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IEM Katowice 2022: RO24 groups, RO36 bracket announced - P…

Forum Index > SC2 General
125 CommentsPost a Reply
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Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France13023 Posts
January 29 2022 20:15 GMT
#41
These groups are horrible, why is group D so stacked / worth far more points than Serral or Trap’s?
WriterMaru
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8991 Posts
January 29 2022 20:21 GMT
#42
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 29 2022 20:21 GMT
#43
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8991 Posts
January 29 2022 20:27 GMT
#44
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 29 2022 20:29 GMT
#45
There's probably fairer ways to construct the groups than purely random draws, too.
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 29 2022 21:21 GMT
#46
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17750 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-29 21:27:52
January 29 2022 21:26 GMT
#47
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed
"Expert" mods4ever.com
warnull
Profile Joined February 2016
United States280 Posts
January 29 2022 21:33 GMT
#48
On January 30 2022 06:26 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed


it's 0.8% for the group with the highest points
Die4Ever
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17750 Posts
January 29 2022 21:37 GMT
#49
On January 30 2022 06:33 warnull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 06:26 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed


it's 0.8% for the group with the highest points

so it's even lower for Maru then
"Expert" mods4ever.com
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-29 21:54:12
January 29 2022 21:39 GMT
#50
On January 30 2022 06:37 Die4Ever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 06:33 warnull wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:26 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed


it's 0.8% for the group with the highest points

so it's even lower for Maru then


Yes I can try constructing that simulation but I think your intuition will be correct. On the other hand, Maru having the most points and the tier system will tend to make his group the one with the most points anyway.

I would add that the tier with the biggest skew is tier 3 though. The gap between Reynor and HeroMarine is the single biggest gap between adjacent players.
tommey.liang
Profile Joined November 2020
United States363 Posts
January 29 2022 21:46 GMT
#51
Would be interesting to see who can make it through the ringer and join the rest of the IEM Katowice 2022 participants.
FF, KH, Persona, Uncharted, Yakuza | Porter, Illenium, MitiS, Dabin, Seven Lions, Petit Biscuit | Diablo II, SC2 | Pho, sushi, tacos
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8991 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-29 21:58:53
January 29 2022 21:55 GMT
#52
On January 30 2022 06:39 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 06:37 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:33 warnull wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:26 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed


it's 0.8% for the group with the highest points

so it's even lower for Maru then


Yes I can try constructing that simulation but I think your intuition will be correct. On the other hand, Maru having the most points and the tier system will tend to make his group the one with the most points anyway.


Unless I'm crazy it can only be a Maru group since the 297 is the maximum amount -65 (dif between Dream and Zoun) and Maru has almost 250 point over Rogue in second place
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 29 2022 22:04 GMT
#53
On January 30 2022 06:55 Nakajin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2022 06:39 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:37 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:33 warnull wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:26 Die4Ever wrote:
On January 30 2022 06:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:27 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 honorablemacroterran wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:21 Nakajin wrote:
On January 30 2022 05:10 honorablemacroterran wrote:
1/64 chance is still enough for a lot of research to claim it is statistically significant, though, to put it into perspective.


Fair enough.

I just think it's a bit silly to throw in that the bracket are rigged and quite mean toward the players.



I don't think it implies anything about the players--they shouldn't have had anything to do with it.


The way it's presented by some is definitly that certain players (ie Serral) have had more success than they deserved because tournament organisers are stacking the odd in their favor behind the scene.


Here's another interesting way to look at this problem.

https://pastebin.com/bv2uP8tZ

It says that there's a 0.8% chance for the average of Group D EPT points to be 297 points or greater than the averages of the other groups.

0.8% chance for group D or Maru's group? cause "Group D" doesn't actually mean anything

and Maru himself brings a bunch of points with him so his group is naturally a bit higher since ESL doesn't give any advantage to the #1 seed


it's 0.8% for the group with the highest points

so it's even lower for Maru then


Yes I can try constructing that simulation but I think your intuition will be correct. On the other hand, Maru having the most points and the tier system will tend to make his group the one with the most points anyway.


Unless I'm crazy it can only be a Maru group since the 297 is the maximum amount -65 (dif between Dream and Zoun) and Maru has almost 250 point over Rogue in second place


I updated that post. I think where Reynor gets placed also has a big impact because he's 9th and there's a big gap between him and HeroMarine too.
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 29 2022 23:37 GMT
#54
[image loading]

Here's what the distribution looks like, by the way. The red line is what actually happened.
[Phantom]
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
Mexico2170 Posts
January 29 2022 23:40 GMT
#55
That is strange indeed.

For me the worst part of it though is that i'ts going to be all ZvT after the ground stages again, no doubt.
WriterTeamLiquid Staff writer since 2014 @Mortal_Phantom
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
January 29 2022 23:50 GMT
#56
Two years in a row(and that's just what I remember) with this conspiracy. Is it really that hard to record the process and show the video there's no conspiracy involved?
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4420 Posts
January 30 2022 00:27 GMT
#57
The foreigners get easier brackets/groups conspiracy has been going on since at least 2011. In most cases it's just chance and even though I often call it out I know that most tournaments aren't rigged in that way and it really did just happen by chance but I do believe there have been tournaments where an organizer rolled the groups or bracket an extra time to get the matchups they wanted. It's hard to know which is which.

Also, regardless of whether it's actually rigged or not a big reason I mention it is because it should be part of a players legacy. The fact that Serral has only ever had a single tournament where he played top players from start to finish should be counted when people are talking about his dominance/results. I don't know of any other top player who consistently gets easy paths like Serral. Even ones who have won less.
RogerChillingworth
Profile Joined March 2010
Chad3132 Posts
January 30 2022 00:28 GMT
#58
i hope herO wins the whole thing

honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 30 2022 00:49 GMT
#59
On January 30 2022 09:27 JJH777 wrote:
The foreigners get easier brackets/groups conspiracy has been going on since at least 2011. In most cases it's just chance and even though I often call it out I know that most tournaments aren't rigged in that way and it really did just happen by chance but I do believe there have been tournaments where an organizer rolled the groups or bracket an extra time to get the matchups they wanted. It's hard to know which is which.

Also, regardless of whether it's actually rigged or not a big reason I mention it is because it should be part of a players legacy. The fact that Serral has only ever had a single tournament where he played top players from start to finish should be counted when people are talking about his dominance/results. I don't know of any other top player who consistently gets easy paths like Serral. Even ones who have won less.


I don't think the main story here is about foreigners vs Koreans. I think it's about everyone in Group D having a significantly harder group than everyone else. Most players in Group D are actually foreigners.
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary418 Posts
January 30 2022 02:45 GMT
#60
oh hai

thanks for the problem (while i let the whisky settle a bit)

it is aktchually 1.17% (probability for the max EPT sum group to have no less than 10056 points, uniform draws per tiers).
there are 3 of those scores, this current 10056, 10072 (Neeb+Dream) and the max 10122 (Nakajin: confirm, all these has Maru)
i have assigned the first 4 players a group id (it is just a labeling for an extra * 4! which we dont care about )
the rest can be computed, we only have (4!)^4 = 331776 cases.
these 3 scores each account for (3!)^4=1296 cases, so we have 3*1296/331776.

sorry for my gnuplot skills
[image loading]

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