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I'm going to do my best to keep this from being a balance whine post, because we have enough of that. From an OVERALL perspective, I think the races are brilliantly designed -- Zerg is like an infestation or virus -- easy enough to stop if you take quick, decisive measures to keep it in check, but leave it alone for long enough and it will get out of control very fast. (The world is currently all too familiar with this phenomena, particularly us Americans.)
Remember when Scarlett was exploding onto the scene and her signature thing was that she was "really good at spreading creep?" That seems pretty quaint now, right? Almost every top zerg can spread creep like a maniac now, and it seems like all it takes is one failed push, harass that gets shut down, or one ling run-by getting through to allow zerg to "lock up" their side of the map by slapping down a ludicrous amount of creep, at which point they're pretty darn hard to break.
I mean, it's always a bit funny to look at early WoL games, but look at the creep spread of someone like "the macro machine" Idra vs. basically any pro zerg now and the difference is hilarious.
The creep mechanics have been relatively unchanged since the WoL beta (they were recently turned to light units and you can't cancel active spread anymore, but that's small stuff) -- what do you guys think? Has zerg creep spread at the highest levels gotten better than the game was designed to accommodate, or is zerg just finally living up to its correct potential?
If you had to pick something to change, would you rather see creep be harder to spread, easier to destroy, or for it to be easier to get into an ultimate army -- e.g. if Terran can get into a BC-centric sky comp (or something like that) after successfully turtling on 5-6 bases against a zerg with his side of the map creep-locked, the resulting push would be almost unstoppable?
I kind of like the last idea, as it would seesaw the initiative -- Terran/Protoss has the burden to slow zerg down in the early/early-mid game to slow down Zerg growth, zerg gets a huge advantage in the mid-late game if they're not slowed down, and then the burden shifts back to Zerg to close out T or P before they can get to their ultimate endgame, but that endgame comp would have to be either ludicrously powerful (basically OP) or significantly easier to get to than it is now, because the ability of zerg to tech-switch/re-max late game if their midgame econ has been allowed to get out of control is also a key feature of the race.
Well, this was my venture into balance exploration -- let me know what y'all think. And again, the main question is "have zergs become better at spreading creep than they were 'supposed' to be when the race was designed, and is that an issue?"
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It's not true that creep has been unchanged. In LotV they increased the speed of creep spread and also increased the speed it recedes more than once. And of course there are other changes that affect the ease of creep spread (e.g. replacing envision with revelation can be seen as a buff for creep).
As to the question of "were pros 'supposed' to be so good at creep" that's a strange formulation of the question. Who cares what Blizzard intended in 2010? Pros have gotten better at creep spread, and there's still ample room for them to get even better (as seen in any high level archon match). The way things are now I don't think creep itself needs to be changed--there's other more promising things that could be nerfed like the viper, but of course maybe it'll need to be nerfed in the future.
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The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
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On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however.
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On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however.
I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments.
Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all.
And i am not sure how used rapidfire snipe was used, but i do know that we got snipe nerfed shortly after.
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On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all.
The effect is 100% the same...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same...
Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low.
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On September 26 2020 18:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same... Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low.
Oh my god.... The effect of "million infested terrans fly out in a second" is the same than as with scrollwheeling.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 18:43 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:24 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:21 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:12 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 18:11 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Rapidfire was there since the days of snipe spam in 2011, however. I don't think it was quite as used and for example scrollwheel infested terrans (basically the same thing) were banned in tournaments. Scrollwheeling commands is not supported by the game natively, so no, it is not the same thing at all. The effect is 100% the same... Not quite, actually. Rapidfire depends on keyboard delay/repeat rate, scrollwheeling is not. And trust me, you don't want to have your keyboard repeat delay set too low. Oh my god.... The effect of "million infested terrans fly out in a second" is the same than as with scrollwheeling.
Yes, just like effect of "million snipes flying out in a second" or " million creep tumors flying out in a second" or what have you is indeed the same. Different is that subtle delay that pisses you off and no need for external software.
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On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only.
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On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only.
If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'.
The main reason is that players got better and that's all  IMO
Edit> to answer the thread title - well, kinda? The issue is that many design choices were based on the WoL. If it's size of maps, units or missing units. Both additions were building on that. The issue with Zerg is that it's a race built around having the better eco than the other player. Which got lost with the LotV changes to economics(you have to expand faster), thus they made changes upon changes while not touching the core mechanics/design choices of Zerg(Queen, APM dumps, cheap bad units). Basically the game needs a massive design overhaul, sadly this didn't and won't happen.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about.
So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd?
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On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd?
If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 20:17 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd? If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again.
No, that's literally what your argument is. Morphing units is literally an action that requires multiple actions done by holding down a button. I mean, i understand why you crusade so hard against rapidfire given that whenever terran finds a useful rapidfire ability it gets nerfed to oblivion or straight out removed, but that's not exactly a problem with concept, is it?
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On September 26 2020 20:24 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:17 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:16 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 26 2020 20:09 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. If you don't understand the difference between being able to do things that should require multiple clicks by holding down a button and using the keyboard you have no idea what you are talking about. So, we should go back to BW way of morphing larva: all with a single press of button instead of sdddddddddddddddddddd? If that is what you got out of that, i recommend you never argue anything about design ever again. No, that's literally what your argument is. Morphing units is literally an action that requires multiple actions done by holding down a button. I mean, i understand why you crusade so hard against rapidfire given that whenever terran finds a useful rapidfire ability it gets nerfed to oblivion or straight out removed, but that's not exactly a problem with concept, is it?
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks...........................................................................................................................................................................
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On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks...
like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly,
dropping 8 mules on a fresh base,
yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers
warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts,
or ravager biles.
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Dominican Republic621 Posts
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN.
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On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles.
Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire.
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On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire.
I would rather spend my focus and energy on executing the build/strategy while playing the game than wearing down my body and equipment by mindlessly smashing the same button 20 times to make 20 units of the same type.
Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game.
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On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game.
If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back.
Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow.
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On September 26 2020 21:12 lolfail9001 wrote:
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow.
I'm still stunned that you're going on about making units when that is not what i ever talked about...
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On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others...
The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly).
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On September 26 2020 21:15 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others... The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly).
Nonetheless, the problem is real.
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On September 26 2020 21:18 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:15 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others... The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly). Nonetheless, the problem is real.
Yeah but it has nothing to do with rapidfire.
It's like blaming rapidfire when Protoss warps in 20 Zealots in my base instantly.
The problem is not how many clicks he did to do that but that it is legal to do so in the first place 
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel.
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Rapid fire on multiple commands was not intended by the developers. If it was, they would have showcased it as a feature on release. It's not referred to and can't even be activated using the in-game menu, albeit it doesn't require any external software. It is not comparable to being able to hold down keys to produce as Zerg, which was always intended and was used by everyone on release in 2010. Its gradual emergence over the years and eventual ubiquity has changed the game in ways that weren't foreseen and haven't been addressed. Its effect on balance and design is completely arbitrary and unplanned. I use it extensively but I wouldn't mind if it was removed.
As for creep spread getting faster since 2015, I would say it is around 60% due to rapid fire, 30% due to the reasons Aesto mentioned and 10% players getting better. Players were already good in 2015 (we're not talking about 2010 here) so I don't think that's the main reason.
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edit: my bad, my reading comprehension sucks. I agree with Justinian.
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On September 26 2020 21:34 Luolis wrote:
Why are you people still mentioning making units. Does anyone even read what i'm writing? Yes faster repeat rate for keyboard commands is fine. As for abilities that require multiple clicks, like spreading creep or dropping biles, you should not be allowed to do that by pressing down a single button. Read, people, read.
Uh, you seem to be the one that's not reading? I was supporting what you were saying. I said it's NOT comparable to making units. I was backing you up..........
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On September 26 2020 21:38 Justinian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:34 Luolis wrote:
Why are you people still mentioning making units. Does anyone even read what i'm writing? Yes faster repeat rate for keyboard commands is fine. As for abilities that require multiple clicks, like spreading creep or dropping biles, you should not be allowed to do that by pressing down a single button. Read, people, read. Uh, you seem to be the one that's not reading? I was supporting what you were saying. I said it's NOT comparable to making units. I was backing you up..........
Yeah i edited the post, apparently i cant read.
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I think it's partially a meta shift in that we realised how important it is to prioritise it (for example players now have dedicated creep re-spreading queens in lategame, because it's worth the supply), and as has been mentioned before the LotV economy of quick 3 base allows a lot of queen production early in the game.
I think the question is really: "is it imba?". IMO it probably is, in that Blizz made it easier to clear last patch, but that still hasn't made a huge impact. Probably next patch we will see something like energy cost increase or longer cooldown.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 21:13 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:12 lolfail9001 wrote:
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow. I'm still stunned that you're going on about making units when that is not what i ever talked about...
I just found that hilarious, little else, have a beer and chill out.
On September 26 2020 21:31 Justinian wrote:
Rapid fire on multiple commands was not intended by the developers. If it was, they would have showcased it as a feature on release. It's not referred to and can't even be activated using the in-game menu, albeit it doesn't require any external software. It is not comparable to being able to hold down keys to produce as Zerg, which was always intended and was used by everyone on release in 2010. Its gradual emergence over the years and eventual ubiquity has changed the game in ways that weren't foreseen and haven't been addressed. Its effect on balance and design is completely arbitrary and unplanned. I use it extensively but I wouldn't mind if it was removed.
As for creep spread getting faster since 2015, I would say it is around 60% due to rapid fire, 30% due to the reasons Aesto mentioned and 10% players getting better. Players were already good in 2015 (we're not talking about 2010 here) so I don't think that's the main reason.
Rapid fire on multiple (emphasis) commands is indeed something that should not be legal.
But it is also completely irrelevant to question of creep spread or spamming abilities (because no unit has 2 abilities you want to spam so much like you would spam snipe in 2011 or infested terrans whenever they exist). If anything, the race that benefits from it the most are toss.
Anyways, as was said before, everyone who cared knew about rapidfire by 2012 already, so it can't explain drastic growth in creep spread all on it's own. Amount of queens made actually does explain it (and the fact that LotV made massing queens early on the meta in both non-mirrors), and it is seriously hard to address it proper without directly nerfing creep tumors on top of nerfs already done.
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On September 26 2020 12:34 ScrappyRabbit wrote:"have zergs become better at spreading creep than they were 'supposed' to be when the race was designed, and is that an issue?"
All races have something they do that the designers didn't intend for at least intially in Wol, that was 10 years ago. There's been 2 expansions and many patches since. The designers never envisioned marine splitting against banelings (somehow!) or stutter step despite that been obvious and effective micro that has parallels in broodwar. Nor did they envision many strats and micro. It doesn't matter if an ability is better than the designers of SC2 had imagined it to be. It'll be a sad game if SC2 was limited to the very limited imaginations of their designers as opposed to the many entertaining games of pros since.
Zergs primarily became better at spreading creep due to increased queen usage. Before, you needed a queen dedicated to spreading creep; after their range was increased to patch over the vulnerability of Zerg in the early game, it became a given that there would be spare queens. But certainly the designers would have intended for creep spread to be expected otherwise it wouldn't had been an ability in the first place. 10 years and 2 expansions later it is an assumed design, with spread creep undegoing a few changes, including the big change being able to spread creep tumours on ramps, giving vision one level up, thus purposefully making creep easier to spread, rendering your point moot anyways as the design team purposefully made creep easier to spread. Today, Zerg spread creep as fast as the balance team wants Zerg to spread creep.
Is that an issue? No it isn't. This is a loaded question. Rather than ask if it is an issue, therfore implying it is an issue, the onus is on you to explain why creep spread is an issue. But you cannot or is unwilling to do so.
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8748 Posts
I think improvements to rapid fire technique + excess queen energy has made creep a lot easier than it used to be, as has been mentioned already. But praise Blizzard for rolling with it and trying to give stronger creep clearing tools to counter it (at least for PvZ, can't speak for tvz). If protoss wants to play a style with creep clearing tools, it's possible. Trap showed it vs reynor. At the same time, all defense and macro without caring about creep also seems viable, as stats has shown. And apparently this is even stronger as MMR goes down.
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On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN.
You seem to be operating under the assumption that creep is some sort of adventageous bonus to zerg. This is incorrect.
Creep is required to be on even footing. A zerg will never win against an equally skilled opponent without creep.
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On September 27 2020 00:07 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN. You seem to be operating under the assumption that creep is some sort of adventageous bonus to zerg. This is incorrect. Creep is required to be on even footing. A zerg will never win against an equally skilled opponent without creep.
Completely agree with this, creep is absolutely necessary to engage a Terran who knows how to split.
And Zerg wouldn't need to invest so heavily into Queens if they had more reliable early/mid game AA. At first the rise of fast BCs (trash meta imo) along with Oracle openers being so common place made heavy Queen counts into a sheer necessity, couple that with the threat of Hellbat pushes and as mentioned above, the need to engage Terran on creep, or at least slow them down while they clear the creep.
If a Terran is pressuring your 4th hatchery and you have no creep providing vision and speed, lol, you're in big trouble.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I don't completely agree it's necessary. You could flank or use infestors for example to slow units down, which was exactly what zergs did when their creep spread wasn't as good.
....what is this rapid fire "with multiple commands" you guys speak of....have I been playing wrong all this time?
I don't think creep spread is that big of a problem honestly.
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
On September 27 2020 04:43 [Phantom] wrote:
I don't completely agree it's necessary. You could flank or use infestors for example to slow units down, which was exactly what zergs did when their creep spread wasn't as good.
....what is this rapid fire "with multiple commands" you guys speak of....have I been playing wrong all this time?
I don't think creep spread is that big of a problem honestly.
Let’s say you remap an alternate to build a structure to e. Pylon is also e, so you can hold e to build a pylon.
Multiple alternates you can edit the hotkey profile to have the ‘build’ command to be also say, c, b and g.
So you can just hold c, b or g to build a cannon, battery or a gateway if you wanted.
Rapid fire warping (the best method) works like this.
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if zergs werent supposed to be good at creep spreading Blizzard would have nerfed it by now.
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For TvZ:
Creep has been nerfed recently so that hellions can kill it easily and it recedes faster.
Previously creep was literally OP bullshit and I would be the first person in this thread complaining about it.
At this point, creep is in a pretty good spot balance wise because zergs just lose fights off of creep.
I do not envy the balance team in a couple of years when people start complaining that zerg cannot fight off of creep. If you buff their armies then they become too strong on creep.
For PvZ:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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On September 27 2020 04:43 [Phantom] wrote:
....what is this rapid fire "with multiple commands" you guys speak of....have I been playing wrong all this time?
It's been changed a fair few times but you can bind alternate keys so pressing your hotkey counts as fast as left mouse button, which creates the effect as clicking as fast as your keyboard repeat rate. Was first popularised for spamming infested terrans on demand. No idea why they are calling it rapid fire though, as back then it was just simply called bind alternate hotkey which was self descriptive in itself.
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[B]No it isn't. This is a loaded question. Rather than ask if it is an issue, therfore implying it is an issue, the onus is on you to explain why creep spread is an issue. But you cannot or is unwilling to do so.
Fair enough, and good points. I would say it's an "issue" to the extent that at the top level, a Zerg can have a game won for 10+ minutes before the gg actually comes. If zerg gets well enough ahead to creep-lock their half of the map with an 80-85 drone count that allows them to print banelings/eventually get to Ultras, the game is pretty much over, but you see the other race stay in for a long, long time (relatively speaking) because they're obligated to look for miracle engagements that aren't going to come, until finally Zerg gets a big enough counter/gets up to Ultras and finally make their straight-on push. (I call it "anaconda Zerg.")
It's like when one boxer is significantly better than another one but doesn't have knockout power, so you see the opponent get chipped away at for 12 rounds when it was clear he was outmatched in the first round.
To use a Starcraft analogy, this reminds me the most of that late-HOTS meta when Terrans were playing ultra-turtle mech into BC (specifically Innovation and Flash), and if they were able to take all the bases they wanted to, they were effectively unbreakable and just waiting for their ultimate army to end the game. Of course, it wasn't the army they built into at 25 minutes that ended the game, but the hellion run-by at 3 minutes that allowed Terran to get to their comfort zone -- it just took another 22 minutes for it to become official.
Obviously, there's a lot of merit to the "if you can't win from that position, don't get in that position" argument, but I wonder if games could get a bit more dynamic if creep was easier to handle in the late-midgame.
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On September 26 2020 21:29 WombaT wrote:
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel.
You are wrong on the inject part.
Yes, you can find tutorials on rapid fire injecting, but that is not what pro players use.
For injects there are basically 2 efficient methods, some players use both in a single game, depending on the situation.
1. having your injecting queens hotkeyed then
(select inject queens group) (press shift) (press inject hotkey) (base cam 1) (click) (base cam 2) (click) (base cam 3) (click) (release shift).
There is no rapidfire involved in this. Advantage is that it is very fast, you can inject 3 bases very quickly. Drawback is that it is not consistent (just like with the rapidfire inject), because when one of the queens are low on energy, the others will start to wander/move around the map. Serral uses this method before lategame when they can spare the hotkey to have the inject queens on them, and they are sure that there is energy on all queens. For example in a longer mid game fight they would do this. Some zergs have all their queens on one hotkey group so they can do this inject then use the same group to plant tumors or respond to air (Dark).
2. base cam + box selecting queen + manual inject. this is slower but reliable, you only work with one base at a time, whatever queen(s) you can box select there, you grab it and inject the hatch with it. This is a slower but more reliable method.
(3. The rapidfire inject requires a keyboard that repeats both keys when you press two keys at once. You need a hotkeyed queen at all bases, which is a lot of supply later when you have 6+ hatcheries. And the queens will start to wander if they are low on energy. This is not used by any pro that I know of.)
Rapidfire does affect creep spread.
You have to ctrl+click on an active tumor to select all in the area, then press the spread creep / rapidfire key, and wave the mouse pointer around. You can spread a lot of tumors this way, but the tumors does not tend to fan away very well, they tend to stay together. This actually does not make creep spread much faster, you simply cover the creep path with more tumors. But that is very useful, because it takes more time to kill like 4 * n tumors than to kill only 1 set of 1 * n tumors in an area. I think selecting tumors one by one and spreading creep without RF is a cleaner technique. (Dark, Serral seems to do one by one).
DRG yesterday morning in GSL used RF to spread.
When a terran cleans a patch of creep, some zergs select creep queens and uses RF to plant new tumors (select creep queens) + (press shift) + (press inject / rf key) + (wave mouse) as a reaction, but it seems they sometimes, when they have the time, correct this to plant only a few.
I think RF is more important in throwing biles (quickly focus tanks/liberators/bcs overlords prizm or sometimes air), and I believe most of the pro zergs would be ok without RF creep spread.
Let's trade it for cyclone auto lock
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Zerg is to forgiving which is why the best Zerg players perform so consistently, they play an easier race argue all you want but if you look at mistakes made you cant argue against that fact.
This is another reason why Protoss players are so inconsistent because Protoss must play near flawless and on top this they easily get build order disadvantages they can't control.Which makes me sad because Stats is such a talented player but game is forcing him to play all inn PVZ which effectively robs him of his strengths.
Zerg and Terran can make a lot more mistakes and get more "attempts" to succeed.
I honestly can't believe big personalities in SC2 can sit with a straight face and say Zerg is balanced grow a damn spine people
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On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2.
I couldn t think my lecture of this thread will stop to the third posts
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
On September 27 2020 16:02 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:29 WombaT wrote:
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel. You are wrong on the inject part. Yes, you can find tutorials on rapid fire injecting, but that is not what pro players use. For injects there are basically 2 efficient methods, some players use both in a single game, depending on the situation. 1. having your injecting queens hotkeyed then (select inject queens group) (press shift) (press inject hotkey) (base cam 1) (click) (base cam 2) (click) (base cam 3) (click) (release shift). There is no rapidfire involved in this. Advantage is that it is very fast, you can inject 3 bases very quickly. Drawback is that it is not consistent (just like with the rapidfire inject), because when one of the queens are low on energy, the others will start to wander/move around the map. Serral uses this method before lategame when they can spare the hotkey to have the inject queens on them, and they are sure that there is energy on all queens. For example in a longer mid game fight they would do this. Some zergs have all their queens on one hotkey group so they can do this inject then use the same group to plant tumors or respond to air (Dark). 2. base cam + box selecting queen + manual inject. this is slower but reliable, you only work with one base at a time, whatever queen(s) you can box select there, you grab it and inject the hatch with it. This is a slower but more reliable method. (3. The rapidfire inject requires a keyboard that repeats both keys when you press two keys at once. You need a hotkeyed queen at all bases, which is a lot of supply later when you have 6+ hatcheries. And the queens will start to wander if they are low on energy. This is not used by any pro that I know of.) Rapidfire does affect creep spread. You have to ctrl+click on an active tumor to select all in the area, then press the spread creep / rapidfire key, and wave the mouse pointer around. You can spread a lot of tumors this way, but the tumors does not tend to fan away very well, they tend to stay together. This actually does not make creep spread much faster, you simply cover the creep path with more tumors. But that is very useful, because it takes more time to kill like 4 * n tumors than to kill only 1 set of 1 * n tumors in an area. I think selecting tumors one by one and spreading creep without RF is a cleaner technique. (Dark, Serral seems to do one by one). DRG yesterday morning in GSL used RF to spread. When a terran cleans a patch of creep, some zergs select creep queens and uses RF to plant new tumors (select creep queens) + (press shift) + (press inject / rf key) + (wave mouse) as a reaction, but it seems they sometimes, when they have the time, correct this to plant only a few. I think RF is more important in throwing biles (quickly focus tanks/liberators/bcs overlords prizm or sometimes air), and I believe most of the pro zergs would be ok without RF creep spread. Let's trade it for cyclone auto lock
Cheers for the clarification. Have not really dabbled in Zerg so got that one wrong!
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On September 27 2020 19:57 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 16:02 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 21:29 WombaT wrote:
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel. You are wrong on the inject part. Yes, you can find tutorials on rapid fire injecting, but that is not what pro players use. For injects there are basically 2 efficient methods, some players use both in a single game, depending on the situation. 1. having your injecting queens hotkeyed then (select inject queens group) (press shift) (press inject hotkey) (base cam 1) (click) (base cam 2) (click) (base cam 3) (click) (release shift). There is no rapidfire involved in this. Advantage is that it is very fast, you can inject 3 bases very quickly. Drawback is that it is not consistent (just like with the rapidfire inject), because when one of the queens are low on energy, the others will start to wander/move around the map. Serral uses this method before lategame when they can spare the hotkey to have the inject queens on them, and they are sure that there is energy on all queens. For example in a longer mid game fight they would do this. Some zergs have all their queens on one hotkey group so they can do this inject then use the same group to plant tumors or respond to air (Dark). 2. base cam + box selecting queen + manual inject. this is slower but reliable, you only work with one base at a time, whatever queen(s) you can box select there, you grab it and inject the hatch with it. This is a slower but more reliable method. (3. The rapidfire inject requires a keyboard that repeats both keys when you press two keys at once. You need a hotkeyed queen at all bases, which is a lot of supply later when you have 6+ hatcheries. And the queens will start to wander if they are low on energy. This is not used by any pro that I know of.) Rapidfire does affect creep spread. You have to ctrl+click on an active tumor to select all in the area, then press the spread creep / rapidfire key, and wave the mouse pointer around. You can spread a lot of tumors this way, but the tumors does not tend to fan away very well, they tend to stay together. This actually does not make creep spread much faster, you simply cover the creep path with more tumors. But that is very useful, because it takes more time to kill like 4 * n tumors than to kill only 1 set of 1 * n tumors in an area. I think selecting tumors one by one and spreading creep without RF is a cleaner technique. (Dark, Serral seems to do one by one). DRG yesterday morning in GSL used RF to spread. When a terran cleans a patch of creep, some zergs select creep queens and uses RF to plant new tumors (select creep queens) + (press shift) + (press inject / rf key) + (wave mouse) as a reaction, but it seems they sometimes, when they have the time, correct this to plant only a few. I think RF is more important in throwing biles (quickly focus tanks/liberators/bcs overlords prizm or sometimes air), and I believe most of the pro zergs would be ok without RF creep spread. Let's trade it for cyclone auto lock Cheers for the clarification. Have not really dabbled in Zerg so got that one wrong!
he's wrong about pressing shift. Nobody presses shift. Rest is correct. method is the same way, you're just not pressing shift when your creep tumor is already on a rapid fire key, youre just holding it down. With inject youre not pressing shift because youre hardly gaining anything by doing that, if anything it will mess up queens a bit more.
Pro zerg players actually up the repeat rate on their keyboard a ton. There are keyboards that have this functionality built in (Ducky), but there is also software that let's you do the same thing. It will change repeat delay and repeat rate values in the registry. Maybe up to 4 times faster than standard windows keyboard repeat rate. So this helps with rapid fire everything, but it also helps a ton with building units when spending like 30 larva in <0.5 second cuz of insanely high repeat rate and low repeat delay.
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I think the reason isnt because zerg is too good or whatever or players became to good, the reason is simple zergs builds lots of queens for defense, in old days you would get 1queen per hatch and 1-2 queens for creep spread, now you get like 5-8queens creep spreading and getting involved into fights (use banes/lings for attacks/runbies and use queens for defense), this actually is really balanced and well made strategy. Now the problem with this mass queen style is creep spread is insane and makes zerg seem OP.
How to solve this?
If you make queens for expensive you are nerfing entire race, which is bad idea.
Make creep more expensive mana wise, bad idea again, it wont solve the mass queen strategy and zergs still get more queens and every other playstyle will get nuked.
1. Possible solution
Make creep tumor actually cost mineral or gas, something like 30 minerals. Now when you trade units to kill tumors, you actually trading for minerals instead of energy, now zerg needs to decide if he wants 50 creep tumors to see everything, just like terran or protoss building depots/pylons sending marines and observers around the map and using scans.
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On September 27 2020 21:39 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 19:57 WombaT wrote:On September 27 2020 16:02 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 21:29 WombaT wrote:
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel. You are wrong on the inject part. Yes, you can find tutorials on rapid fire injecting, but that is not what pro players use. For injects there are basically 2 efficient methods, some players use both in a single game, depending on the situation. 1. having your injecting queens hotkeyed then (select inject queens group) (press shift) (press inject hotkey) (base cam 1) (click) (base cam 2) (click) (base cam 3) (click) (release shift). There is no rapidfire involved in this. Advantage is that it is very fast, you can inject 3 bases very quickly. Drawback is that it is not consistent (just like with the rapidfire inject), because when one of the queens are low on energy, the others will start to wander/move around the map. Serral uses this method before lategame when they can spare the hotkey to have the inject queens on them, and they are sure that there is energy on all queens. For example in a longer mid game fight they would do this. Some zergs have all their queens on one hotkey group so they can do this inject then use the same group to plant tumors or respond to air (Dark). 2. base cam + box selecting queen + manual inject. this is slower but reliable, you only work with one base at a time, whatever queen(s) you can box select there, you grab it and inject the hatch with it. This is a slower but more reliable method. (3. The rapidfire inject requires a keyboard that repeats both keys when you press two keys at once. You need a hotkeyed queen at all bases, which is a lot of supply later when you have 6+ hatcheries. And the queens will start to wander if they are low on energy. This is not used by any pro that I know of.) Rapidfire does affect creep spread. You have to ctrl+click on an active tumor to select all in the area, then press the spread creep / rapidfire key, and wave the mouse pointer around. You can spread a lot of tumors this way, but the tumors does not tend to fan away very well, they tend to stay together. This actually does not make creep spread much faster, you simply cover the creep path with more tumors. But that is very useful, because it takes more time to kill like 4 * n tumors than to kill only 1 set of 1 * n tumors in an area. I think selecting tumors one by one and spreading creep without RF is a cleaner technique. (Dark, Serral seems to do one by one). DRG yesterday morning in GSL used RF to spread. When a terran cleans a patch of creep, some zergs select creep queens and uses RF to plant new tumors (select creep queens) + (press shift) + (press inject / rf key) + (wave mouse) as a reaction, but it seems they sometimes, when they have the time, correct this to plant only a few. I think RF is more important in throwing biles (quickly focus tanks/liberators/bcs overlords prizm or sometimes air), and I believe most of the pro zergs would be ok without RF creep spread. Let's trade it for cyclone auto lock Cheers for the clarification. Have not really dabbled in Zerg so got that one wrong! he's wrong about pressing shift. Nobody presses shift. Rest is correct. method is the same way, you're just not pressing shift when your creep tumor is already on a rapid fire key, youre just holding it down. With inject youre not pressing shift because youre hardly gaining anything by doing that, if anything it will mess up queens a bit more. Pro zerg players actually up the repeat rate on their keyboard a ton. There are keyboards that have this functionality built in (Ducky), but there is also software that let's you do the same thing. It will change repeat delay and repeat rate values in the registry. Maybe up to 4 times faster than standard windows keyboard repeat rate. So this helps with rapid fire everything, but it also helps a ton with building units when spending like 30 larva in <0.5 second cuz of insanely high repeat rate and low repeat delay.
Wasn't Zowie celeritas banned because you could 8x rapidfire with it ? Never actually used it since you need to be plugged in PS/2 for it to work
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On September 27 2020 22:50 skdsk wrote:
I think the reason isnt because zerg is too good or whatever or players became to good, the reason is simple zergs builds lots of queens for defense, in old days you would get 1queen per hatch and 1-2 queens for creep spread, now you get like 5-8queens creep spreading and getting involved into fights (use banes/lings for attacks/runbies and use queens for defense), this actually is really balanced and well made strategy. Now the problem with this mass queen style is creep spread is insane and makes zerg seem OP.
How to solve this?
If you make queens for expensive you are nerfing entire race, which is bad idea.
Make creep more expensive mana wise, bad idea again, it wont solve the mass queen strategy and zergs still get more queens and every other playstyle will get nuked.
1. Possible solution
Make creep tumor actually cost mineral or gas, something like 30 minerals. Now when you trade units to kill tumors, you actually trading for minerals instead of energy, now zerg needs to decide if he wants 50 creep tumors to see everything, just like terran or protoss building depots/pylons sending marines and observers around the map and using scans.
I like this idea. I think 30 minerals may be even too expensive because you lose them a lot. Maybe experiment with 10 or so. This also makes it more rewarding to hunt creep, and maybe make the game more dynamic, because zerg cant spread creep everywhere as easily.
Other options that could be explored are that creep cant extend beyond a certain distance to a hatchery or that creep costs supply. The latter might be a bit too draining.
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On September 28 2020 00:40 Lucasmus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 22:50 skdsk wrote:
I think the reason isnt because zerg is too good or whatever or players became to good, the reason is simple zergs builds lots of queens for defense, in old days you would get 1queen per hatch and 1-2 queens for creep spread, now you get like 5-8queens creep spreading and getting involved into fights (use banes/lings for attacks/runbies and use queens for defense), this actually is really balanced and well made strategy. Now the problem with this mass queen style is creep spread is insane and makes zerg seem OP.
How to solve this?
If you make queens for expensive you are nerfing entire race, which is bad idea.
Make creep more expensive mana wise, bad idea again, it wont solve the mass queen strategy and zergs still get more queens and every other playstyle will get nuked.
1. Possible solution
Make creep tumor actually cost mineral or gas, something like 30 minerals. Now when you trade units to kill tumors, you actually trading for minerals instead of energy, now zerg needs to decide if he wants 50 creep tumors to see everything, just like terran or protoss building depots/pylons sending marines and observers around the map and using scans.
I like this idea. I think 30 minerals may be even too expensive because you lose them a lot. Maybe experiment with 10 or so. This also makes it more rewarding to hunt creep, and maybe make the game more dynamic, because zerg cant spread creep everywhere as easily. Other options that could be explored are that creep cant extend beyond a certain distance to a hatchery or that creep costs supply. The latter might be a bit too draining.
I'm in favor of trade-offs that the player needs to balance when deciding how to approach the game. That's something that makes the game fun. Whatever the solution - I'm not in charge of that, and I probably shouldn't be - the queen is objectively a Mary Sue unit. It's tanky, supply-efficient, good at supporting in fights, good at boosting macro, and good at increasing map vision.
I always find it frustrating when I commit 70% of my strategic thinking to clearing a certain spot on the map of creep (I can't exactly strategize around destroying production buildings, and strategizing around sniping tech buildings doesn't work more than once per opponent) then my army gets pushed back and another 2 queens just stroll in and drop 6 tumors like it's nothing.
I know asymmetric balance is a supremely tricky problem to tackle, but Terran and Protoss need to make strategic and economic sacrifices to obtain scouting information. That's a GOOD thing. Zerg gets free scouting information for spreading creep, which doesn't have a cost besides APM and not having queens to defend at the base. And because of the limited time a scan lasts, it's actually favorable for the zerg to just spam out as many creep tumors as the queens have energy.
Whatever Activision-Blizzard's solution ends up being, I just hope they make it more fun. As a Diamond Protoss it just feels like I need to invest 3 times as much effort into creating original strategies to catch the Zerg off-guard, and they each only work one time. Then the Zerg Borgs me by making one or two very small tweaks to their builds which are otherwise exactly the same every game. It's super discouraging.
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Another solution that would be more extreme, would be making creep tumors visible.
That would solve the problem of players needing to invest more to clearing creep than for zerg spreading it.
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On September 28 2020 01:25 skdsk wrote:
Another solution that would be more extreme, would be making creep tumors visible.
That would solve the problem of players needing to invest more to clearing creep than for zerg spreading it.
Or maybe delayed invisibility (30-60 seconds)? Might make some interesting creep tumour hunting dynamics. Opponent has to be equally active on the map to catch fresh tumours.
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On September 27 2020 21:39 Comedy wrote:
he's wrong about pressing shift. Nobody presses shift. Rest is correct. method is the same way, you're just not pressing shift when your creep tumor is already on a rapid fire key, youre just holding it down. With inject youre not pressing shift because youre hardly gaining anything by doing that, if anything it will mess up queens a bit more.
Pro zerg players actually up the repeat rate on their keyboard a ton. There are keyboards that have this functionality built in (Ducky), but there is also software that let's you do the same thing. It will change repeat delay and repeat rate values in the registry. Maybe up to 4 times faster than standard windows keyboard repeat rate. So this helps with rapid fire everything, but it also helps a ton with building units when spending like 30 larva in <0.5 second cuz of insanely high repeat rate and low repeat delay.
10+ (more than 2-3) tumors off of 2-3 creep queens
-> must be shift + RF (lot of lazy Z streamers do this, but they are not pros)
2-3 tumors off of 2-3 creep queens
-> either RF without shift,
or shift + RF with not enough queen energy,
or clean style (shift) + (spawn tumor) + 2-3x left click. 2019 Blizzcon Ro16 gr B Serral vs Time: https://imgur.com/a/nSZme8d (note the green line) he has 23 and 56 energy on the 2 creep queens, still queues 2 tumors at 11:13. There are more examples in this game.
Injecting without shift: i'm using the core, with which you can press and release the shift key basically freely (it's under your thumb, and it does not matter if you press it before or after inject command, all that matters is that you press it before the first left click). And when you have shift pressed you do not have to press the inject key again at the 2nd and 3rd bases. So if using std keyboard setup shift might be harder to reach and it is easier to just repeat the (cam) + (inject) + (left click) for each base without shift. But at least with core, injecting is faster with shift.
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On September 28 2020 02:05 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 21:39 Comedy wrote:
he's wrong about pressing shift. Nobody presses shift. Rest is correct. method is the same way, you're just not pressing shift when your creep tumor is already on a rapid fire key, youre just holding it down. With inject youre not pressing shift because youre hardly gaining anything by doing that, if anything it will mess up queens a bit more.
Pro zerg players actually up the repeat rate on their keyboard a ton. There are keyboards that have this functionality built in (Ducky), but there is also software that let's you do the same thing. It will change repeat delay and repeat rate values in the registry. Maybe up to 4 times faster than standard windows keyboard repeat rate. So this helps with rapid fire everything, but it also helps a ton with building units when spending like 30 larva in <0.5 second cuz of insanely high repeat rate and low repeat delay. 10+ (more than 2-3) tumors off of 2-3 creep queens -> must be shift + RF (lot of lazy Z streamers do this, but they are not pros) 2-3 tumors off of 2-3 creep queens -> either RF without shift, or shift + RF with not enough queen energy, or clean style (shift) + (spawn tumor) + 2-3x left click. 2019 Blizzcon Ro16 gr B Serral vs Time: https://imgur.com/a/nSZme8d (note the green line) he has 23 and 56 energy on the 2 creep queens, still queues 2 tumors at 11:13. There are more examples in this game. Injecting without shift: i'm using the core, with which you can press and release the shift key basically freely (it's under your thumb, and it does not matter if you press it before or after inject command, all that matters is that you press it before the first left click). And when you have shift pressed you do not have to press the inject key again at the 2nd and 3rd bases. So if using std keyboard setup shift might be harder to reach and it is easier to just repeat the (cam) + (inject) + (left click) for each base without shift. But at least with core, injecting is faster with shift.
ya of course if you want to queue up commands you use shift for tumors (like using shift for any queue'ed up command in the game). but we were talking normal situation. I don't know why shift isnt used for injects, it just isn't (ask any pro).
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On September 28 2020 03:06 Comedy wrote:
ya of course if you want to queue up commands you use shift for tumors (like using shift for any queue'ed up command in the game). but we were talking normal situation. I don't know why shift isnt used for injects, it just isn't (ask any pro).
Yea I did go back to Lambo's inject video just because of this thread, he doesn't use shift.
I think it's because of the standard-ish hotkey setup. I actually found the shift inject on some pages to be called the core inject method. I guess on the std setup its a bit awkward to press shift so pros would want to avoid it whenever they can.
And it must be the same situation with laying creep tumors, whenever they have some time, it is more precise to use shift. Otherwise just RF fuck it anything goes.
I believe you.
Actually your previous comment sounded like it was written by a ~26 year old canadian zerg pro with nice creep skills so I was extra careful to check anything I write -.-
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On September 27 2020 22:50 skdsk wrote:
I think the reason isnt because zerg is too good or whatever or players became to good, the reason is simple zergs builds lots of queens for defense, in old days you would get 1queen per hatch and 1-2 queens for creep spread, now you get like 5-8queens creep spreading and getting involved into fights (use banes/lings for attacks/runbies and use queens for defense), this actually is really balanced and well made strategy. Now the problem with this mass queen style is creep spread is insane and makes zerg seem OP.
How to solve this?
If you make queens for expensive you are nerfing entire race, which is bad idea.
Make creep more expensive mana wise, bad idea again, it wont solve the mass queen strategy and zergs still get more queens and every other playstyle will get nuked.
1. Possible solution
Make creep tumor actually cost mineral or gas, something like 30 minerals. Now when you trade units to kill tumors, you actually trading for minerals instead of energy, now zerg needs to decide if he wants 50 creep tumors to see everything, just like terran or protoss building depots/pylons sending marines and observers around the map and using scans.
you are implying that creep is a choice for zerg while it is a necessity. if you dont have creep in front of your 4th when terran is pushing you its gg. its not a choice of creep or units, you need both or you are dead because zerg units are trash off creep. you cant make creep cost money because then zerg wouldnt have either units or creep to defend timing attacks. it would make all sorts of all ins and timings super op in both zvp and zvt.
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I remember the days when we all admired July's ardent refusal to spread creep.
Good times. I mean, not really, I've never hated anything in SC2 as much as GomTvT, but also good times.
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I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage.
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On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage.
But you are robbing the Protoss of the opportunity to whine if they lose a game that didn't involve Viper.
This cannot work because Vipers are almost never used below Diamond and rarely below Masters, but Zerg is OP on all levels as is the general consensus here and on Reddit, right? It must be creep spread otherwise it's hard to fit Zerg OP narrative to every game. Blaming creep is much more convenient because it supports the point of all the whiners.
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On September 27 2020 04:43 [Phantom] wrote:
I don't completely agree it's necessary. You could flank or use infestors for example to slow units down, which was exactly what zergs did when their creep spread wasn't as good.
When Terran is pressuring your 4th, the last thing you're thinking about is infestors, and flanks can be prevented- in most recent Reynor/Clem matches you can see Clem, when pushing, separating a chunk of marines to the back to halt any potential flanks. Reynor has also tried burrowed infestors in the past against mech, but one scan and they get demolished.
Clem is an absolute monster, and you can see him consistently snipe banes even on creep, let alone off of creep, and his splits are insane. Without creep Reynor and Serral will get rolled over by Clem, like he has already done with lesser zergs. Zerg relies on good creep spread because it has to- you rarely see the zerg take fights off of creep on even ground because those are fights the zerg cannot win.
Making tumors cost 50 minerals is absurd; the earlygame is already so fragile and having the zerg sacrifice a drone's worth of minerals for a mechanic that's absolutely imperative for a chance to win the game is going to just remove zerg entirely. Zerg's units are designed to take cost inefficient trades, and if you can't have the economy to back that up then you just lose. Making tumors visible as well will render creep nowhere near viable; hellions move so quickly that even on large maps any terran will be able to kill almost the entire spread.
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On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage.
I pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly. Absolutely detest the Viper - it has so much utility on one unit. It's also super frustrating when I see vipers coming towards my army and I'm spamming feedback commands but the abduct still goes off. The 10 range vs 9 range doesn't feel like it matters since Vipers can fly / maneuver easier. I've watched replays where it really looks like feedback lands first but the abduct still goes through, it's weird. (I know thats not possible, just illustrating how incredibly thin the line is on stopping abducts, feels like the counter to it is inconsistent.) I definitely feel like a "Guaranteed kill on a very expensive unit" ability should cost more than 75 energy
.
To align it with PvT for example and how Patience has been playing it, I want to be able to retain my expensive units while being okay sacing my gateway units, slowly building a more and more powerful army -- You can't do that with the viper in the game, it just doesn't work.
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If Zerg didn't have Viper, there will be nothing stopping late game protoss from rolling over Zerg.
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
It’s worth considering that while there’s overlap of course, creep spread has different priorities and impacts in vP and vT.
Versus Protoss its function as an early warning system about movements out and what particular composition is pushing you so you make adjustments accordingly, ideally as late as possible to keep dat droning hardcore.
Against Terran where the matchup is more trade-oriented yeah sure the info helps too, but there creep is an aid/necessity for efficient engagements. Terran’s army comps are able to be split so well that the movement bonus or lack thereof makes a big difference in fights.
Which makes it very tricky to balance. Personally I like the mechanic and the interplay it introduces, its more about finding a sweet spot.
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On September 28 2020 23:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
If Zerg didn't have Viper, there will be nothing stopping late game protoss from rolling over Zerg.
Same goes for mech. Broodlords are not good enough if there is a lot of Thors and/or Vikings.
I would agree Viper is broken but without it Zerg stands no chance vs P/T late game armies. It is also needed to avoid stalemate. If not for Viper we would have a lot 40+ minutes turtle games in all matchups, because you can't attack into some armies without Viper. It's a sad state of the game but the unit is at the same time ugly and necessary.
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
On September 28 2020 23:00 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage. I pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly. Absolutely detest the Viper - it has so much utility on one unit. It's also super frustrating when I see vipers coming towards my army and I'm spamming feedback commands but the abduct still goes off. The 10 range vs 9 range doesn't feel like it matters since Vipers can fly / maneuver easier. I've watched replays where it really looks like feedback lands first but the abduct still goes through, it's weird. (I know thats not possible, just illustrating how incredibly thin the line is on stopping abducts, feels like the counter to it is inconsistent.) I definitely feel like a "Guaranteed kill on a very expensive unit" ability should cost more than 75 energy . To align it with PvT for example and how Patience has been playing it, I want to be able to retain my expensive units while being okay sacing my gateway units, slowly building a more and more powerful army -- You can't do that with the viper in the game, it just doesn't work.
Myself and some other annoying theorycrafting types had discussed turning abduct into a (short) channelling spell.
Say even something as short as a half second or a full second.
A feedback or a successful viper kill would leave the abducted unit as far as it had been dragged by a percentage of the channel.
I think, ignoring specific numbers aside this would introduce more premium on viper positioning by introducing counterplay while not completely neutering.
A fast Protoss could land a feedback slightly after an abduct was cast and if quick enough pull their Collosus back to the lines for example, or the Zerg could still pounce quickly on it. On the other hand if a Protoss have their Templar out of position and that sloppy play is punished by their opponent yoinking them to their death.
Little off topic mind so apologies for that!
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Maybe tumors can cost more queen energy without breaking the game. I always thought that as heavy queen production became more commonplace (because of how vesatile and tanky they are early game), that creep spread would innevitably be easier and clearing it harder.
My case for tumors costing 50 energy is when I see 4 queens walk around and drop 16 tumors on 4 attack paths, every 3 minutes or so, not to mention each tumor continues to spread free tumors. Perhaps a limiter on how many advancements each first tumor can make would be worth exploring?
I don't think quick-casting or any other ease-of-life interface adjustments are a bad thing. Anything that can help you turn thought into action faster is worth keeping in the game because it's supposed to be faster and slicker than Broodwar.
EDIT: This discussion seems to really be about PvZ strugs... I remember a time (WoL) when Protoss could really abuse Zerg with colossi and forcefields, but their ground army now seems far more impotent with ravagers, lurker range+burrow speed upgrades and vipers being a thing. What if a ravager/queen was a massive unit and corrosive bile didn't break forcefields?
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I always hated the mechanic, its not very zergy at all because it promotes turtling and defensive gameplay too much. Every Zerg unit is like50% worse off creep and it sucks.
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![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/3ypsFLM/sc2.jpg)
tumors with an armor equal to 3 or 4 to prevent small units of cleaning creep too fast (and more hp)
that s why i think it s idiot to spend multiple scan to reveal each part of the creep (in the case of a better world for casu with balanced features like mules, warp in and creep)....
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On September 28 2020 16:51 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2020 22:50 skdsk wrote:
I think the reason isnt because zerg is too good or whatever or players became to good, the reason is simple zergs builds lots of queens for defense, in old days you would get 1queen per hatch and 1-2 queens for creep spread, now you get like 5-8queens creep spreading and getting involved into fights (use banes/lings for attacks/runbies and use queens for defense), this actually is really balanced and well made strategy. Now the problem with this mass queen style is creep spread is insane and makes zerg seem OP.
How to solve this?
If you make queens for expensive you are nerfing entire race, which is bad idea.
Make creep more expensive mana wise, bad idea again, it wont solve the mass queen strategy and zergs still get more queens and every other playstyle will get nuked.
1. Possible solution
Make creep tumor actually cost mineral or gas, something like 30 minerals. Now when you trade units to kill tumors, you actually trading for minerals instead of energy, now zerg needs to decide if he wants 50 creep tumors to see everything, just like terran or protoss building depots/pylons sending marines and observers around the map and using scans.
you are implying that creep is a choice for zerg while it is a necessity. if you dont have creep in front of your 4th when terran is pushing you its gg. its not a choice of creep or units, you need both or you are dead because zerg units are trash off creep. you cant make creep cost money because then zerg wouldnt have either units or creep to defend timing attacks. it would make all sorts of all ins and timings super op in both zvp and zvt.
Ofcourse, you shouldnt be able to fight high tech armies with ling/bane off of creep, the issue right now is creep became to easy to spread. Creep spread needs to be nerfed, because with mass queen style its to easy to spread whole map full of creep. Also saying zerg cant fight high tech army with high tech army themself is disingenuous, zerg have most insane late game unit line up with insane casters like Viper and Infestor, incredibly strong lurker, which destroys all ground armies, ultras and bl as finishing options, dont forget Nydus, edrenal lings.
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On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only.
Mouse only tournament consisting top players seems to be interesting, they can only use key board for command group and mouse for all the rest
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On September 29 2020 01:18 Howard_Kao wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:06 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 18:08 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 13:07 Aesto wrote:
The main reason Zerg got more effective at creep spread is because Zerg players use a lot more Queens than they used to in WoL and HotS. The reasons for that are a) Queens got buffed, b) Zerg players realized how good they are for defense (most Zerg units are good at exactly one thing - but Queens are super versatile), and c) the LotV economy allows it. The reason Zergs didn't used to spread as much creep back in the day is because Zerg just couldn't afford those extra queens. In WoL and HotS, Zerg economy was always balancing on a razor's edge, there was no margin for error, you couldn't afford to be too greedy nor too safe. Now there is a bit more of a margin for error, and Zergs realized that they could spend this money on Queens which are an excellent insurance policy. And thanks to creep spread, they pay off even if they're not needed for defense. That being said, IF Zerg is too strong, I don't think it is because of creep spread. Creep is more of a symptom than the 'disease'. D) Spreading creep is much faster with rapidfire, since you can hold a button down for a sec and it puts down like 10 tumors. I don't think rapidfire should be allowed in competitive sc2. Following your logic using keyboards should not be allowed in competitive SC2 because they allow you to do things faster while clicking less. Competitive SC2 should be mouse only. Mouse only tournament consisting top players seems to be interesting, they can only use key board for command group and mouse for all the rest
Pros would end up having to retire at age 20 due to completely destroyed wrists.
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On September 28 2020 23:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2020 23:00 LHK wrote:On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage. I pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly. Absolutely detest the Viper - it has so much utility on one unit. It's also super frustrating when I see vipers coming towards my army and I'm spamming feedback commands but the abduct still goes off. The 10 range vs 9 range doesn't feel like it matters since Vipers can fly / maneuver easier. I've watched replays where it really looks like feedback lands first but the abduct still goes through, it's weird. (I know thats not possible, just illustrating how incredibly thin the line is on stopping abducts, feels like the counter to it is inconsistent.) I definitely feel like a "Guaranteed kill on a very expensive unit" ability should cost more than 75 energy . To align it with PvT for example and how Patience has been playing it, I want to be able to retain my expensive units while being okay sacing my gateway units, slowly building a more and more powerful army -- You can't do that with the viper in the game, it just doesn't work. Myself and some other annoying theorycrafting types had discussed turning abduct into a (short) channelling spell. Say even something as short as a half second or a full second. A feedback or a successful viper kill would leave the abducted unit as far as it had been dragged by a percentage of the channel. I think, ignoring specific numbers aside this would introduce more premium on viper positioning by introducing counterplay while not completely neutering. A fast Protoss could land a feedback slightly after an abduct was cast and if quick enough pull their Collosus back to the lines for example, or the Zerg could still pounce quickly on it. On the other hand if a Protoss have their Templar out of position and that sloppy play is punished by their opponent yoinking them to their death. Little off topic mind so apologies for that!
I quite like that idea, and in my head that's what it always felt like it should be - It feels bad to see the feedback happen but the spell still go off like that. There's precedent there of course with Neural Parasite - infestor dies, NP ends.
The viper is just way too strong in my opinion. Corruptors are meant to counter Collo / Capital ships. In order to do that you need a good bit of supply tied up in them and it takes a bit more time / has counter play as opposed to abducts getting units for free. If the corruptor can't do the job, it should be helped out until it can. The viper is just an ugly bandaid unit to fix way too many issues. Splash Anti Air spell, blinding cloud area denial, and single target kill spell.. I'm rambling a bit but if you tell someone there's a unit in a game that can do all of that they'd immediately say it can do too many things.
The problem *is* the viper, but the viper is the problem because zerg doesn't have viable alternatives, which is the real core issue. Protoss could play an entirely different strategic game if the viper wasn't in its current state. I don't have any alternatives to propose, however. I like the channeling idea / being able to cancel abducts. If I had it my way I'd remove the viper but do a lot of reworking to zerg endgame so the viper wasn't even a necessary unit. Scourge would be a good place to start, Lol.
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Northern Ireland25321 Posts
On September 29 2020 02:42 LHK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2020 23:18 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2020 23:00 LHK wrote:On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage. I pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly. Absolutely detest the Viper - it has so much utility on one unit. It's also super frustrating when I see vipers coming towards my army and I'm spamming feedback commands but the abduct still goes off. The 10 range vs 9 range doesn't feel like it matters since Vipers can fly / maneuver easier. I've watched replays where it really looks like feedback lands first but the abduct still goes through, it's weird. (I know thats not possible, just illustrating how incredibly thin the line is on stopping abducts, feels like the counter to it is inconsistent.) I definitely feel like a "Guaranteed kill on a very expensive unit" ability should cost more than 75 energy . To align it with PvT for example and how Patience has been playing it, I want to be able to retain my expensive units while being okay sacing my gateway units, slowly building a more and more powerful army -- You can't do that with the viper in the game, it just doesn't work. Myself and some other annoying theorycrafting types had discussed turning abduct into a (short) channelling spell. Say even something as short as a half second or a full second. A feedback or a successful viper kill would leave the abducted unit as far as it had been dragged by a percentage of the channel. I think, ignoring specific numbers aside this would introduce more premium on viper positioning by introducing counterplay while not completely neutering. A fast Protoss could land a feedback slightly after an abduct was cast and if quick enough pull their Collosus back to the lines for example, or the Zerg could still pounce quickly on it. On the other hand if a Protoss have their Templar out of position and that sloppy play is punished by their opponent yoinking them to their death. Little off topic mind so apologies for that! I quite like that idea, and in my head that's what it always felt like it should be - It feels bad to see the feedback happen but the spell still go off like that. There's precedent there of course with Neural Parasite - infestor dies, NP ends. The viper is just way too strong in my opinion. Corruptors are meant to counter Collo / Capital ships. In order to do that you need a good bit of supply tied up in them and it takes a bit more time / has counter play as opposed to abducts getting units for free. If the corruptor can't do the job, it should be helped out until it can. The viper is just an ugly bandaid unit to fix way too many issues. Splash Anti Air spell, blinding cloud area denial, and single target kill spell.. I'm rambling a bit but if you tell someone there's a unit in a game that can do all of that they'd immediately say it can do too many things. The problem *is* the viper, but the viper is the problem because zerg doesn't have viable alternatives, which is the real core issue. Protoss could play an entirely different strategic game if the viper wasn't in its current state. I don't have any alternatives to propose, however. I like the channeling idea / being able to cancel abducts. If I had it my way I'd remove the viper but do a lot of reworking to zerg endgame so the viper wasn't even a necessary unit. Scourge would be a good place to start, Lol.
Aye can’t disagree with much there at all! I’m kind of at a loss on how to retool Zerg and give them other options while toning down the Viper, but I definitely think the game would benefit.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 29 2020 06:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2020 02:42 LHK wrote:On September 28 2020 23:18 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2020 23:00 LHK wrote:On September 28 2020 21:18 BronzeKnee wrote:
I feel pretty strongly that the problem Protoss has with Zerg in the meta isn't creep spread, it is the power of the Viper denying so many different late game techs for Protoss.
Whether you build Carriers, Colossus, whatever, the Roach/Hydra/Lurker army that is effective in the game can nearly instantly deal with them in an even game with Vipers and Abduct.
For this reason, we see so many Protoss timings and reliance on Adepts in particular to get an early game advantage. I pretty much agree with this wholeheartedly. Absolutely detest the Viper - it has so much utility on one unit. It's also super frustrating when I see vipers coming towards my army and I'm spamming feedback commands but the abduct still goes off. The 10 range vs 9 range doesn't feel like it matters since Vipers can fly / maneuver easier. I've watched replays where it really looks like feedback lands first but the abduct still goes through, it's weird. (I know thats not possible, just illustrating how incredibly thin the line is on stopping abducts, feels like the counter to it is inconsistent.) I definitely feel like a "Guaranteed kill on a very expensive unit" ability should cost more than 75 energy . To align it with PvT for example and how Patience has been playing it, I want to be able to retain my expensive units while being okay sacing my gateway units, slowly building a more and more powerful army -- You can't do that with the viper in the game, it just doesn't work. Myself and some other annoying theorycrafting types had discussed turning abduct into a (short) channelling spell. Say even something as short as a half second or a full second. A feedback or a successful viper kill would leave the abducted unit as far as it had been dragged by a percentage of the channel. I think, ignoring specific numbers aside this would introduce more premium on viper positioning by introducing counterplay while not completely neutering. A fast Protoss could land a feedback slightly after an abduct was cast and if quick enough pull their Collosus back to the lines for example, or the Zerg could still pounce quickly on it. On the other hand if a Protoss have their Templar out of position and that sloppy play is punished by their opponent yoinking them to their death. Little off topic mind so apologies for that! I quite like that idea, and in my head that's what it always felt like it should be - It feels bad to see the feedback happen but the spell still go off like that. There's precedent there of course with Neural Parasite - infestor dies, NP ends. The viper is just way too strong in my opinion. Corruptors are meant to counter Collo / Capital ships. In order to do that you need a good bit of supply tied up in them and it takes a bit more time / has counter play as opposed to abducts getting units for free. If the corruptor can't do the job, it should be helped out until it can. The viper is just an ugly bandaid unit to fix way too many issues. Splash Anti Air spell, blinding cloud area denial, and single target kill spell.. I'm rambling a bit but if you tell someone there's a unit in a game that can do all of that they'd immediately say it can do too many things. The problem *is* the viper, but the viper is the problem because zerg doesn't have viable alternatives, which is the real core issue. Protoss could play an entirely different strategic game if the viper wasn't in its current state. I don't have any alternatives to propose, however. I like the channeling idea / being able to cancel abducts. If I had it my way I'd remove the viper but do a lot of reworking to zerg endgame so the viper wasn't even a necessary unit. Scourge would be a good place to start, Lol. Aye can’t disagree with much there at all! I’m kind of at a loss on how to retool Zerg and give them other options while toning down the Viper, but I definitely think the game would benefit.
We can start with the insta-burrow of them lurkers, or mitigate that by a tank research(what a new concept and idea!) improving the siege/unsiege time. Also changing abduct into snipe-ish (interruptable) spell can work, especially since zergs are now masquarading vipers with overseers (why has this unit any energy again?)
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On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN.
So glad we have sensible people in the balance team.
We have a pretty balanced game state, most tourneys have a good balance of all races up until the late bracket stage. Hell, even top 40 aligulac is 14 protoss, 14 Zerg, 12 Terran. How much more balanced do you want it?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 29 2020 17:01 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN. So glad we have sensible people in the balance team. We have a pretty balanced game state, most tourneys have a good balance of all races up until the late bracket stage. Hell, even top 40 aligulac is 14 protoss, 14 Zerg, 12 Terran. How much more balanced do you want it?
We have a pretty balanced game state. In the past 3 years zergs won more premiere tourneys than the other 2 races combined, 65 %. In the past 3 years zerg as a race was represented more in the finals than other 2 races combined(51 %, but still).
I think that many people don't give a .... flying circus about balance. They want to see other champions than zergs. Also 33 % of the Protoss champions in the past years disappeared with Classic  (6 premiere titles, 2 Classic)
Yes, the game is generally balanced. Despite that I want to see some changes to zerg because we have so many zerg champions it's not even funny nowadays.
Fun fact, if you remove Serral(who was godlike, new messiah and all shit like that), zerg players still won more than the other 2 races combined(by 1 tournament victory, but still valid). If we operate with a balanced game and equal skill across all players this shouldn't be possible(that all the skill is being hoarded in them zergs).
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On September 29 2020 17:01 plainsane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN. So glad we have sensible people in the balance team. We have a pretty balanced game state, most tourneys have a good balance of all races up until the late bracket stage. Hell, even top 40 aligulac is 14 protoss, 14 Zerg, 12 Terran. How much more balanced do you want it?
yes if zergs win all the tournaments, its balanced then right?
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1 Queen per hatchery would make mass queens go away and less creep spread
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This might be a bit controversial, but what if queens were changed?
What I'm thinking is that the queen as it is now would still cost the same and take as long to build, but it would lose transfuse and creep tumors. Instead, it would be able to summon creep colonies which would act the same except couldn't spread themselves. It would get a movespeed nerf as well.
You would have to pay something like 50/50 to upgrade it to a "war queen" or something similar. This would restore the queens mobility and give it an offensive buff as well (maybe undo the +1 air range that was recently nerfed in addition to a damage buff?). This queen would lose inject but gain transfuse and creep tumor.
I don't think it's a stretch to call queens the most underpriced unit in the game. They're defensively powerful, give economic advantages, and have free scouting (creep). Compare queen cost to a sentry, which has significantly less hp but similarly powerful spells in the early game, and we can see that the resource cost is the same, but with the more valuable gas instead of minerals. Also, sentries do not help your economy. By splitting it up, the functionality is retained while creating a meaningful investment and choice for zerg players.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On October 02 2020 04:15 Monochromatic wrote:
This might be a bit controversial, but what if queens were changed?
What I'm thinking is that the queen as it is now would still cost the same and take as long to build, but it would lose transfuse and creep tumors. Instead, it would be able to summon creep colonies which would act the same except couldn't spread themselves. It would get a movespeed nerf as well.
You would have to pay something like 50/50 to upgrade it to a "war queen" or something similar. This would restore the queens mobility and give it an offensive buff as well (maybe undo the +1 air range that was recently nerfed in addition to a damage buff?). This queen would lose inject but gain transfuse and creep tumor.
I don't think it's a stretch to call queens the most underpriced unit in the game. They're defensively powerful, give economic advantages, and have free scouting (creep). Compare queen cost to a sentry, which has significantly less hp but similarly powerful spells in the early game, and we can see that the resource cost is the same, but with the more valuable gas instead of minerals. Also, sentries do not help your economy. By splitting it up, the functionality is retained while creating a meaningful investment and choice for zerg players.
Similar nerfs were suggested multiple times, it appears that balance team is fine with zergs winning everything left and right as long as some other races win occassionally too and the tournament representation is "balanced"(i would consider one race winning more than other 2 races combined a part of the representation )
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EPT
