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On June 03 2022 04:11 dph114 wrote:
I dont understand why everyone here wants to buff hydra, which would break all the mu's simply because aoe is much weaker in sc2, for it would pretty much make every mu mass hydra, this would also mean some of the other races units might need to buffed mostly siege tank and gateway units for protoss imo.
This would destroy balance and meta of sc2 as we know it.
If you really wanted to make hydra t1 unit, imo reduce its range to something like 4, and make its anti-air range bigger. Make it dedicated aa and nerf queen antiair or heal? This would make hydra similar situation as reaper a dedicated early game unit. It wouldnt effect balance later in the game..
In a certain sense, the problem with the game is that it's TOO balanced. Blizzard patched out most of the powerful tech and timings from years past. Traditional effective harassment has been severely weakened. In this environment, it's should be no surprise that the most 'basic' race that does not rely on these things has thrived.
Basically, the balance philosophy for the past 12 years has been the inControl Artosis meme. The logic, in my opinion, of strengthening the hydra is that it defeats the 'outs' Zerg has been exploiting for the last 10 years or so .Yeah, we know, keeping vision of your natural was too much of a logical leap for any Zerg not named Serral, Rogue or Dark, so we had to nerf two protoss units. Now they can't say they don't have tools to defeat anything more interesting than a stalker.
Who knows, maybe in another 12 years, Terran will figure out they can use buildings to block melee units.
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Hello all,
I m looking at all relationships between ranged units attack and spells. For example, ghost EMP is exactly equal to upgraded lurker attack range. Viper abduct exactly equal to Vikings attack range, and so. If you know how this 'pro relationship' are based on, can you add it below ? Thanks,
 Spells
I think i got it :
Force Field
Feedback
Psionic storm
Steady Targetting
EMP
Interference Matrix
Anti-armor missile
Neural parasite (+2)
Fungal growth
If i tweak range of all units, i.e short and medium distance gain +1 and long distance gain +2 (except Lurker and Missile turret which only gain +1); i think i must tweak the list spell above by adding +1 range (except for Neural parasite).
I think if i m going for a "slower-damage-model", i have to tweak a little bit range of spells and attacks in order to replace Lurkers and Hydras (and maybe some others...)
ps : long life to infested terrans ! All comments are welcome
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remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed.
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EMP removed 🤣😂🤣😂
As a Protoss user I am for this one. I'd love to never lose a PvT again.
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Why not just make roaches shoot up, boom zerg AA problems are solved 
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On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed.
A player who doesn't play Zerg won a tournament. Time to nerf them, only Zerg wins thru skill because it has the most skilled players, other races win because they're imbalanced.
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On June 06 2022 06:06 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed. A player who doesn't play Zerg won a tournament. Time to nerf them, only Zerg wins thru skill because it has the most skilled players, other races win because they're imbalanced.
no idea what you mean. but ghost vs everything that has zerg in late. doesn't look good.
also interesting double moral: once mass caster are bad then again ok.
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On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed.
your the sake of your own sanity I hope this is a troll
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Northern Ireland26533 Posts
On June 06 2022 06:36 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2022 06:06 Morbidius wrote:On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed. A player who doesn't play Zerg won a tournament. Time to nerf them, only Zerg wins thru skill because it has the most skilled players, other races win because they're imbalanced. no idea what you mean. but ghost vs everything that has zerg in late. doesn't look good. also interesting double moral: once mass caster are bad then again ok.
Yes vipers can yoink any high value units, prevent clumps from dealing any damage etc etc.
Ghosts can be very good, there’s honestly about 2 Terrans in the world who ever make them look like an issue.
How in the name of everloving fuck is a Terran player expected to go toe to toe with a Zerg in lategame with a ghost that gets any of those nerfs?
Jesus think for half a second, Zerg are doing ‘reasonably well’ as it is
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On June 06 2022 06:36 jack_less wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2022 06:06 Morbidius wrote:On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed. A player who doesn't play Zerg won a tournament. Time to nerf them, only Zerg wins thru skill because it has the most skilled players, other races win because they're imbalanced. no idea what you mean. but ghost vs everything that has zerg in late. doesn't look good. also interesting double moral: once mass caster are bad then again ok.
If you nerf ghost, terran cant win single late game, and goes to mid game allin every game, because of how much more economy zerg have (terran do some 8-1-1 push of 3base every single game) . Yes ghost do beat every zerg late game army.
I would agree to ghost nerf if zerg gets major queen nerf and creep nerf, meaning terran isnt the one thats on timer to do something or zerg gets out of control. But that would never happen.
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Ghosts do well, so well that the marines doesn t exist in end game
It s the problem with units expensive in gas, they are designed to be much better. I guess storage of gas isn t an issue in starcraft 2.. Actually, gas could be store in base, let s say "X" gas per base, i don t know .
But the better idea is to create a forbidden ground where no base can be built. Then workers must harvest gas in travelling a medium distance, and you have to cover this area or do with less gas
Then i would make the prices of spell caster gas-dependant (a bit more than the others / difference with advanced units)
Basic units : cannon fooder
Advanced Units : Tech units with a medium cost in gas and a supply > 2
Spell Casters : High cost in gas / rapid fire
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On June 06 2022 06:06 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2022 04:46 jack_less wrote:
remember when people complained about mass infestor or viper when parasitic bomb were stackable.
Good that 15+ Ghost are accepted.
Hope there comes a nerf for ghost to stop the diversity. something like range -2 for snip or movement speed nerf. emp removed. or that ghost can not be loaded in medi. eventeull that the auto attack is removed. A player who doesn't play Zerg won a tournament. Time to nerf them, only Zerg wins thru skill because it has the most skilled players, other races win because they're imbalanced.
The irony is, Reynor was 5-4 vs Clem overall, in EU Dreamhack (3-0 in the first series, then 2-3 in the finals but Reynor got a free win going into the finals). So Reynor still had a winning record over Clem.
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On June 03 2022 06:37 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Changing the supply or place in the tech tree of any core unit, like the hydra, is not a realistic change.
I don't think there's any point discussing it. Not only will it not happen (not practically relevant), but I really don't think it's possible to construct a good theory about what the game would actually look like after such a change (outside of the immediate early game, like hydra allins vs protoss becoming a thing).
And here I thought this thread was about discussing changes that each individual would like to see, be it realistic or not.
I would like to have Dark Archons with mind control. Let them cost 2000 gas if that is needed to make the not viable in high level games.
I want creep to spread slower.
I want hydras to be less hard to obtain (since they are fun to use).
Other people wanted creep nerfed too and some people also wanted hydras to be easier to obtain.
Since several people wanted similar stuff a discussion about it naturally came to be.
If we are not allowed to discuss unreasonable things, how are we supposed to find the limit for reasonableness?
Any thread about changes to the game contains unreasonable things. That is how regular conversations about change are.
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Northern Ireland26533 Posts
On June 07 2022 06:10 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2022 06:37 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Changing the supply or place in the tech tree of any core unit, like the hydra, is not a realistic change.
I don't think there's any point discussing it. Not only will it not happen (not practically relevant), but I really don't think it's possible to construct a good theory about what the game would actually look like after such a change (outside of the immediate early game, like hydra allins vs protoss becoming a thing). And here I thought this thread was about discussing changes that each individual would like to see, be it realistic or not. I would like to have Dark Archons with mind control. Let them cost 2000 gas if that is needed to make the not viable in high level games. I want creep to spread slower. I want hydras to be less hard to obtain (since they are fun to use). Other people wanted creep nerfed too and some people also wanted hydras to be easier to obtain. Since several people wanted similar stuff a discussion about it naturally came to be. If we are not allowed to discuss unreasonable things, how are we supposed to find the limit for reasonableness? Any thread about changes to the game contains unreasonable things. That is how regular conversations about change are.
To a degree, yeah.
But I mean some people are proposing redesigning the game to a greater degree that even LotV did. And aside from that transition we have a decade of generally incremental changes and tweaks from the balance team.
I’m not averse entirely to such discussion, but if it’s not couched in some kind of practicality it ends up being a bunch of individuals pontificating on their own personal vision of Starcraft.
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I know it would be a big ask even if this project was done from the beginning of the game, but I think it would be amazing to know advanced stats about different units. Like, for a certain unit:
-How many are built
-timing of the first unit
-how many are lost
-correlation with opponent's units
And try to map those onto wins or losses.
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Northern Ireland26533 Posts
On June 13 2022 02:10 Jerubaal wrote:
I know it would be a big ask even if this project was done from the beginning of the game, but I think it would be amazing to know advanced stats about different units. Like, for a certain unit:
-How many are built
-timing of the first unit
-how many are lost
-correlation with opponent's units
And try to map those onto wins or losses.
As a big stats nerd I love that kind of stuff, it seems a shame a lot of games are doing less rather than more in this regard these days.
Way back in OG WC3 you had percentages of solo/duo/tri heroes and your win percentages with them on different maps, matchups etc. was pretty neat
Having returned to the console world after a good decade out I’d forgotten how much I enjoyed gamerscore/trophies, I’m not a big, big hunter of such things but enjoy grinding for ones I find interesting.
Seems a misstep that SC2 doesn’t have much in the multiplayer arena in this domain, the campaign is alright there. Minor change but would be cool to try and nail some feats in ladder.
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I'm not so sure that PvZ needs anymore changes, Protoss seems kind of strong in this new meta, I think a slight tweak to Abduct might make the Viper a bit less (imo) broken vs. late game Protoss, but it would have to be a small nerf at most.
Creep probably could be nerfed, but Clem showed us that with enough APM and multitasking it is possible to beat top tier Zergs like Reynor. I think maps play a bit more into ZvT balance then some people realize, when maps are good for Terran they look really strong in ZvT and vice versa for Zerg favored maps.
Hopefully the next maps are a bit more scrutinized by the TLMC judges to be more about balance and less about which map looks more aesthetically pleasing.
I think Hero is getting ready to win the GSL though, get ready for a Protoss champion.
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Yeah Protoss is pretty strong vs Zerg, except they all lose to the top 4 Zergs. And I don't think they are capable of winning GSL. Protoss is only difficult when you face multiple of them, because they play so differently, but if you only play the one and in a longer series, with preparation as well. The Protoss just gets figured out and they can't win straigth up. I put Terran as favoured in both of their matchups.
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I would honestly love to see more units, but there's still a gold mine of different strategies and playstyles as it is. If we got balance and a bit more focus on midgame I would be content for years.
But everyone agrees that a game can never reach a 'perfect' state, as it should get new content, like maps and units, before it can ever reach stagnancy.
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There is no need to have a close look to stats.
All you need is the mod/extension which simulate fight between units, then you have to create every relationships between units/group. I pick an example : simulate medivacs, marauders against stalkers. Then laught.
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EPT
