors without so much constraint and attackers can benefit from a little bit more fog of war
Oh I'm not denying that it's a huge nerf. But it's a better nerf.
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
do you think this would have that much impact on pro lvl? They play on efficient, so they would still use Focus fire. example: if you only change the prio of viking/ corruptor vs interceptors/carrier.
On October 23 2022 18:11 TequilaMockingbird wrote: I know that this seems to be only a problem in the lower leagues (say master 3 and below ?) but I still think carriers are too strong in PvZ. I know they have been tweaked, Zergs got microbial shroud and so on but somehow sitting on top of batteries and cannons and going straight to carriers (maybe with a hand full of Voids or some light adapt pressure before) is somehow still a thing. Requires no more than 70 apm and Zerg needs to bend over backwards and rip out an arm to maybe end up on even footing. Just no fun when you scout what the Protoss is doing and know you are in for 40 min of dumb corruptor+viper vs skytoss dance (I will not even call it "a macro game") where you maaaaaaaybe manage to land your dream fungal + parasitic combo, otherwise you are screwed. And not it is not equally hard for toss to micro, you can basically do it with only your mouse while using the other hand to pick your nose. Yes I am frustrated, maybe it is just me and I am too bad at the game but I strongly hate this unit comp, have hated it in Beta and will still hate when they make Sc3 in 25 years. Thanks for reading my ramblings, sorry for bad formatting I am angry.
Pretty strong agree. Skytoss vs Zerg is really oppressive if you don't have absolutely toptier control - most of the times I've stopped laddering for a while have been skytoss PvZ games. The turtle is hard to break, and the army nearly controls itself. It's stupid.
Lategame TvP is also quite rough, but at least ghosts and libs can sometimes get the `lol deleted' effect if the protoss misplays. Carriers are too tanky for that to really happen. And even then... recall is a thing. In case you do happen to actually pull off the engage.
I agree, but the issue is that you can't nerf Skytoss because SkyZerg is sooo soo ridiculously strong at the top level.
Anything below the pro level yes I agree Skytoss is low APM and very difficult to counter, but at the pro level Zergs like Dark/Reynor/Serral just make Skytoss look silly.
do you think this would have that much impact on pro lvl? They play on efficient, so they would still use Focus fire. example: if you only change the prio of viking/ corruptor vs interceptors/carrier.
Do you agree on the fact that Protoss are playing skytoss because of their lack of consistent army ground units against air ? Stalkers, Archon or HT aren t good enought against Broodlords/Corrupter/Infestators ? What if Protoss would get an hoverboard with a Cyclone design unit in his army ? (Even if it wont happen). It aims to replace the tempest unit
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/2ZfSsLk/sc2-vision.jpg)
