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Updates on alphastar / deepmind?

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
MarlieChurphy
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States2063 Posts
October 11 2021 20:38 GMT
#1
Seems like there hasnt been anything since 2019. Has there been any improvements or updates? Have any korean pros done showmatches?
RIP SPOR 11/24/11 NEVAR FORGET
ilax300
Profile Joined January 2021
15 Posts
October 11 2021 21:21 GMT
#2
Oh that project ended a long time ago, the purpose never was to make the perfect AI that would conquer the world. It was more to gather data and help write a paper about it all. It would also be too expensive to continue at as it would have to learn to play on a new set of maps each time. Shame they never did some proper showmatches though, all in all I felt the whole thing was underwhelming and even with a APM cap, perfect control was nearly all alphastar relied on to secure wins.
jy_9876543210
Profile Joined March 2016
265 Posts
October 11 2021 22:38 GMT
#3
On October 12 2021 06:21 ilax300 wrote:
even with a APM cap

APM cap? you mean the 2000 APM cap?
Phase 1: F2    Phase 2: A   Phase 3: Profit!
Chris_Havoc
Profile Joined August 2016
United States600 Posts
October 12 2021 01:42 GMT
#4
The AlphaStar SC2 project was completed at the end of 2019 and was re-purposed to work on protein folding and the project was subsquently re-named AlphaFold.

You can read about DeepMind/AlphaFold's work here: https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/11/deepmind-ai-handles-protein-folding-which-humbled-previous-software/
Owner of the SC2 Esports Anthology channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/SC2EsportsAnthology
Husyelt
Profile Blog Joined May 2020
United States830 Posts
October 12 2021 02:52 GMT
#5
AlphaStar's team got embarrassed by losing their first actual live match in a PvP against John MaNa Connor. The team quickly closed shop and declared that they "Beat StarCraft" 10-0 in matches. Once they actually limited the AI to the actual screen's vision, (aka as playing the actual game,) it was figured out in a single match. No B07 against Maru or Serral. No ladder version.
You're getting cynical and that won't do I'd throw the rose tint back on the exploded view
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1913 Posts
October 12 2021 07:20 GMT
#6
On October 12 2021 11:52 Husyelt wrote:
AlphaStar's team got embarrassed by losing their first actual live match in a PvP against John MaNa Connor. The team quickly closed shop and declared that they "Beat StarCraft" 10-0 in matches. Once they actually limited the AI to the actual screen's vision, (aka as playing the actual game,) it was figured out in a single match. No B07 against Maru or Serral. No ladder version.


Was that really the reason? Afaik, they stated they successfully reached GM level and went toe to toe with top pros with all 3 races, which is how far as they got with the resources and timeframe. I believe they could have gotten to an undisputed super-human level as well, but hey, beating the game was never the main goal.
Buff the siegetank
Ciaus_Dronu
Profile Joined June 2017
South Africa1848 Posts
October 12 2021 08:13 GMT
#7
On October 12 2021 06:21 ilax300 wrote:
Oh that project ended a long time ago, the purpose never was to make the perfect AI that would conquer the world. It was more to gather data and help write a paper about it all. It would also be too expensive to continue at as it would have to learn to play on a new set of maps each time. Shame they never did some proper showmatches though, all in all I felt the whole thing was underwhelming and even with a APM cap, perfect control was nearly all alphastar relied on to secure wins.


Eh, I don't really agree with this. It was really good at judging what fights to take, and seemed to have a reasonable sense of the map and where stuff was too.

I mean the one Zerg one won a masters level ladder game against a cannon immortal proxy rush by double-expanding and just out-econing the opponent in what was honestly one of the coolest holds of that build I've seen - even if the execution was a little eh.
Watching its ladder games where it has to face weird and aggressive early nonsense was much more impressive than the showmatches. It actually sort of knew what do in a lot of those spots.
NinjaNight
Profile Joined January 2018
428 Posts
October 12 2021 17:00 GMT
#8
On October 12 2021 17:13 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 06:21 ilax300 wrote:
Oh that project ended a long time ago, the purpose never was to make the perfect AI that would conquer the world. It was more to gather data and help write a paper about it all. It would also be too expensive to continue at as it would have to learn to play on a new set of maps each time. Shame they never did some proper showmatches though, all in all I felt the whole thing was underwhelming and even with a APM cap, perfect control was nearly all alphastar relied on to secure wins.


Eh, I don't really agree with this. It was really good at judging what fights to take, and seemed to have a reasonable sense of the map and where stuff was too.

I mean the one Zerg one won a masters level ladder game against a cannon immortal proxy rush by double-expanding and just out-econing the opponent in what was honestly one of the coolest holds of that build I've seen - even if the execution was a little eh.
Watching its ladder games where it has to face weird and aggressive early nonsense was much more impressive than the showmatches. It actually sort of knew what do in a lot of those spots.


They were very limited in strategy, like the Zerg one every single game I watched over and over would always do some kind of roach queen ravager early timing attack. Terran one vs zerg would overwhelm you with constant marine tank pushes and some marine drop harass at main base
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
October 12 2021 17:29 GMT
#9
AlphaStar did beat Serral in PVZ (which is AlphaStar's best matchup)

Also, AlphaStar was WAY ahead of the metagame. AlphaStar went Disruptors in PvZ which at that time was considered crazy.

Also in ZvP AlphaStar did a lot of Roach/Ravager Queen walks years before it was popular.

AlphaStar's 2 Adept into Oracle open against Zerg was deemed so good, that they responded by nerfing Adept built time by a few seconds.

Husyelt
Profile Blog Joined May 2020
United States830 Posts
October 12 2021 22:33 GMT
#10
On October 13 2021 02:29 meadbert wrote:
AlphaStar did beat Serral in PVZ (which is AlphaStar's best matchup)

Also, AlphaStar was WAY ahead of the metagame. AlphaStar went Disruptors in PvZ which at that time was considered crazy.

Also in ZvP AlphaStar did a lot of Roach/Ravager Queen walks years before it was popular.

AlphaStar's 2 Adept into Oracle open against Zerg was deemed so good, that they responded by nerfing Adept built time by a few seconds.


Serral tried to beat Alphastar by just macroing and playing standards. The fifth or six time he ended up winning. Once you beat a bot or find it’s weaknesses it’s game over. There’s no actual adaption at a certain point.

The truth is that the team realized they had hit an AI wall and weren’t making any progress. They learned a lot, but the “close up shop and move on” was shady to say the least.
You're getting cynical and that won't do I'd throw the rose tint back on the exploded view
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2141 Posts
October 13 2021 03:28 GMT
#11
On October 13 2021 02:00 NinjaNight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2021 17:13 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
On October 12 2021 06:21 ilax300 wrote:
Oh that project ended a long time ago, the purpose never was to make the perfect AI that would conquer the world. It was more to gather data and help write a paper about it all. It would also be too expensive to continue at as it would have to learn to play on a new set of maps each time. Shame they never did some proper showmatches though, all in all I felt the whole thing was underwhelming and even with a APM cap, perfect control was nearly all alphastar relied on to secure wins.


Eh, I don't really agree with this. It was really good at judging what fights to take, and seemed to have a reasonable sense of the map and where stuff was too.

I mean the one Zerg one won a masters level ladder game against a cannon immortal proxy rush by double-expanding and just out-econing the opponent in what was honestly one of the coolest holds of that build I've seen - even if the execution was a little eh.
Watching its ladder games where it has to face weird and aggressive early nonsense was much more impressive than the showmatches. It actually sort of knew what do in a lot of those spots.


They were very limited in strategy, like the Zerg one every single game I watched over and over would always do some kind of roach queen ravager early timing attack. Terran one vs zerg would overwhelm you with constant marine tank pushes and some marine drop harass at main base

If you're playing best of 1s against random/anonymous opponents, that's exactly what you'd expect from an AI that works by gradually iterating and optimizing its performance.
vibeo gane,
FatalGhost14
Profile Joined October 2024
1 Post
October 15 2024 11:06 GMT
#12
--- Nuked ---
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain877 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-10-15 20:24:00
October 15 2024 20:23 GMT
#13
Deepmind has been busy solving protein folding to simplify drug development and getting a Nobel price on the way.

I am proud that our beloved little game was a step of their journey. StarCraft helping in the real world and (future) real lifes.

Noone should care about AlphaStar not winning the world championship.
My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
October 15 2024 21:03 GMT
#14
On October 13 2021 07:33 Husyelt wrote:
They learned a lot, but the “close up shop and move on” was shady to say the least.


Their goal was never to make a perfect Starcraft AI, it was just a small experiment, they weren't going to spend more money and time on something they ultimately didn't care about.
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