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I'm going to do my best to keep this from being a balance whine post, because we have enough of that. From an OVERALL perspective, I think the races are brilliantly designed -- Zerg is like an infestation or virus -- easy enough to stop if you take quick, decisive measures to keep it in check, but leave it alone for long enough and it will get out of control very fast. (The world is currently all too familiar with this phenomena, particularly us Americans.)
Remember when Scarlett was exploding onto the scene and her signature thing was that she was "really good at spreading creep?" That seems pretty quaint now, right? Almost every top zerg can spread creep like a maniac now, and it seems like all it takes is one failed push, harass that gets shut down, or one ling run-by getting through to allow zerg to "lock up" their side of the map by slapping down a ludicrous amount of creep, at which point they're pretty darn hard to break.
I mean, it's always a bit funny to look at early WoL games, but look at the creep spread of someone like "the macro machine" Idra vs. basically any pro zerg now and the difference is hilarious.
The creep mechanics have been relatively unchanged since the WoL beta (they were recently turned to light units and you can't cancel active spread anymore, but that's small stuff) -- what do you guys think? Has zerg creep spread at the highest levels gotten better than the game was designed to accommodate, or is zerg just finally living up to its correct potential?
If you had to pick something to change, would you rather see creep be harder to spread, easier to destroy, or for it to be easier to get into an ultimate army -- e.g. if Terran can get into a BC-centric sky comp (or something like that) after successfully turtling on 5-6 bases against a zerg with his side of the map creep-locked, the resulting push would be almost unstoppable?
I kind of like the last idea, as it would seesaw the initiative -- Terran/Protoss has the burden to slow zerg down in the early/early-mid game to slow down Zerg growth, zerg gets a huge advantage in the mid-late game if they're not slowed down, and then the burden shifts back to Zerg to close out T or P before they can get to their ultimate endgame, but that endgame comp would have to be either ludicrously powerful (basically OP) or significantly easier to get to than it is now, because the ability of zerg to tech-switch/re-max late game if their midgame econ has been allowed to get out of control is also a key feature of the race.
Well, this was my venture into balance exploration -- let me know what y'all think. And again, the main question is "have zergs become better at spreading creep than they were 'supposed' to be when the race was designed, and is that an issue?"
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Iraq16955 Posts
It's not true that creep has been unchanged. In LotV they increased the speed of creep spread and also increased the speed it recedes more than once. And of course there are other changes that affect the ease of creep spread (e.g. replacing envision with revelation can be seen as a buff for creep).
As to the question of "were pros 'supposed' to be so good at creep" that's a strange formulation of the question. Who cares what Blizzard intended in 2010? Pros have gotten better at creep spread, and there's still ample room for them to get even better (as seen in any high level archon match). The way things are now I don't think creep itself needs to be changed--there's other more promising things that could be nerfed like the viper, but of course maybe it'll need to be nerfed in the future.
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The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
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On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however.
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On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however.
I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments.
Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all.
And i am not sure how used rapidfire snipe was used, but i do know that we got snipe nerfed shortly after.
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On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all.
The effect is 100% the same...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same...
Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low.
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On September 26 2020 18:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same... Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low.
Oh my god.... The effect of "million infested terrans fly out in a second" is the same than as with scrollwheeling.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:43 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:24 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same... Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low. Oh my god.... The effect of "million infested terrans fly out in a second" is the same than as with scrollwheeling.
Yes, just like effect of "million snipes flying out in a second" or " million creep tumors flying out in a second" or what have you is indeed the same. Different is that subtle delay that pisses you off and no need for external software.
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On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only.
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On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only.
If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
The main reason is that players got better and that's all  IMO
Edit> to answer the thread title - well, kinda? The issue is that many design choices were based on the WoL. If it's size of maps, units or missing units. Both additions were building on that. The issue with Zerg is that it's a race built around having the better eco than the other player. Which got lost with the LotV changes to economics(you have to expand faster), thus they made changes upon changes while not touching the core mechanics/design choices of Zerg(Queen, APM dumps, cheap bad units). Basically the game needs a massive design overhaul, sadly this didn't and won't happen.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about.
So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd?
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On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd?
If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 20:17 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd? If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again.
No, that's literally what your argument is. Morphing units is literally an action that requires multiple actions done by holding down a button. I mean, i understand why you crusade so hard against rapidfire given that whenever terran finds a useful rapidfire ability it gets nerfed to oblivion or straight out removed, but that's not exactly a problem with concept, is it?
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On September 26 2020 20:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:17 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd? If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again. No, that's literally what your argument is. Morphing units is literally an action that requires multiple actions done by holding down a button. I mean, i understand why you crusade so hard against rapidfire given that whenever terran finds a useful rapidfire ability it gets nerfed to oblivion or straight out removed, but that's not exactly a problem with concept, is it?
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks...........................................................................................................................................................................
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On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks...
like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly,
dropping 8 mules on a fresh base,
yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers
warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts,
or ravager biles.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN.
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EPT
