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I really don't understand all the hate towards Brood Lords; I guess horribly designed Swarm Hosts have stained the concept of "free" units.
I think Brood Lords are among the most interesting units in the game, with clear strengths and weaknesses. They also function more like Siege Tanks than other air units- abusing map terrain, not negating it like most air units. I think "free" units are also probably the best way to do Zerg tier 3, keeping alive the swarm style while letting Zergs have some expensive individual units.
Honestly, I'd like to see the Swarm Host get a similar functionality, where they can only attack while being at risk of retaliation and thus requiring support around them. My dream for the SH is to be a proper tier 3 ranged unit, not a relatively cheesy individual attack force.
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Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army
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Remove units that discourage moving and poking around the map.
Force fields, Marauder concussive shell and Speedlings too fast.
SC2 is turtle until deathball because you get destroyed for poking around
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On September 07 2021 14:03 Highways wrote:
Remove units that discourage moving and poking around the map.
Force fields, Marauder concussive shell and Speedlings too fast.
SC2 is turtle until deathball because you get destroyed for poking around
speedlings kind of ruin ZvZ early game in brood war, making it low econ
it would actually be better if zerglings were slow until tier 2, just don't include any reapers in the game so you can just turtle against harass
nobody makes speed lings to defend speed vultures, you wall your natural and get fast mutas (hopefully before a drop)
units hopping the cliff into your base is just ridiculous, makes walling pointless
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On September 05 2021 05:04 Lorch wrote:
Lol this pool really speaks for the quality of sc2's design, so many nos.
People voting yes on the marauder, literally the worst designed RTS unit of all time, is really sad though.
this community is full of people who think only them know the magical solution to create the perfect game that will instantly become the most popular one in the world while the professionals working in game design for years are a bunch of losers who will never be as competent as them.
So I think this says more about the community than about the quality of sc2 design.
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SC3 shouldn't borrow much of anything from SC2. I want the same magnitude of change we got jumping from Warcraft 2 to WarIII
Air
Ground
Underground / Burrowed
make burrowed units a core unit type, accompanied by fundamental changes to the top-down player perspective, terrain depth, sight / vision, minimap and detection. I imagine the TAB key would be used to switch from top-down air and ground perspective to a whole new underground battlefield. idk, maybe I've been playing too much WORMS
mines are awesome. I love mine-fields, booby traps, remote detonation (like the baneling), timed bombs and proximity detonation. hate widow mines though. it simply doesn't feel like a mine
I'd like to see the underground realm greatly expanded upon in SC3. I want the earth itself to be a resource that can be dug into vast tunnel networks. trees and lumber have a small impact in wc3. they free up space to build structures, create new pathways through the map, and there are some cool custom games like tree-tag that take this idea further. a reimagined nydus worm and mechanical drilling / tunneling units would be core to the gameplay
ledge-hopping units like reaper and colossus are interesting on paper, but the idea simply can't work to its fullest potential in sc2. I really loved the WoL campaign map that fills up with lava. ground units get fucked. I'd love to see a similar threat to air units, like dust-storms, and maybe even solar flares that would fuck up your mechanical / psionic units. sc2 is very strictly player vs player. I'm all for trying some player vs player vs environment, timed events, triggerable events. dustin browder was onto something with his destructable rock antics. maybe let that idea breathe a bit more instead of just being a sideshow like it is in sc2?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 07 2021 08:55 Draddition wrote:
I really don't understand all the hate towards Brood Lords; I guess horribly designed Swarm Hosts have stained the concept of "free" units.
I think Brood Lords are among the most interesting units in the game, with clear strengths and weaknesses. They also function more like Siege Tanks than other air units- abusing map terrain, not negating it like most air units. I think "free" units are also probably the best way to do Zerg tier 3, keeping alive the swarm style while letting Zergs have some expensive individual units.
Honestly, I'd like to see the Swarm Host get a similar functionality, where they can only attack while being at risk of retaliation and thus requiring support around them. My dream for the SH is to be a proper tier 3 ranged unit, not a relatively cheesy individual attack force.
What's wrong about a unit which flies and denies movement on the ground, I wonder? The biggest hate for broodlord is that you can't walk through broodlings and kill them, you have to kill the broodlings but then there are others.
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Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On September 07 2021 17:41 SHODAN wrote:
SC3 shouldn't borrow much of anything from SC2. I want the same magnitude of change we got jumping from Warcraft 2 to WarIII
Air
Ground
Underground / Burrowed
make burrowed units a core unit type, accompanied by fundamental changes to the top-down player perspective, terrain depth, sight / vision, minimap and detection. I imagine the TAB key would be used to switch from top-down air and ground perspective to a whole new underground battlefield. idk, maybe I've been playing too much WORMS
mines are awesome. I love mine-fields, booby traps, remote detonation (like the baneling), timed bombs and proximity detonation. hate widow mines though. it simply doesn't feel like a mine
I'd like to see the underground realm greatly expanded upon in SC3. I want the earth itself to be a resource that can be dug into vast tunnel networks. trees and lumber have a small impact in wc3. they free up space to build structures, create new pathways through the map, and there are some cool custom games like tree-tag that take this idea further. a reimagined nydus worm and mechanical drilling / tunneling units would be core to the gameplay
ledge-hopping units like reaper and colossus are interesting on paper, but the idea simply can't work to its fullest potential in sc2. I really loved the WoL campaign map that fills up with lava. ground units get fucked. I'd love to see a similar threat to air units, like dust-storms, and maybe even solar flares that would fuck up your mechanical / psionic units. sc2 is very strictly player vs player. I'm all for trying some player vs player vs environment, timed events, triggerable events. dustin browder was onto something with his destructable rock antics. maybe let that idea breathe a bit more instead of just being a sideshow like it is in sc2?
Yeah, I like some of these ideas.
I don’t foresee future attempts to make the next big PvP RTS being as mechanically demanding as SC2 is, so the next generation could do with injecting some other mechanics to keep depth and give players things to think about.
Maps as it stands are basically battle arenas, they don’t feel or function like fields of war.
You could have different terrain types that regular troops move reasonably slowly or at full speed over, creating different paths. Do you cut paths through trees in advance to dig in defensive positions and meet it head on, or do you use a combination of skirmisher units and drop ships and set up a big giant flank? Your skirmish type units could be relatively weak vs stock combat troops, but be able to travel much faster over certain types of terrain.
Positioning in SC2 is important, but how you choose to get there is largely moot outside of what paths exist.
But yeah, I’ve seen more environmental stuff in other games and feel if it’s implemented in an intuitive manner it could add a lot of both depth, as well as variety too.
Maybe visibility changes that alters sight range and chance to hit with the weather. Or a day/night cycle or whatever. Charging an entrenched position with tanks in broad, clear daylight sees your Manlots massacred, but next game there’s a similar setup and your boys saunter through a sandstorm and you’re on top of your opponent’s position almost before they know you’re there. Maybe next game in your Bo3 your opponent gets the ‘sandstorm incoming’ warning and mines up the approach and you decide to reuse your tactic of charging through the sandstorm and most of your Zealots are separated into meaty chunks before they can get into contact with the enemy.
We’re both spitballing of course, no doubt if we were to be stuck in charge of some project it’d be awful, but as the core premise that the environment should actually do more to change gameplay I think is sound.
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Mexico2170 Posts
On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army
Eh, this would make the game worse.
1.-The Phoenix doesn't micro itself, and in fact it's very time consuming, that's why no one makes them agaisnt mutas. You have to constantly move them around and react quickly if mutas turn around and you simply cannot stop moving them. This means that while that is happening you cannot look away, at all. If you do and mutas turn around, the phoenixs continue moving forward and they get in range of the mutas and just die for example. And if you "a+click" the phoenix, they don't hit while moving (fun fact). It's so incredibly attention intensive that if you say they micro themselves it just tells me you've never used them.
2.-Stalker blink is one of the greatest abilities in the game, imo. Why would they remove it just because it has limitless potential? The ebtter you are the better you can get with it. In that case remove most micro units then and just have a game full of roaches. Bye marines! You can micro them.
Also, it's not that hard to balance. Stalkers suck. Specially in lotv. Stalkers don't scale well, and trade badly agaisn't every armored unit, except maybe the roach. There comes a point where even the best blink micro won't save you of your army just being destroyed. In WoL and HotS blink was more useful, since the early was longer the Stalker had a longer window of viability. In LotV, even with the stalker attack stat buff, we don't see that kind of blink micro almost ever anymore. Because the window of usefulness is much shorter (while still having it's uses, but more than "blink micro" is blink forward to snipe and backwards to run).
Furthermore, things like fungal stop stalkers from blinking. Force fields also have counterplay now with ravagers and you can put units in medivacs and save them, hence why they are barely used anymore. But I agree they were too strong in early expantions.
On September 07 2021 08:55 Draddition wrote:
I really don't understand all the hate towards Brood Lords; I guess horribly designed Swarm Hosts have stained the concept of "free" units.
I think Brood Lords are among the most interesting units in the game, with clear strengths and weaknesses. They also function more like Siege Tanks than other air units- abusing map terrain, not negating it like most air units. I think "free" units are also probably the best way to do Zerg tier 3, keeping alive the swarm style while letting Zergs have some expensive individual units.
Honestly, I'd like to see the Swarm Host get a similar functionality, where they can only attack while being at risk of retaliation and thus requiring support around them. My dream for the SH is to be a proper tier 3 ranged unit, not a relatively cheesy individual attack force.
BL were a problem long before swarmhost. The worst meta of the game had swarmhost. The second worst was Brood Lord Infestor. But I agree they aren't as bad as they used to be with the new tools terran and toss have.
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Poland3748 Posts
On September 03 2021 14:28 Zambrah wrote:
I personally really hate Widow Mines, I have varying opinions on basically every other unit based on perceived strength vs. playability, but I really hate Widow Mines in particular for how swingy they are.
Me to. Also they are not mines.
On September 03 2021 23:55 RogerChillingworth wrote:
Brood War would be a good starting point for sc3. Some kind of blending of the best ideas from both games might also work.
^-- This. There are some interesting BW units that might make a comeback over sc2 replacements. Science Vessel over Raven although maybe not with this mech-healing spell it has in campaign. Medics over medivacs because the idea of spaceship shooting healing ray down on people doesn't feel right. Vultures with Spider Mines are in my mind preferable to having hellions and widow mines. Plus hellions trasnformers option to become hellbat is horrible to me. Bring back hellbats. Defiler's felt a lot more fun than Viper are. Void rays feel really cool but I believe they should damage units in continuous way rather than in chunks (based on animations). Dark Archon making a comeback would be nice as well.
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Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army
1. Phoenixes and auto-move shot I don’t really like, but they’re a really interesting harass unit. They need constant attention to do anything to ground forces, graviton also has some straight combat utility and can even save your own units, plus you have to pool energy and decide how to use it.
If anything at a core, non-balance sense just purely looking at the unit, I think the Phoenix is one of the most interesting and best-designed units (as a harasser). I don’t really like moving shot and the range increase, but that’s a balance thing as much to give Protoss a tool against mutas.
2 and 3. Doesn’t this basically cover well-controlled bio? There’s a whole slew of anti-bio measures, be they units or spells in the game, but it’s rarely a case of a player outmicroing the bio with their stock units.
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On September 08 2021 01:28 [Phantom] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army Eh, this would make the game worse. 1.-The Phoenix doesn't micro itself, and in fact it's very time consuming, that's why no one makes them agaisnt mutas. You have to constantly move them around and react quickly if mutas turn around and you simply cannot stop moving them. This means that while that is happening you cannot look away, at all. If you do and mutas turn around, the phoenixs continue moving forward and they get in range of the mutas and just die for example. And if you "a+click" the phoenix, they don't hit while moving (fun fact). It's so incredibly attention intensive that if you say they micro themselves it just tells me you've never used them.
When I chase mutas with other mutas I can't just stay in range, I have to attack every single time
Phoenix you just have to keep in range, you can just use the mouse, don't even have to use the keyboard
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Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On September 10 2021 01:32 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2021 01:28 [Phantom] wrote:On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army Eh, this would make the game worse. 1.-The Phoenix doesn't micro itself, and in fact it's very time consuming, that's why no one makes them agaisnt mutas. You have to constantly move them around and react quickly if mutas turn around and you simply cannot stop moving them. This means that while that is happening you cannot look away, at all. If you do and mutas turn around, the phoenixs continue moving forward and they get in range of the mutas and just die for example. And if you "a+click" the phoenix, they don't hit while moving (fun fact). It's so incredibly attention intensive that if you say they micro themselves it just tells me you've never used them. When I chase mutas with other mutas I can't just stay in range, I have to attack every single time Phoenix you just have to keep in range, you can just use the mouse, don't even have to use the keyboard
Which I don’t overly like, it’s as much a problem with the muta as it is the Phoenix, which I think is one of the better-designed units in its other roles.
Protoss’ soft counters to mutas weren’t great even before they had their regen, now they are terrible. Which borderline necessitates a hard counter.
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As many people here, I think using BW as a starting point would be a good idea. I think it's a better designed game in many ways. I'd say that the maps feeling a lot like battle arenas that WombaT mentioned is largely an SC2 thing. The terrain plays an important role in BW, with chokes, high ground or how exposed the mains/naturals are being central to how each map is played. There is more positional play and reinforcing your army is not as straightforward. I think SC3 should go in that direction - making terrain and logistics a key part of the game.
SC2 does have some cool mechanics and unit interactions, though, such as creep spread or Banelings vs. Marines to name a few. One thing I'd change about creep spread is making Creep Tumors visible but harder to kill (maybe not as hard as eggs, but hard). That would give the Terran players less incentive to scan creep randomly. I haven't followed SC2 that much since WoL, but from what I've noticed Baneling traps have become rarer as people got better at creep spread. There's just less room to hide your Banelings. I'd also remove Queens and make Drones build Creep Tumors instead and allow each Creep Tumor to make 2-3 new ones.
As for Terran, I think the race should go back to its roots. Positional play should play a central role again. I've noticed that it's much less common in SC2. The MUs also look much more similar to one another. In BW, the way Siege Tanks were used or positions secured was very different in each MU. In TvT you'd see Tank lines stretching across half of the map or stray Tanks deployed in key chokes/high grounds. In TvP you'd see Terran build entrenched positions with Tanks, Spider Mines, Depots, Turrets and even Bunkers or slowly push towards the enemy while covering the flanks with mines. In TvZ you'd play it similarly to SC2 - move as far as you can and siege up. Each race also had multiple ways of engaging those Terran positions or bypassing them.
There are some mechanics from other games that I'd like to see borrowed. Someone mentioned having two classes of air units - one with regular attack and another with a limited payload. I think that would mesh with Terran really well. Perhaps Banshees could be turned into such bombers. Their attack could be as strong as Yamato Cannon, but they'd have to go back to the Starport after each shot (maybe Starport could have multiple landing add-ons?). This would give the Terran the incentive to bring the Starports closer to the front line.
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Alright,
The unit that i hate the most is the Swarm Host.
I definitely do not want to see it ever again.
Then there is a package of units that i strongly do not like but maybe with heavy changes they might work but frankly, why even bother:
Hellbats, cyclone, tempest, mothership, ravager, adept
Next are units that i like but they need to be more or less reworked:
queen, infestor, viper, sentry, void Ray, widow mine, corruptor, Thor, immortal, battlecruiser, roach, lurker, raven
With rest i am mostly fine with some slight adjustments.
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I also mostly kept Broodwar units and deleted SC2 ones, particularly protoss air and the more gimmicky new units. I'm a little torn on some of them though, as while I like watching pros using banelings and widow mines, I don't enjoy them at all in my own games, as the skill requirement is too high, which makes them frustrating.
One thing I love about SC2, which I hope gets more attention in future RTS games, is the amazing unit pathing and responsiveness. Controlling fast zerglings feels so, so good. They move like obedient, flowing water.
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On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
Zerglings imba.
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Dark got good playstyle so we should vote in favor of the units he uses: roach, ravager, and infester.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 10 2021 01:32 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2021 01:28 [Phantom] wrote:On September 07 2021 13:26 iopq wrote:
Very simple decision making process:
1. Is the unit microing itself? Then cut it. Example: phoenix with auto-shoot while moving.
2. Can an AI win with a thousand APM microing this unit? Then it's too powerful with micro and hard to balance. Example: stalker blink
3. Does the unit prevent your opponent from being able to do anything? If there's no counter play other than "regret your choices" then it shouldn't be a thing. See: infestor, sentry
it's incredibly lucky in brood war the spell that prevents you from moving (maelstrom) is very expensive to use because the unit is 4 supply, and queen ensnare only slows you down so you CAN move a little bit at least
most annoying brood war spell is mind control, since as Zerg I have no counter play at the end of the game when minerals are running out, the protoss eventually will take over my army Eh, this would make the game worse. 1.-The Phoenix doesn't micro itself, and in fact it's very time consuming, that's why no one makes them agaisnt mutas. You have to constantly move them around and react quickly if mutas turn around and you simply cannot stop moving them. This means that while that is happening you cannot look away, at all. If you do and mutas turn around, the phoenixs continue moving forward and they get in range of the mutas and just die for example. And if you "a+click" the phoenix, they don't hit while moving (fun fact). It's so incredibly attention intensive that if you say they micro themselves it just tells me you've never used them. When I chase mutas with other mutas I can't just stay in range, I have to attack every single time Phoenix you just have to keep in range, you can just use the mouse, don't even have to use the keyboard
Yeah but Pheonix also explode if anything toutch them, you have to anticipate the movements of the mutalisk to stay just in the sweet spot while the zerg can try to cut back and jump on you/create a hole.
It's way more micro to win a pheonix vs mutmut fight than to chase down a smaller pack of mutalisk with more muta where all you gotta do is spam a-click and the other can do jack shit.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I'm curious. Why do people not like the tempest?
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EPT
