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IEM Katowice 2022: RO24 groups, RO36 bracket announced - P…

Forum Index > SC2 General
125 CommentsPost a Reply
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Gina
Profile Joined July 2019
241 Posts
January 31 2022 11:59 GMT
#101
They might not be using a nice-looking draw like bits of paper out of a hat, but just put the names and points into a program and get the groups. I know my friends running Go tournaments had software for that sort of thing. So there may not be anything to show on video.
Omit needles swords.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
January 31 2022 16:59 GMT
#102
Damn Maru is the number 1 seed and I actually don't think he'll make it out of the group.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France13023 Posts
January 31 2022 17:07 GMT
#103
On February 01 2022 01:59 Fango wrote:
Damn Maru is the number 1 seed and I actually don't think he'll make it out of the group.

Yeah if he loses to Zoun again, gets beaten by Clem (bo3 anything can happen) and by either Reynor or herO (let's be realistic, given how stacked group D already is, they gonna send the best ro36 player in it for giggles), which is realistic as well, he might not qualify.
I think he has a decent shot though
WriterMaru
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-31 18:16:21
January 31 2022 18:13 GMT
#104
I don't think there's a real risk of Maru not making it out of the group, but it will definitely be harder for him than most of the other top seeds despite him being #1. Usually, the higher your seed, the easier your path, but in this case it's the opposite.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18487 Posts
January 31 2022 18:52 GMT
#105
On February 01 2022 03:13 honorablemacroterran wrote:
I don't think there's a real risk of Maru not making it out of the group, but it will definitely be harder for him than most of the other top seeds despite him being #1. Usually, the higher your seed, the easier your path, but in this case it's the opposite.

You think Maru has it harder than Trap? Or for that matter, Rogue?

I mean... Maru in Trap's group would definitely crush the whole thing. But it's far from an easy group for Trap.

The only first seed with an actual easy group is Serral, although I expect him to lose to Dark (they'll both beat everybody else, though).
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-01-31 22:12:07
January 31 2022 21:00 GMT
#106
On February 01 2022 03:52 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2022 03:13 honorablemacroterran wrote:
I don't think there's a real risk of Maru not making it out of the group, but it will definitely be harder for him than most of the other top seeds despite him being #1. Usually, the higher your seed, the easier your path, but in this case it's the opposite.

You think Maru has it harder than Trap? Or for that matter, Rogue?

I mean... Maru in Trap's group would definitely crush the whole thing. But it's far from an easy group for Trap.

The only first seed with an actual easy group is Serral, although I expect him to lose to Dark (they'll both beat everybody else, though).


Yeah, Maru has the hardest group. I think it would be fairer to solve for the groups that minimize the variance of the total points across the groups.

Edit: I didn't actually exhaust the problem space or do a real solver, but I ran my simulator a few times and this seems to be close to the minimum variance groups as I suggested above:

{'a': ['Serral', 'Clem', 'TIME', 'Scarlett', 'Zoun'],
'b': ['Maru', 'Dark', 'Solar', 'Special', 'Showtime'],
'c': ['Rogue', 'Zest', 'HeroMarine', 'Neeb', 'Dream'],
'd': ['Trap', 'Cure', 'Reynor', 'Bunny', 'Lambo']}

The variance of this configuration is 173.1875, whereas the variance of the actual groups is 453,794.1875

The group point totals would be thus:

a 8960
b 8940
c 8923
d 8944

To me, this not only looks obviously fairer, but also more interesting. I have relatively little interest in watching the actual Group B tbh. Interestingly, it also distributed the Koreans and the foreigners more evenly as well.
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary418 Posts
January 31 2022 22:17 GMT
#107
isn't this what you are looking for?

444.75

8951
Maru,T,3185
Zest,P,1976
Solar,Z,1369
Scarlett,Z,1315
Zoun,P,1106

8924
Rogue,Z,2937
Dark,Z,2397
Heromarine,T,1573
Neeb,P,1265
Showtime,P,752

8944
Trap,P,2897
Cure,T,2153
Reynor,Z,1914
Bunny,T,1240
Lambo,Z,740

8948
Serral,Z,2670
Clem,T,2536
Time,T,1333
Special,T,1237
Dream,T,1172
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 31 2022 22:25 GMT
#108
On February 01 2022 07:17 bela.mervado wrote:
isn't this what you are looking for?

444.75

8951
Maru,T,3185
Zest,P,1976
Solar,Z,1369
Scarlett,Z,1315
Zoun,P,1106

8924
Rogue,Z,2937
Dark,Z,2397
Heromarine,T,1573
Neeb,P,1265
Showtime,P,752

8944
Trap,P,2897
Cure,T,2153
Reynor,Z,1914
Bunny,T,1240
Lambo,Z,740

8948
Serral,Z,2670
Clem,T,2536
Time,T,1333
Special,T,1237
Dream,T,1172



Yes but I think the variance is 111.1875 not 444.75?
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary418 Posts
January 31 2022 22:29 GMT
#109
yes this is just the sum of square of gr sum pts diff from avg

uhh this line looks ugly
i keep it
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 31 2022 22:43 GMT
#110
On February 01 2022 07:29 bela.mervado wrote:
yes this is just the sum of square of gr sum pts diff from avg

uhh this line looks ugly
i keep it


May I ask what you are using to do your analysis? Would you mind sharing the source code?
bela.mervado
Profile Joined December 2008
Hungary418 Posts
January 31 2022 23:06 GMT
#111
https://pastebin.com/zUdkMAxJ

of course, here you are
a bit messy

g++ wat.cc
./a.out
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France13023 Posts
January 31 2022 23:12 GMT
#112
Are these proposals using the rules in place ie. tiers / buckets of 4 players? But without random draw
WriterMaru
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
January 31 2022 23:23 GMT
#113
On February 01 2022 08:12 Poopi wrote:
Are these proposals using the rules in place ie. tiers / buckets of 4 players? But without random draw


Yes it is solving for the minimum variance possible under the existing rules, without random draws.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France13023 Posts
January 31 2022 23:38 GMT
#114
I think random draws is fine / can add hype, and too low variance would be boring if favorites had very good shot of advancing. But they should make their process public so people don’t think rigged
WriterMaru
honorablemacroterran
Profile Joined January 2022
188 Posts
February 01 2022 00:42 GMT
#115
On February 01 2022 08:38 Poopi wrote:
I think random draws is fine / can add hype, and too low variance would be boring if favorites had very good shot of advancing. But they should make their process public so people don’t think rigged


I think that loading the most hype matches into the Group of Death is actually bad for overall viewership tbh and makes the other groups less hype. I think the groups posted by myself and Bela are legitimately more interesting and the outcomes are less certain across more of the groups.
Vindicare605
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States16127 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-01 07:21:58
February 01 2022 07:19 GMT
#116
On February 01 2022 09:42 honorablemacroterran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2022 08:38 Poopi wrote:
I think random draws is fine / can add hype, and too low variance would be boring if favorites had very good shot of advancing. But they should make their process public so people don’t think rigged


I think that loading the most hype matches into the Group of Death is actually bad for overall viewership tbh and makes the other groups less hype. I think the groups posted by myself and Bela are legitimately more interesting and the outcomes are less certain across more of the groups.


It almost guarantees an underwhelming Ro4 or Ro8 because all of the good matches are decided early on in Bo3s in the group matches.

BTW all of this mess is going to look way worse if the rumors about the Chinese players having major Visa issues is true because that means some other low ranked player will get bumped up to Group B in place of TIME and that will only make the disparity in that group vs the others even MORE apparent.
aka: KTVindicare the Geeky Bartender
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18487 Posts
February 01 2022 07:32 GMT
#117
On February 01 2022 07:17 bela.mervado wrote:
isn't this what you are looking for?

444.75

8951
Maru,T,3185
Zest,P,1976
Solar,Z,1369
Scarlett,Z,1315
Zoun,P,1106

8924
Rogue,Z,2937
Dark,Z,2397
Heromarine,T,1573
Neeb,P,1265
Showtime,P,752

8944
Trap,P,2897
Cure,T,2153
Reynor,Z,1914
Bunny,T,1240
Lambo,Z,740

8948
Serral,Z,2670
Clem,T,2536
Time,T,1333
Special,T,1237
Dream,T,1172


How is this better?

Group A: interesting fight for 2nd place between Zest, Solar and Zoun. Maru all but guaranteed through unless he somehow loses to Protoss.

Group B: Rogue vs Dark for the billionth time this year. Heromarine with an outside chance of causing an upset.

Group C: interesting.

Group D: Serral has an even easier group. Sure, you trade one angstgegner for another, but the rest still can't touch him. Clem has to TvT a bunch, so he should be comfortably second, but either Dream or Time can surprise.

Vs the actual groups:

Group A: interesting fight for 2nd place between Solar, Cure and Dream. Rogue all but guaranteed unless he decided to leave his A-game at home.

Group B: Serral and Dark should stomp this. Only question is who is #1.

Group C: interesting.

Group D: interesting fight for second place. If Maru has an off day it's even possible that he falls to Clem, Zoun and/or Reynor. Unlikely given current forms.


Seems like a lot of effort for no significant gain.
RKC
Profile Joined June 2012
2848 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-02-01 09:26:37
February 01 2022 08:19 GMT
#118
All professional sports employ a seeding system to ensure that the top players get easier opposition and only face-off later in the competition. This is important not just because of the prestige of advancing further, but also because deeper runs return bigger cash prize. It's a matter of meritocracy.

Putting all the top players in the same group or bracket will definitely guarantee more big clashes. Whether it generates more hype is debatable because casual viewers are more drawn towards the advanced stages by default.

Speaking for myself, I'm not going to purposely tune in a group match just because it's a group of death. I plan to watch the knockout rounds simply because it's most certainly guaranteed to have the top players on form clashing. But if it turns out (hypothetically) that the final four is Serral against three other underdogs (because Maru, Rogue, Dark, and Reynor got knocked out earlier due to bad bracket luck and stacked groups), I won't bother watching at all.*

* Of course, I would watch if the underdog is truly on form and deserving of advancing by beating the top players (and not fluked through by luck of the draw).
gg no re thx
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
February 01 2022 10:02 GMT
#119
On January 31 2022 20:59 Gina wrote:
They might not be using a nice-looking draw like bits of paper out of a hat, but just put the names and points into a program and get the groups. I know my friends running Go tournaments had software for that sort of thing. So there may not be anything to show on video.

That would be what? 30 seconds video? So why not show it? I mean there's literally no reason to not show it. You're not competing for views or to be interesting, you're doing it so you stop these stupid conspiracy theories.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Schelim
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Austria11528 Posts
February 01 2022 10:44 GMT
#120
i'm looking forward to the tournament. don't really care too much how exactly the groups were assembled tbh. if you're the best player in the tournament, prove it by beating anyone put in front of you.
TY <3 Cure <3 Inno <3 Special <3
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