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Germany339 Posts
Update:
We now added an indicator who can still qualify and who can not to the Liquipedia standing pages.
We will update that every morning. For EU and KR we basically will get updates with every match that gives EPT points, while NA, LA, CN and OC will probably only need an update after the DHM Last Chance Qualifiers concluded (and on Tuesdays the weeks after that).
For TW all is decided, so no updates needed there.^^
Of course all that ignores the seed granted via the combined ranking shenanigans, because for those we do not know the rules.
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Thanks for the update! It's not looking good for Lambo's chances to catch up with Elazer. He will have to finish higher than Elazer in one or two major tournaments, but looking at the bracket the chances of that happening in TSL 6 is slim to none.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 06 2020 17:58 JustPassingBy wrote:
Thanks for the update! It's not looking good for Lambo's chances to catch up with Elazer. He will have to finish higher than Elazer in one or two major tournaments, but looking at the bracket the chances of that happening in TSL 6 is slim to none.
Or win most of the remaining ESL Open Cups
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Germany339 Posts
with Lambo being eliminated from TSL6 now ShoWTimE has qualified mathematically. (It will still take some weeks until his Ro24 seed is mathematically secured though)
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United States33712 Posts
On December 06 2020 08:03 hjpalpha wrote:
Update:
We now added an indicator who can still qualify and who can not to the Liquipedia standing pages.
We will update that every morning. For EU and KR we basically will get updates with every match that gives EPT points, while NA, LA, CN and OC will probably only need an update after the DHM Last Chance Qualifiers concluded (and on Tuesdays the weeks after that).
For TW all is decided, so no updates needed there.^^
Of course all that ignores the seed granted via the combined ranking shenanigans, because for those we do not know the rules.
pretty sure heyoka clarified that it's GSL points + global for Korea and EPT points + global for everyone else, meaning it's almost certainly going to Korea unless Scarlett wins Last Chance.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 07 2020 04:36 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2020 08:03 hjpalpha wrote:
Update:
We now added an indicator who can still qualify and who can not to the Liquipedia standing pages.
We will update that every morning. For EU and KR we basically will get updates with every match that gives EPT points, while NA, LA, CN and OC will probably only need an update after the DHM Last Chance Qualifiers concluded (and on Tuesdays the weeks after that).
For TW all is decided, so no updates needed there.^^
Of course all that ignores the seed granted via the combined ranking shenanigans, because for those we do not know the rules. pretty sure heyoka clarified that it's GSL points + global for Korea and EPT points + global for everyone else, meaning it's almost certainly going to Korea unless Scarlett wins Last Chance.
Sinistro on that topic (3 days ago): "Details on the topic will be announced in the due time"
We will wait until we get something official.
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Katowice25012 Posts
There are no combined ranking shenanigans, players have either their points from GSL or their points from EPT, whichever one is higher, and then anything global on top. Players cannot combine points from both sides, it's a ranking where the standing in one or the other is what counts.
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Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett.
It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible.
- Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place.
- If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place.
Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed.
 ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA
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Germany339 Posts
On December 07 2020 07:47 Heyoka wrote:
There are no combined ranking shenanigans, players have either their points from GSL or their points from EPT, whichever one is higher, and then anything global on top. Players cannot combine points from both sides, it's a ranking where the standing in one or the other is what counts.
I still would call that a combined ranking, as it combines rankings from several regions and i would still call it shenanigans because i still think it is a pretty bad idea because it is not really comparable as it is easier to get points in certain regions compared to other regions. I know there is no good solution for it due to Covid but I still think this is one of the worst. Anyways I will still ignore that seed in the standings display as it still is theoretically possible for EU to get that seed, even though highly unlikely (probably KR will get its 19 seed ...). But we now created a page to display the combined rankings: ESL Pro Tour/2020/21/Standings/Combined
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On December 07 2020 07:47 Heyoka wrote:
There are no combined ranking shenanigans, players have either their points from GSL or their points from EPT, whichever one is higher, and then anything global on top. Players cannot combine points from both sides, it's a ranking where the standing in one or the other is what counts.
Nice to see that this dumb combined Rankings stop now. Special got invited to TSL and ASUS ROG based on combined Rankings instead of Gabe or Showtime. He even had relativly easy seeds (Group of life and a non- Korean respectivly) and still got last place (13 -16 and 17-32) in both events. Imo that Shows, it s a bad seeding process.
I agree with hjp in that regard, that it s substantially easier to get points in some regions, compared to others.
Also noteable is that Korea has 5 events, while the Rest of the world has only 3.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 07 2020 15:40 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 07:47 Heyoka wrote:
There are no combined ranking shenanigans, players have either their points from GSL or their points from EPT, whichever one is higher, and then anything global on top. Players cannot combine points from both sides, it's a ranking where the standing in one or the other is what counts. Nice to see that this dumb combined Rankings stop now. Special got invited to TSL and ASUS ROG based on combined Rankings instead of Gabe or Showtime. He even had relativly easy seeds (Group of life and a non- Korean respectivly) and still got last place (13 -16 and 17-32) in both events. Imo that Shows, it s a bad seeding process. I agree with hjp in that regard, that it s substantially easier to get points in some regions, compared to others. Also noteable is that Korea has 5 events, while the Rest of the world has only 3.
GSL ST1 gave no pts, so i would say 4 events and not 5 
Also I think you missunderstood, they still use combined rankings, they just do not want them called "combined ranking shenanigans" (as i understood it) and wanted to clarify that players can not earn pts from several regions to the combined rankings but just from 1 region (plus global pts).
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On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA
The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that.
No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair.
The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good:
- giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS
- letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings
This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based.
But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill).
With the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am not a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player not getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awesome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo.
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On December 08 2020 15:19 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that. No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair. The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good: - giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS - letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based. But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill). With the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am not a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player not getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awesome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo.
http://aligulac.com/results/search/?search=&after=&before=&players=Lambo 4049
Probe 4120&event=&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On December 08 2020 15:19 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that. No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair. The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good: - giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS - letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based. But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill). Woth the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am nit a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player nit getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awsome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo.
The system doesn't have the sole goal of getting the 36 best players to Katowice (determining who the 36 best players are given covid is pretty difficult but that's besides the point)--it also has the goal of supporting local scenes. The original system helped local scenes through allocation of Masters tournament qualifiers, with this system it helps local scenes partly through seeds to Katowice. You might not like it, but giving Oceania one Ro36 seed and giving players from SEA something to aim for adds more value to the SCII scene than giving that seed to European number eight.
It's all very well to call for a "fair and performance based" system, but let's not forget that it's Europeans that have disproportionately benefited from years of region-locking away Korean players. It's a bit hypocritical to call for a purely performance-based system as soon as promoting local scenes is no longer advantageous for Europeans.
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On December 08 2020 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2020 15:19 hjpalpha wrote:On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that. No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair. The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good: - giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS - letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based. But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill). Woth the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am nit a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player nit getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awsome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo. The system doesn't have the sole goal of getting the 36 best players to Katowice (determining who the 36 best players are given covid is pretty difficult but that's besides the point)--it also has the goal of supporting local scenes. The original system helped local scenes through allocation of Masters tournament qualifiers, with this system it helps local scenes partly through seeds to Katowice. You might not like it, but giving Oceania one Ro36 seed and giving players from SEA something to aim for adds more value to the SCII scene than giving that seed to European number eight. It's all very well to call for a "fair and performance based" system, but let's not forget that it's Europeans that have disproportionately benefited from years of region-locking away Korean players. It's a bit hypocritical to call for a purely performance-based system as soon as promoting local scenes is no longer advantageous for Europeans.
Yes.
We see the same System working in pretty much any other Major Sports event as well.
Fifa World Cup - the Spots are based on the contienent
Olympic games - some quotaa are based on world champs, some in continental championships
These Big events habe two goals, one is obviously determining the best competitor of the world, but the other one is giving every region a Chance to be in the spotlight, even just for a Brief Moment.
Thats why I firmly beliefe that Region locking has been a good thing in the past. And is good now as well. Because it gives lower regions a incentive to catch up. Like African countries in Football. Like oce in SC2. Like any non European Country besides China and USA at the olympic games.
World Championships with Players from 3 different countries are pretty meaningless to me, even if those are the top Players. It s meant to bring the whole world together.
I ve a background in a more traditonal Sport. Wider friends of meine have been at the olympic and I ve been competing at European and world championships as an amateur in an Non- Olympic Sport. So trust me on these analogies.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 08 2020 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
The system doesn't have the sole goal of getting the 36 best players to Katowice (determining who the 36 best players are given covid is pretty difficult but that's besides the point)--it also has the goal of supporting local scenes. The original system helped local scenes through allocation of Masters tournament qualifiers
The new system still does that with giving them spots to the global parts of the DHM Events. So i don't see any point in also giving them free seeds for IEM.
, with this system it helps local scenes partly through seeds to Katowice. You might not like it, but giving Oceania one Ro36 seed and giving players from SEA something to aim for adds more value to the SCII scene than giving that seed to European number eight.
I completely disagree. I want to see the best compete at the World Finals! I do not say OCE Players should have no option at all to qualify I just think maybe merging China, Asia and OCE regions and granting them 1 seed to Ro24 and 1-2 seeds to Ro36 together would be good. If then an OCE player is good enough that is fine, if not they just do not deserve to qualify.
It's all very well to call for a "fair and performance based" system, but let's not forget that it's Europeans that have disproportionately benefited from years of region-locking away Korean players. It's a bit hypocritical to call for a purely performance-based system as soon as promoting local scenes is no longer advantageous for Europeans.
I was never a fan of the region lock. That being said within the region locked Circuit System all regions were already given an advantage over EU players because of how the Challenger System worked with granting Points and EU still managed to get 5 out of 8 seeds in 2019 and 2018 (which makes 62.5%, while in the new System EU gets only 41.2%). The orig. 2020 EPT rules had the charm that Koreans were able to qualify via the Circuit Standings too.
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Germany339 Posts
On December 08 2020 16:58 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2020 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2020 15:19 hjpalpha wrote:On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that. No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair. The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good: - giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS - letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based. But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill). Woth the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am nit a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player nit getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awsome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo. The system doesn't have the sole goal of getting the 36 best players to Katowice (determining who the 36 best players are given covid is pretty difficult but that's besides the point)--it also has the goal of supporting local scenes. The original system helped local scenes through allocation of Masters tournament qualifiers, with this system it helps local scenes partly through seeds to Katowice. You might not like it, but giving Oceania one Ro36 seed and giving players from SEA something to aim for adds more value to the SCII scene than giving that seed to European number eight. It's all very well to call for a "fair and performance based" system, but let's not forget that it's Europeans that have disproportionately benefited from years of region-locking away Korean players. It's a bit hypocritical to call for a purely performance-based system as soon as promoting local scenes is no longer advantageous for Europeans. Yes. We see the same System working in pretty much any other Major Sports event as well. Fifa World Cup - the Spots are based on the contienent Olympic games - some quotaa are based on world champs, some in continental championships These Big events habe two goals, one is obviously determining the best competitor of the world, but the other one is giving every region a Chance to be in the spotlight, even just for a Brief Moment. Thats why I firmly beliefe that Region locking has been a good thing in the past. And is good now as well. Because it gives lower regions a incentive to catch up. Like African countries in Football. Like oce in SC2. Like any non European Country besides China and USA at the olympic games. World Championships with Players from 3 different countries are pretty meaningless to me, even if those are the top Players. It s meant to bring the whole world together. I ve a background in a more traditonal Sport. Wider friends of meine have been at the olympic and I ve been competing at European and world championships as an amateur in an Non- Olympic Sport. So trust me on these analogies.
There are also many sports that use a point/earning based qualifying system to events with wild card spots from Open events. Sure I can understand that some prefer the system you described, I just prefer a completly performance based one.
Btw. if we are talking about FIFA: I think FIFA, that corrupt conglomerate, should be kicked out of existence.
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So NA Qualifies by winning....Nothing? Yeah thats not fair, they deserve more spots
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On December 08 2020 17:57 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2020 16:58 dbRic1203 wrote:On December 08 2020 15:44 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On December 08 2020 15:19 hjpalpha wrote:On December 07 2020 16:00 sudete wrote:On December 07 2020 09:01 warnull wrote:Well that's unfortunate for Scarlett. It's also unfortunate that the combined ranking shenanigans is what prevented Scarlett from qualifying to Ro24 in the first place. The DH Winter NA groups were seeded via the combined ranking, which artificially inflated Scarlett's seed and deflated Neeb's seed, resulting in Scarlett playing vs Neeb earlier in the playoffs than otherwise possible. - Using the combined ranking, Scarlett was seeded into one group, and Neeb into the other. This resulted in Scarlett meeting Neeb in the semifinals. Scarlett lost that match, and again vs Neeb in the lower bracket finals, finishing in 3rd place. - If the correct ranking were used, Scarlett and Neeb would have been seeded into the same group. The playoff bracket structure ensures that Scarlett would not meet Neeb in the semifinals. If we assume Scarlett wins every Bo5 against players other than Neeb, then regardless of her result vs Neeb, Scarlett would finish the tournament in at least second place. Scarlett winning 1st or 2nd in DH Winter NA would have given her enough points to secure a Ro24 seed. https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2020/21/Masters/Winter/NA The big problem here is assuming that Scarlett necessarily wins "every bo5 against players other than Neeb". Even if she dodges Neeb until the finals, what makes us know for sure that she won't lose to Astrea before that? She did win the bo7 against Astrea during the previous NA final but lost the last 2 Bo5 prior to that. No the Problem is that this years EPT Rules are pretty unfair. The original plans that ESL/DH had for EPT were pretty good: - giving points only at the offline events and ESL Open Cups and not at Challenger events like in WCS - letting Global points from Koreans also count in the foreigner Standings This most likely would have resulted in 10+ EU players, 20+ KR players, 3-4 NA/LatAm and 1 Chinese players qualifying. It would have been fair and performance based. But Covid happened and ESL had to switch to a way worse System with regional divisions and a lot of Cross-Server play. Even though there basically was no other way it still is a very bad system compared to the orig. plans. On top of that i think they could have done a way better job with the prize pool and seed allocations (aka giving the lower regions like e.g. OC less money and way less seeds to Katowice 2021 because these regions do not have players that should compete at Katowice 2021 based on their skill). Woth the current system we have a player like Lambo (and i am nit a fan of his, just using him as an example because he will most likely be the best player nit getting a seed to IEM) probably not qualifying while a player like Probe will qualify. Probe might be a pretty awsome person (from what i heard), but skillwise he is years away from Lambo. The system doesn't have the sole goal of getting the 36 best players to Katowice (determining who the 36 best players are given covid is pretty difficult but that's besides the point)--it also has the goal of supporting local scenes. The original system helped local scenes through allocation of Masters tournament qualifiers, with this system it helps local scenes partly through seeds to Katowice. You might not like it, but giving Oceania one Ro36 seed and giving players from SEA something to aim for adds more value to the SCII scene than giving that seed to European number eight. It's all very well to call for a "fair and performance based" system, but let's not forget that it's Europeans that have disproportionately benefited from years of region-locking away Korean players. It's a bit hypocritical to call for a purely performance-based system as soon as promoting local scenes is no longer advantageous for Europeans. Yes. We see the same System working in pretty much any other Major Sports event as well. Fifa World Cup - the Spots are based on the contienent Olympic games - some quotaa are based on world champs, some in continental championships These Big events habe two goals, one is obviously determining the best competitor of the world, but the other one is giving every region a Chance to be in the spotlight, even just for a Brief Moment. Thats why I firmly beliefe that Region locking has been a good thing in the past. And is good now as well. Because it gives lower regions a incentive to catch up. Like African countries in Football. Like oce in SC2. Like any non European Country besides China and USA at the olympic games. World Championships with Players from 3 different countries are pretty meaningless to me, even if those are the top Players. It s meant to bring the whole world together. I ve a background in a more traditonal Sport. Wider friends of meine have been at the olympic and I ve been competing at European and world championships as an amateur in an Non- Olympic Sport. So trust me on these analogies. There are also many sports that use a point/earning based qualifying system to events with wild card spots from Open events. Sure I can understand that some prefer the system you described, I just prefer a completly performance based one. Btw. if we are talking about FIFA: I think FIFA, that corrupt conglomerate, should be kicked out of existence.
I just took Fifa as an example, because it s well known. I personally agree on your take on them as an orgainsation as well.
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