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Vision_
851 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/44NmypQ/sc2.jpg) Then if you have a good setup with shortcut to scan, this kind of tweak isn t necessary for diamond/master players, but i m really happy to see this kind of simple idea makes is own path (for an eventual less punishing game) - idk what players do actually, but i set the scan shortcut to one of the latest (5th or 6th) button mouse. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
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Vision_
851 Posts
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Vision_
851 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/zsbBGXS/null-void.jpg) Indeed, the spell is also able of revealing units in the targeted area and that's why I wonder if Blizzard would have liked a specific system for protoss to remove creep. Then, If you allow the sentry guardian shield spell to also reveal invisible units during his activation it could be possible in PvZ to create a BO (like 2 gates > twilight blink > 1 gate > robot, that's my question). The idea of this tweak is to offer a different solution to the opening stargate which is overused and kills the match up. To support this small modification, the stalker can also benefit from a very small damage increase against heavy units (from +5 to +6) in order to deal against roachs in mid game. I could maybe ask a test of this tweak by two pros players, What do diamond and GM players in the community think about this idea? (eventually sentry could be created with 75 energy) | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
Fwiw I don't think the Queen was as OP as it was a few years back. Just like creep spread, it wasn't OP 5 years ago, but it's OP now. Top level Zergs have just gotten so good at using Queens defensively and for map control purposes, time to continue the slow tune down of this unit. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
On October 12 2022 22:38 Beelzebub1 wrote: I'm hoping that the balance council will at the very least come out with a statement regarding things they are looking at, I mean look at how positively the Queen nerfs impacted ZvP, I'm hoping that a similar QoL adjustment will be given to improve ZvT a bit. Fwiw I don't think the Queen was as OP as it was a few years back. Just like creep spread, it wasn't OP 5 years ago, but it's OP now. Top level Zergs have just gotten so good at using Queens defensively and for map control purposes, time to continue the slow tune down of this unit. Good, your words are fair, creep has never been so important and from a viewer point of view it looks like an insane feature when you see waterfalls map covered in less than 6 or 7 min. I wouldn t like to play as a terran on this map For example, with this supposed tweak (guardian shield reveal invisible units) and admitting Protoss can make this kind of build order without so much risk, if zerg player do mass queens, the sentry can reduce by 2 the damage done by each queens (Queens damage 2 x 4, guardian shield reduce 2 damage points) | ||
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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States18 Posts
A question I often ponder is what if everything moved a little slower...like all units equally slowing down by a unit or something (except workers?) Obviously, this is not realistic at all at this point but I wonder... | ||
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KNUCKLEHEAD
United States18 Posts
On October 12 2022 22:38 Beelzebub1 wrote: Fwiw I don't think the Queen was as OP as it was a few years back. Just like creep spread, it wasn't OP 5 years ago, but it's OP now. Top level Zergs have just gotten so good at using Queens defensively and for map control purposes, time to continue the slow tune down of this unit. Using top level Zergs as balance examples is not the strongest of evidence IMO The issue could also be rephrased saying that Queens are arguably the only safe defensive/map control unit for Z. They're also the only real viable anti-air for a long time--as spores kill drones effectively, hydras need tech and upgrades, and spire requires tech and time. Creep tumors could cost more energy though, if that's the direction youre thinking. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
On October 13 2022 02:12 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote: Using top level Zergs as balance examples is not the strongest of evidence IMO The issue could also be rephrased saying that Queens are arguably the only safe defensive/map control unit for Z. They're also the only real viable anti-air for a long time--as spores kill drones effectively, hydras need tech and upgrades, and spire requires tech and time. Creep tumors could cost more energy though, if that's the direction youre thinking. If you increase the mana cost of tumors you also have to increase a little bit the amount of starting mana. But i m not sure of the effectiveness of this kind of tweak... Especially when queen can spam 8 tumors in a second... In other hand you can make the injection spell cost 40 mana and the tumors cost something like 55 but adding the ability for queens to gain mana 1.6 times faster : 1.6 x 25 = 40 (with healing spell cost something like 80 mana), in order to avoid the over abused of spawnning a ton of tumors. The queen starts now with 75 mana. The time difference in comparaison with the current meta to get the 2nd injection is delay by 4 seconds in this case... The objective of being so accurate is not to apply a nerf (only because something overpowered) but like an adjustement regarding the evolution of the speed zerg play-style these last years (see beelzebub post) | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On October 13 2022 02:12 KNUCKLEHEAD wrote: Using top level Zergs as balance examples is not the strongest of evidence IMO The issue could also be rephrased saying that Queens are arguably the only safe defensive/map control unit for Z. They're also the only real viable anti-air for a long time--as spores kill drones effectively, hydras need tech and upgrades, and spire requires tech and time. Creep tumors could cost more energy though, if that's the direction youre thinking. It isn't just the top Zergs. In Heart of the Swarm someone like Scarlett was notable for her creep spread. Now that massing queens every game is the standard, every mid-tier Zerg can spread creep like a savant. It's absurd how little Zergs have to vary their gameplan in 2022, especially in ZvT. Defend everything with mass queen, then build ling-bane and fling it at your opponent until they keel over. Half the time they don't even need to transition because a successful early game defense means that they're in a position to turn any momentary bank into a flood of banelings into a potential win. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
I want more protracted back and forth fights between ling bane and bio. right now it feels like terran throws a few jabs at zerg, if they get no damage in they recognize the impossibility of having a good push in latter portions of the game so they camp. this used to encourage zerg to get aggressive which was fine because we still had interaction, but zerg have recently trended towards also just camping, so instead we get the worst of sc2 metas a turtle lategame meta. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On October 13 2022 10:32 washikie wrote: It worries me that we are seeing more and more infestor broodlord vs ghost thor hellbat lib late games in tvz, unlike the ghost vs waves of zerg units meta we had going on awhile back this new meta basically enforces a stalemate between the two players leading to ultra long games of attrition with very minimal interactions. I would like to see either some changes to make zerg more vulnerable in the midgame to reduce these situations or adjustments to terran and zerg late game units to reduce infester brood lord scenarios. We don't really see those games anymore. Zergs have discovered that they can just hydra-bane Terrans into oblivion if they try to transition into ghost mech. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
unfortunetly they kill marauders in a single shoot but you can easily imagine a stun effect added to this spell with a few less damage done by the nova. (the damage could be equal to 105 + 55 to be used in PvP against stalkers) massive units aren t stunned. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On October 13 2022 09:10 Athenau wrote: It isn't just the top Zergs. In Heart of the Swarm someone like Scarlett was notable for her creep spread. Now that massing queens every game is the standard, every mid-tier Zerg can spread creep like a savant. It's absurd how little Zergs have to vary their gameplan in 2022, especially in ZvT. Defend everything with mass queen, then build ling-bane and fling it at your opponent until they keel over. Half the time they don't even need to transition because a successful early game defense means that they're in a position to turn any momentary bank into a flood of banelings into a potential win. This is pretty accurate, I'd just say that it's more absurd how cost efficient Queens are vs. early harassment in general, and how greedy it lets Zergs play. Hellions early game is kind of weak and rarely gets drones, Banshee is eh, even medivac harass seems to get deflected pretty handily by Queens. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
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Vision_
851 Posts
On October 14 2022 12:11 Beelzebub1 wrote: This is pretty accurate, I'd just say that it's more absurd how cost efficient Queens are vs. early harassment in general, and how greedy it lets Zergs play. Hellions early game is kind of weak and rarely gets drones, Banshee is eh, even medivac harass seems to get deflected pretty handily by Queens. If it s the main problem, Queens should cost gas in order to slow the progression of building an army without too much slowing build orders progress. If it s the case the answer must balance the gas spendings between terran and zerg. Start to mid game : > Queen now cost 150 minerals and 25 gas. > Banelings price can be increase to 30 gas. > Tumors building time increase from 11 to 13 seconds End game > NeoSteel armor reduce bunker build time by 25% PS : eventually, a small amount of gas can be offer at start to Zerg for pay the first queen. | ||
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Vision_
851 Posts
With 12 workers per base, Blizzard secretly increased the supply of command center, hatchery or nexus by 4 ( ;D ), to allow workers of not been supply blocked. But it was without realizing that a shifting of workers in builds orders will particulary affect terran and protoss developpement which are a kind of pivot point in term of buid order because they are forced to create a pylon or a supply depot to create an unit production building. they have undirectly decrease the efficience developpement of the main base by 66% and it s easy to check : In LotV, while you need 8 workers after the first supply depot to fill your mineral and gas ressources (from 14 to 22), you would have needed 12 workers in HotS to fill your first base (from 10 to 22). As the result terran or protoss are more or less forced to put their time and their mineral in building a second base (which is a shame). All this time is lost to the favor of creep expansion in particulary. So the first step to defend is a return to 9 or 10-workers system economy. And I challenge anyone here to say and explain that there s no relation between creep expansion and new economy in lotv. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic613 Posts
On October 14 2022 12:11 Beelzebub1 wrote: This is pretty accurate, I'd just say that it's more absurd how cost efficient Queens are vs. early harassment in general, and how greedy it lets Zergs play. Hellions early game is kind of weak and rarely gets drones, Banshee is eh, even medivac harass seems to get deflected pretty handily by Queens. being saying this for ages now, its so extreme that zerg never ever does Spine Crawlers any more  meanwhile in Broodwar Zerg are force to waste their larva on drones or army.... Queen has solved this increasing the larva count + defending anything you can throw at them. | ||
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jack_less
77 Posts
On October 15 2022 01:55 BonitiilloO wrote: meanwhile in Broodwar Zerg are force to waste their larva on drones or army.... Queen has solved this increasing the larva count + defending anything you can throw at them. queens are generally only good against air. vs stuff like hellion/ adapt aka ground they just force "attack me and not you worker" + being tanky is helpful, but it takes forever for a queen to kill something. and the heal ability is mostly only effiecent for other queen, possibly roach. spore are good against air, but because some air units have range 5+ it needs the queen, which can force air units into spore range. Spine... are good against armor... which harass unit has armor? Spine are only interesting for zvz against Roach... | ||
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OmniSkeptic
Canada68 Posts
+ Buff Sentry sight range by 1 (to bring it in line with detection range of observers and cannons). - Observers now constantly make an audible chime (like the one they used to have while deployed). This helps the toss by making detection more consistently available, but also helps opponents by making it easier to know if their army/ drop has been spotted instead of having to coin flip and pray they didn't pass an observer. Honestly, I'd even just take a "Observers that are moving or are deployed make a chime" and allow good non-f2ing toss players to intentionally keep them not moving in the less-ranged mode for maximum benefit. -Nerf creep tumor sight range by 2. Right now they can see off creep, which is stupid. We can ever-so-slightly nerf lategame creep without nerfing early game creep by reducing sight range, since zergs have the APM early game to use a queen to keep the creep able to spread max distance | ||
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