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RDaneelOlivaw
Vatican City State733 Posts
On September 04 2021 04:18 FabledIntegral wrote: God help anyone who voted yes to void ray. Give me a void with the old charging mechanic and I might vote yes. I'm not sure if it would've been good for balance, but watching the pros develop amazing charge micro over the last decade would have been a lot of fun | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
1. Queen - way too overpowered in preventing most early aggression 2. Viper - don't like the abduct ability, feels like it messes up PvZ a bit too much Terran 3. Reaper - don't like the fact that it's a unit that becomes completely obsolete once the early game is over Toss 4. Shield batteries - overcharge is a bit too powerful in the early game (as armies have lower total DPS) | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On September 04 2021 04:16 phodacbiet wrote: The more I vote no on units the more I realize I don't really like a lot of the units in sc2. I think the only unit I voted to keep was the reaper (with changes) because I like the unit's interaction. But other than that the rest seems meh. Most of the hero units should go, imo. Isn't there just the one? Hero unit I mean. | ||
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Luolis
Finland7155 Posts
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Solstice245
United States145 Posts
I voted "Maybe with some changes" since overall I actually quite like the idea of the unit. I just don't think Locusts should be free. Make each Locust cost something like 15 minerals, rebalance around that, and I think you have a serviceable unit. | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
On September 04 2021 01:20 Arceus wrote: It's been 10 years and everyone still hates the swarm host and nobody ever uses it besides the odd games. The single worst unit in the history of RTS? There were some points in time when swarm hosts were an important part of the meta. And like you said, they still do get used occasionally. The Scout though? It's been unused since before the swarmhost was even invented. It wins worst unit hands down. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45215 Posts
On September 04 2021 08:03 Solstice245 wrote: It seems my most controversial vote was on the swarm host ;p I voted "Maybe with some changes" since overall I actually quite like the idea of the unit. I just don't think Locusts should be free. Make each Locust cost something like 15 minerals, rebalance around that, and I think you have a serviceable unit. Sounds like a burrowed reaver! | ||
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Husyelt
United States837 Posts
StarCraft 3 should feel like a completely new game, with fully new macro / resource mechanics. And the new units can compliment those. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
Z-median = 43 Z-standartdeviation = 23.6 T-median = 39 T-standartdeviation = 13.9 P-median = 43.5 P-standartdeviation = 16.2 Zerg race seems to be the most unsatisfied between balance among their units.. with a standart deviation (factor 1) we get : Z_median + 1 x Z-standartdeviation = 66.6 T_median + 1 x T-standartdeviation = 52.9 P_median + 1 x P-standartdeviation = 59.7 Units removed : Z : Corruptor & Swarm Host T : Hellbat & Cyclone & Widow Mine P : Adept & Disruptor & Tempest Note : the hellbat is removed .... As BC isn t included in stats we don t know if it would be removed ... The viper isn t removed (?!) Now if you fix the factor in order to remove the viper (factor=0.59), you have now to remove : Zerg : Viper, + Lurker Terran : + Liberator Protoss : + Void Ray, + Mothership It s hard to get a conclusion from this without a graphic, honestly i don t know why Hellbat are such in a terrible position while their design (like viking) is obviously fun and enjoyable. Then you can get two packs : Controversial units cause lack of design & integration in game (let s say at master level) : SwarmHost, Lurker, Cyclone, Widow mine, Adept, Disruptors And Tempest Controversial units among Air units : Viper*, Corruptor, Tempest, Liberator, Void Ray and MotherShip Which would mean only Oracle and Ravager would be kept after HOTS and LOTV (why not Hellbat ?) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
What I wouldn’t do is give one race crazily microable units and leave the others to need power units or swarms to compensate. Warp gate necessitates a lot of trade offs that I don’t overly like either. The races should play differently, but have roughly equivalent mechanical demands on them. Micro is fun too, to a point! When I play Terran I feel I’m having to micro way harder than my opponent, and playing Toss I’m feeling I don’t have enough opportunities to micro outside of the early game. I don’t think either is overly desirable. If I was to remove units? Teleporting BCs would be one thing, but outside of that most individual units seem mostly OK to me. They wouldn’t necessarily resurface in the same faction, but fundamentally most seem good thru excellent RTS units with specific roles, weaknesses/strengths and flavour. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On September 04 2021 18:18 Vision_ wrote: I ve done some statistics on unsatisfaction by races (stats with the 'no' answer) Z-median = 43 Z-standartdeviation = 23.6 T-median = 39 T-standartdeviation = 13.9 P-median = 43.5 P-standartdeviation = 16.2 Zerg race seems to be the most unsatisfied between balance among their units.. with a standart deviation (factor 1) we get : Z_median + 1 x Z-standartdeviation = 66.6 T_median + 1 x T-standartdeviation = 52.9 P_median + 1 x P-standartdeviation = 59.7 Units removed : Z : Corruptor & Swarm Host T : Hellbat & Cyclone & Widow Mine P : Adept & Disruptor & Tempest Note : the hellbat is removed .... As BC isn t included in stats we don t know if it would be removed ... The viper isn t removed (?!) Now if you fix the factor in order to remove the viper (factor=0.59), you have now to remove : Zerg : Viper, + Lurker Terran : + Liberator Protoss : + Void Ray, + Mothership It s hard to get a conclusion from this without a graphic, honestly i don t know why Hellbat are such in a terrible position while their design (like viking) is obviously fun and enjoyable. Then you can get two packs : Controversial units cause lack of design & integration in game (let s say at master level) : SwarmHost, Lurker, Cyclone, Widow mine, Adept, Disruptors And Tempest Controversial units among Air units : Viper*, Corruptor, Tempest, Liberator, Void Ray and MotherShip Which would mean only Oracle and Ravager would be kept after HOTS and LOTV (why not Hellbat ?) except for the swarm host, the brood lord, and the infester I actually think the zerg roster is pretty well done in sc2. I think its mainly just that if in sc3 if we got a zerg with the same macro mechanics as sc2, I could see a very different unit roster fitting in and also being alot of fun. I think true to their lore zerg would be very adaptable to change. As long as you keep the zergling, keep the massed production of low supply units, keep lings, keep mutas, and maybe keep banes the zerg identity would carry into a new game. Thiers a lot of creative room to come up with cool new zerg units and mechanics. As for the hellbat. I think the hellbat at least with how it works in sc2 kind of sucks, basically you make this unit vs zerg to allin them in the early stage of the game. Thats it for the most part, thier are a few other situations but due to thier slow speed, low range and poor cost effeceny, they realy are not all that usefull, at least in thier current form if they were to stay I would want significant number tweeks but honestly I would just want something different for terran. If its a new game we should get alot of new units, just keep the units and mechanics that have become core to the identy of each race. or have worked really well in sc2 to create fun and interesting gameplay. With regards the viking, I would rather see ground to air be the predominant answer to air units for all races. Maybe give every race some kind of fighter unit like mutas, phonixes and wraiths and some big air unit that is vulnerable to its counters on the ground but that can abuse mobility. If we wanted to go more out thier I would really like to see bomber units like in command and conquer in an sc3. Air units that have a payload of attacks, and when they are out they have to go back to base, it might just not fit the far future theme of sc2 well though. But they have been really cool in other rts games. In general I just want the focus of interactions to remain on the ground for the majority of games, So I think if you put the best anti air on the ground it helps with that. Right now their comes a point where to fight the air you have to go air yourself which greatly contributes to the air deathball problem. Thier are a few exceptions to this like thors, and darks queen ultra infestor spore comp in zvp. But in general and for most of sc2 if your opponent massed air you also had to mass air which ruins the ground game in some matchups. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5739 Posts
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Vision_
870 Posts
On September 05 2021 01:26 maybenexttime wrote: I think they could combine Firebats with Reapers and give them a midgame (tier 2.5) upgrade that makes them beefier and allows them to jump distances like Assault Space Marines from WH40k. They would be an option vs. Protoss when it comes to protecting Tank lines and possibly useful for sniping HTs. Against Terran, they could work like Zealot bombs, and versus Zerg they'd be potent at harassment and clearing creep, and maybe engaging Lurkers+Dark Swarm if it's back. Yeah it s a very good sense of rework imo. I would remove the hellion in this way hellbat would be the upgrade of reaper. I m not sure if it s really better to give an ability to teleport because it will overlap with stalker and make Protoss lose a bit of consistency. Imo the design of most of units in SC2 are good in term of background and interesting in term of uniqueness. It would be sad to see another ability paste from what already exist. Maybe extend the way on how the unit is made, i.e to cross maps, harass and escaping units.. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3690 Posts
People voting yes on the marauder, literally the worst designed RTS unit of all time, is really sad though. | ||
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Vision_
870 Posts
It s easy to understand, if banelings are supposed to be stronger in mass number they must also follow a rule of a critical mass. Blizzard reach to make this part of the game amazing, but for pro only if i could modify banelings I would suggest to have an enormous Banelings with 1 or 2 armor (to make things more smooth in term of critical mass), with a supply cost equal to one but enable to explode also and hurt friendly Banelings with his own acid in order to create a snowball effect in what we can call a 'killing spree' (?!). Once acid covers the ground, vapors will create an area where bio ennemies units receive low damage. In other hand, stimpack wouldn t be so strong, it means the speed of the units is only increased by 25% (for example) It is the simpliest solution i ve found to resolve the baneling problem | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
But I totally understand why the vast majority likes them pesky killer butterflies. Still, don't remove mutalisks. Just make them weaker in their original form (and allow easier and cheaper tech to corruptors or broodlords). More of a transition unit. To boost early game anti-air, bring back SCORGU!!! | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On September 05 2021 05:04 Lorch wrote: Lol this pool really speaks for the quality of sc2's design, so many nos. People voting yes on the marauder, literally the worst designed RTS unit of all time, is really sad though. The only thing wrong with the Marauder is that it has a slow. Other than that, its basically just a different form of roach/dragoon/standard infantry unit, so I don't understand what makes it particularly different to warrant the title of the "worst designed RTS unit of all time", especially compared with other garbage that's in the game. I dont mind the marauder that much. In fact compared to BW, where infantry is only viable in one singular match up, i prefer it. | ||
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washikie
United States752 Posts
On September 05 2021 10:42 WombaT wrote: Anyone played other more niche RTS games got some cool mechanics and ideas they’ve encountered for what could be in some, totally in development future SC3? I realy like how Air Works in the Red Alert three. They way they designed it is great, its very useful, but also not something that is the end all be all unit composition. I would love to see something like this brought into an sc3 since a major weekpoint of sc2 in my opinion is late game air deathballs. In red alert three there are 3 things that make air units function so much better than in SC2. 1. every faction has a dedicated ground to air unit, these units in large enough numbers are always more cost efficient than the air they fight. This means that thier will always come a point where air cannot form the backbone of your army, its always useful though since it provides mobility. harassment and forces a response from your opponent. 2. Air units are generally split into two types 1, air units that hover constantly like sc2 air units such as helicopters or blimps )with the exception of (jet tangu which cant shoot down and are less powerful then other air units) these units get wrecked by anti air, or 2, air units that use the hanger system. In Red alert three their are fighters and bombers that require hangers, they have limited ammo, or bombs and so they have to return to their hanger after exhausting it. This lets these units feel like air in todays warfare, they go in do a huge amount of damage in a bombing run or fighter engagement, but have to return to base afterwards. This inherently discourages the air deathball, since the most powerful and cost efficient air units are designed for hit and run tactics and bursts of damage to key targets. It also creates windows were the air army is not present and the ground army can gain ground and push towards the hangers. This really helps to prevent the static d+air standoffs that are so common in sc2 ultra late game and creates a tug of war/battle of attrition interaction between an air and ground army. I would really like to see a whole new approach to air units in an sc3 so that we don't get the bad late game deadlock that often happens in sc2. Maybe the fighter/bomber dynamic just does not make sense in a far future game where air units are spaceships, but i would really like a different system for air units that makes them temporary bursts of power instead of a constant looming deathball. | ||
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