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Dominican Republic613 Posts
On September 29 2022 23:24 ejozl wrote:
Void Rays aren't a menace in PvZ, so forcing Zergs to only fight behind Spores, if Toss was to open Voids, isn't the most problematic thing. What's bigger is that Stalkers would be even stronger and the Marauder Hellbat push, which is already super strong, would get even stronger.
Since the start I didn't agree on nerfing Queens. However, many small tweaks you do to the Queen, it doesn't change the fact that Zergs will use Queens to defend things that are undefendable by Lings, Roaches and Banelings. Then a nerf to the Queen is simply a nerf to Zerg itself. My approach would be the opposite, give back some power to the Queen, but make Queens more costly to mass. This can be done by increasing the Supply, but also by nerfing Creep. (Tumors cannot spread/Tumor cost increased to 50.) With such a strong nerf, I would allow Queen to spawn with 50 energy and have the old Transfuse.
Here is my aproach
Queen new cost
Cost: Min/200 Gas/25 Sec/40 Supply/3
This avoid zerg to mass queens, this allows queens to be delayed a bit since it cost gas
it takes a little longer to build
this is in line to any other unit in the game that cost gas/usefulness ratio.
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Now you mention it it's very interesting Queen doesn't cost gas, even Mothership Core did right?
Queen is only unit that uses spells and is mineral only.
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On September 30 2022 02:42 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Now you mention it it's very interesting Queen doesn't cost gas, even Mothership Core did right?
Queen is only unit that uses spells and is mineral only.
Units that cost only minerals:
- Workers (probes, drones, SCV)
- Basic combat units (zealots, zerglings, marines)
- Additional units (warp prism, overlord (does it really count?), queen, hellion/hellbat)
The warp field and cargo properties of a warp prism could count as spells, as could stim on marines, the charge of zealots and creep drop from overlords. Queens are the only gasless unit with energy.
Thor, corruptor and BC used to have energy but feedback shut them down in an uninteresting way. Thor lost its ability and got two anti air modes instead while corruptor and BC got a cooldown instead of energy. Corruptor also got a different ability. It used to be a percentage debuff on damage resistance of a single target.
Having energy is not a good thing. Cooldowns with charges are better than energy because both HT and ghosts can remove energy.
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- I hope they decrease the number of objects/units/buildings you can bind to a hotkey (which is currently unlimited) so that it's much harder to control and manage deathballs
- Or bring the glitchy movements and unit collisions like in broodwar so that you will always be aware of where you are putting your units; and to be more attentive to your units' pathing
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On September 30 2022 02:21 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2022 23:24 ejozl wrote:
Void Rays aren't a menace in PvZ, so forcing Zergs to only fight behind Spores, if Toss was to open Voids, isn't the most problematic thing. What's bigger is that Stalkers would be even stronger and the Marauder Hellbat push, which is already super strong, would get even stronger.
Since the start I didn't agree on nerfing Queens. However, many small tweaks you do to the Queen, it doesn't change the fact that Zergs will use Queens to defend things that are undefendable by Lings, Roaches and Banelings. Then a nerf to the Queen is simply a nerf to Zerg itself. My approach would be the opposite, give back some power to the Queen, but make Queens more costly to mass. This can be done by increasing the Supply, but also by nerfing Creep. (Tumors cannot spread/Tumor cost increased to 50.) With such a strong nerf, I would allow Queen to spawn with 50 energy and have the old Transfuse. Here is my aproach Queen new cost
Cost: Min/200 Gas/25 Sec/40 Supply/3This avoid zerg to mass queens, this allows queens to be delayed a bit since it cost gas it takes a little longer to build this is in line to any other unit in the game that cost gas/usefulness ratio.
The price of queens is actually the reason of all this noise, but even if i think it could be the good direction this doesn t solve completely problems without a second tweak concerning tumors ability or units that need to be involved against creep spreading (i.e base units protoss, stalkers, adepts, zealots,..). Maybe Protoss could be ready soon for killing tumors if observator hallucination of sentry could benefit from his ability to see invisibility (even if it s an hallucination)
I m sure that Blizzard do a good job with creep in TvZ but i m thinking PvZ is going more often fast to the end game.. Isn t it ? Does it mean that Protoss need more tools ? idk
PS : then we all agree on the fact Queens are cheap (gas)
Couldn t we imagine that Blizzard first think to adepts for make back and forth around the creep border (like hellions) so their first role was made in order to push creep back ? (instead of harassement). If it s the case, this is the direction. Then in studying adepts, we can say Adepts are really light-counter oriented and their damage could be balanced to be stronger against heavy armored units.
Adepts tweak :
Glaive cannon from 10+12 against light armor to 14 + 8
New ability : mini-scan
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/CTp48Ii.jpg)
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many interesting ideas for the queen, but what do you do next?
Toss complains that they always "have" to play SG(?). But if queen is weakened, won't toss go more to SG to take exploit it?
Another point is that it is said: Zerg should build units to defend (btw Queen is a unit).
If you compare income and worker count in PvZ, you often see that it is even.
If queens cost more gas/minerals, thus less minerals available for other things, doesn't that make the "standard" zerg even more passive?
for creep, do you want it to spread more slowly or be removed more easily?
it is zerg def tool.
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A reasonable queen nerf.
I see two small nerfes that are unlikely to break any match-up.
- Increase the cooldown for creep growth from 11 to 15 seconds.
- Increase the queen's supply cost from 2 to 3.
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Queens are the only mobile anti air the Zerg has in the early parts of the game. Sure, spore crawlers can crawl to new positions. The downside being that they lose the detection for banshees, and every flying combat unit have time to fly away. Spores are at best a deterrent as mobile anti air.
Oracles, banshees, battlecryisers, void rays... they all need to be hunted down. Spores are not enough. The Zerg needs something to handle early air units.
Maybe the answer is to divide up the jobs of the Queen. They are creep spreaders, healers, larvae injectors, mobile AA, bulky ground units, and ranged early game unit. The macro mechanics (tumor and inject) is one part. Mobile AA is another. Bulky ground unit with healing is a debatable third.
A shuffling of abilities and roles could be made.
Maybe shift the bulkyness and ranged ground away from queens and have the Zerg make roaches and spine crawlers. Spines aren't used much in the early game. A spine crawler cost 1 larva, 150 minerals and 0 supply while a queen cost 0 larvae, 150 minerals and 2 supply. Pretty similar.
Removing or heavily reduce the damage of the queen's anti ground attack is one way to go.
Another thing could be to have the queen morph after being made, chosing a path to go. More health and transfuse ability, getting anti air, getting macro abilities could be three choices. Call one a warden, the second a spitter and the third a queen, all morphing from a cerebrate defender. All names are just place holders.
Zergs needs the queen for anti air. If the anti air is changed, then every match up will just be rush for air in a vZ match.
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Bisutopia19211 Posts
On October 01 2022 05:50 Drfilip wrote:
Queens are the only mobile anti air the Zerg has in the early parts of the game. Sure, spore crawlers can crawl to new positions. The downside being that they lose the detection for banshees, and every flying combat unit have time to fly away. Spores are at best a deterrent as mobile anti air.
Oracles, banshees, battlecryisers, void rays... they all need to be hunted down. Spores are not enough. The Zerg needs something to handle early air units.
Maybe the answer is to divide up the jobs of the Queen. They are creep spreaders, healers, larvae injectors, mobile AA, bulky ground units, and ranged early game unit. The macro mechanics (tumor and inject) is one part. Mobile AA is another. Bulky ground unit with healing is a debatable third.
A shuffling of abilities and roles could be made.
Maybe shift the bulkyness and ranged ground away from queens and have the Zerg make roaches and spine crawlers. Spines aren't used much in the early game. A spine crawler cost 1 larva, 150 minerals and 0 supply while a queen cost 0 larvae, 150 minerals and 2 supply. Pretty similar.
Removing or heavily reduce the damage of the queen's anti ground attack is one way to go.
Another thing could be to have the queen morph after being made, chosing a path to go. More health and transfuse ability, getting anti air, getting macro abilities could be three choices. Call one a warden, the second a spitter and the third a queen, all morphing from a cerebrate defender. All names are just place holders.
Zergs needs the queen for anti air. If the anti air is changed, then every match up will just be rush for air in a vZ match.
To solve early ground anti-air, I’d like hydras as a tier 1 unit with their upgrades requiring lair. This would allow some diverse strategies without being OP and allow queens to be nerfed.
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On October 01 2022 11:23 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2022 05:50 Drfilip wrote:
Queens are the only mobile anti air the Zerg has in the early parts of the game. Sure, spore crawlers can crawl to new positions. The downside being that they lose the detection for banshees, and every flying combat unit have time to fly away. Spores are at best a deterrent as mobile anti air.
Oracles, banshees, battlecryisers, void rays... they all need to be hunted down. Spores are not enough. The Zerg needs something to handle early air units.
Maybe the answer is to divide up the jobs of the Queen. They are creep spreaders, healers, larvae injectors, mobile AA, bulky ground units, and ranged early game unit. The macro mechanics (tumor and inject) is one part. Mobile AA is another. Bulky ground unit with healing is a debatable third.
A shuffling of abilities and roles could be made.
Maybe shift the bulkyness and ranged ground away from queens and have the Zerg make roaches and spine crawlers. Spines aren't used much in the early game. A spine crawler cost 1 larva, 150 minerals and 0 supply while a queen cost 0 larvae, 150 minerals and 2 supply. Pretty similar.
Removing or heavily reduce the damage of the queen's anti ground attack is one way to go.
Another thing could be to have the queen morph after being made, chosing a path to go. More health and transfuse ability, getting anti air, getting macro abilities could be three choices. Call one a warden, the second a spitter and the third a queen, all morphing from a cerebrate defender. All names are just place holders.
Zergs needs the queen for anti air. If the anti air is changed, then every match up will just be rush for air in a vZ match. To solve early ground anti-air, I’d like hydras as a tier 1 unit with their upgrades requiring lair. This would allow some diverse strategies without being OP and allow queens to be nerfed.
I think it's safe to say that this balance team doesn't have the stomach for ambitious redesigns, and that is why targeted nerfs to the Queen is the most talked about balance changes.
I would love for the Cyclone to fill a more Goliath esque role in the sense of a cheap, amassable anti-air fighter unit for mech comps, but at this point in the game, almost useless to even speculate.
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On October 01 2022 11:23 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2022 05:50 Drfilip wrote:
Queens are the only mobile anti air the Zerg has in the early parts of the game. Sure, spore crawlers can crawl to new positions. The downside being that they lose the detection for banshees, and every flying combat unit have time to fly away. Spores are at best a deterrent as mobile anti air.
Oracles, banshees, battlecryisers, void rays... they all need to be hunted down. Spores are not enough. The Zerg needs something to handle early air units.
Maybe the answer is to divide up the jobs of the Queen. They are creep spreaders, healers, larvae injectors, mobile AA, bulky ground units, and ranged early game unit. The macro mechanics (tumor and inject) is one part. Mobile AA is another. Bulky ground unit with healing is a debatable third.
A shuffling of abilities and roles could be made.
Maybe shift the bulkyness and ranged ground away from queens and have the Zerg make roaches and spine crawlers. Spines aren't used much in the early game. A spine crawler cost 1 larva, 150 minerals and 0 supply while a queen cost 0 larvae, 150 minerals and 2 supply. Pretty similar.
Removing or heavily reduce the damage of the queen's anti ground attack is one way to go.
Another thing could be to have the queen morph after being made, chosing a path to go. More health and transfuse ability, getting anti air, getting macro abilities could be three choices. Call one a warden, the second a spitter and the third a queen, all morphing from a cerebrate defender. All names are just place holders.
Zergs needs the queen for anti air. If the anti air is changed, then every match up will just be rush for air in a vZ match. To solve early ground anti-air, I’d like hydras as a tier 1 unit with their upgrades requiring lair. This would allow some diverse strategies without being OP and allow queens to be nerfed.
The level 2 Tech tree is too poor for removing Hydras without any others modifications. Then into which building are hydralisks created ? In the roach warren or in the spawnning pool ? It doesn t seem possible to add a new building just for a single unit also because the defence against flying unit is needed regardless of builds order.
I don t think Hydras T1 is a problem because i m sure the simple solution is the best. I suggest then to improve Lair Buildings/units. The first thing that comes into my mind is to get back Infested Terrans, they could be thrown to be able to strike siege tanks, or to cover an area without any risks for infestators.
If the problem of air Protoss is now solved, why did they remove Infested Terrans for ever ?
Wouldn t have been better to tweak the spell ? I know Microbial Shroud is used sometimes so the spell has to remain, but Infested Terrans is the most likable spell in term of zerg design. If Queens need microbial shroud, why not allow Queens to cast it as soon as Zerg has Lair Tech. And get back a tweaked IT ? And without speaking of IT what would you suggest in the case of Hydralisks being T1 unit ?
To resume, with at least two more additionnal smart modifications in the tech lair, we could get Hydras in Tier 1. (SH unit is still a problem as this unit is only created by mistake in pro scene) .
SH has to be fixed because they haven t a better synergy with other units while broodlords do and pro players prefer broodlords playstyle. There s a good reason for pros player to go Broodlords/broodlings and that s only because SH have been implemented after broodlords.
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Delete disruptor. Stupidest unit that has ever existed in RTS history.
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On October 01 2022 19:00 Luolis wrote:
Delete disruptor. Stupidest unit that has ever existed in RTS history.
I even heard pros complained about disruptors as the one scariest unit.
I m frustrated by this meta which one will never progress again until community (Team Liquid, Wardi, TakeTV, OG ...) ask to Blizzard a server mode patch which one is made to decide every two months by weighted votes (pros, casual, viewers...) a new tweak session.
Themes would be decide by a group of retired players and commentators then options are suggested to community which decides by a democratic way the next patch. Even if the ratio of applying a patch would be hard to reach, it could give new impetus to the game.
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would like to see tempest and carriers design change, to make them more microable and less a-movable, that means, less hp and armor and range and more speed and damage. For example i think Vikings and Tempest should have similar range and have around even trading, carrier should have less range than tempest and be more of anti ground unit.
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On October 01 2022 20:55 dph114 wrote:
would like to see tempest and carriers design change, to make them more microable and less a-movable, that means, less hp and armor and range and more speed and damage. For example i think Vikings and Tempest should have similar range and have around even trading, carrier should have less range than tempest and be more of anti ground unit.
I partially agree on the balance between vikings and tempest but it s true that tempests have a really low dps; that s said they are still built by pros so i wouldn t bet on a perfect balance against vikings.
In term of design, the idea of having bigger difference between tempest and carriers (in the case of tempest buff) makes sense. I m only a viewer (stopped since three years) and i can understand your toughts, unfortunely a tempest damage can t be increased so much without disturbing this balance between air toss units (i m not an expert). But I think your idea of a specialized carrier is revelant of the recent Air Toss problem just because i know interceptors are too versatile (by now it seems not to be fixed, at least at your level) Indeed, Interceptors do not more damage regardless of the armor (or like you suggest against ground units only, i.e that s revelant of the lack of strategy in air)
On October 01 2022 19:00 Luolis wrote:
Delete disruptor. Stupidest unit that has ever existed in RTS history.
Nova simple fix
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/1JbdmJq/damage-nova2.jpg)
Then it s funny that you speak about the stupidest unit in history of RTS.
In term of gameplay, there s no 'stun' spell in starcraft 2, and it s really a pity. With a drastic tweak, nova could stun his ennemies for few seconds and his damage decrease from 145 to something like 100 or 90 (ghost cap or hydras cap). The actual cap of roach is wired/strange. PS : for one shot Stalkers (PvP), damage can be decrease from 145+55 to 100+60 (with the stun ability) ---- with no stun ability, damage = 110 + 50 for also one shot Marines (50% area)
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Germany15880 Posts
On October 01 2022 20:55 dph114 wrote:
would like to see tempest and carriers design change, to make them more microable and less a-movable, that means, less hp and armor and range and more speed and damage. For example i think Vikings and Tempest should have similar range and have around even trading, carrier should have less range than tempest and be more of anti ground unit.
Carrier I understand but Tempests are nowhere near a-move units. Probably the air unit that depends the most on micro.
@Vision_: isn't fungal a stun spell?
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On October 01 2022 23:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2022 20:55 dph114 wrote:
would like to see tempest and carriers design change, to make them more microable and less a-movable, that means, less hp and armor and range and more speed and damage. For example i think Vikings and Tempest should have similar range and have around even trading, carrier should have less range than tempest and be more of anti ground unit. Carrier I understand but Tempests are nowhere near a-move units. Probably the air unit that depends the most on micro. @Vision_: isn't fungal a stun spell?
? No, because units are able to shoot
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On October 01 2022 23:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2022 20:55 dph114 wrote:
would like to see tempest and carriers design change, to make them more microable and less a-movable, that means, less hp and armor and range and more speed and damage. For example i think Vikings and Tempest should have similar range and have around even trading, carrier should have less range than tempest and be more of anti ground unit. Carrier I understand but Tempests are nowhere near a-move units. Probably the air unit that depends the most on micro. @Vision_: isn't fungal a stun spell?
it is called root, or currently it is only a slow.
Units can move and fight, mobility spells are blocked.
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Nerf creep by having a destroyed tumor reveal all other tumors in their range for 8 seconds (basically a dead tumor casts scan just for tumors). This makes clearing creep easier for the attacker and harder for the defender as you can't just snipe detection and the attacker has the ability to exponentially clear creep just like the zerg can spread it.
If queens need additional nerfs, reduce their attack (focus on them as damage sponges) and bring back the infested Terran as a t1.5 unit built (no more timed life) just like the queen (no larva, no mass production, one queue per hatch). Proposed stats same as original unit pre-removal, 150 mineral, 75 hp, 2 supply, get 2 per "egg" like zerglings, speed modifier just like the queen. Queens cannot be produced simultaneously with ITs, you pick support tank caster or slow moving ranged unit
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as a protoss fan, i absolutely hate disruptors too. So many games come down to "will this one nova land," and it's really frustrating.
I propose we just get rid of the disruptor, and bring back the khadaryan amulet upgrade for HT. As far as I can tell, in pvz, templar can more or less serve as decent multipurpose splash (not as ridiculous as disruptor, but still good), and in pvt the amulet upgrade will make ghosts a softer counter to the HT.
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EPT
