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On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles.
Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire.
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On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire.
I would rather spend my focus and energy on executing the build/strategy while playing the game than wearing down my body and equipment by mindlessly smashing the same button 20 times to make 20 units of the same type.
Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game.
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On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game.
If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back.
Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow.
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On September 26 2020 21:12 lolfail9001 wrote:
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow.
I'm still stunned that you're going on about making units when that is not what i ever talked about...
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On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others...
The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly).
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On September 26 2020 21:15 ytherik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others... The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly).
Nonetheless, the problem is real.
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On September 26 2020 21:18 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:15 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:56 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:50 ytherik wrote:On September 26 2020 20:41 Luolis wrote:On September 26 2020 20:34 bela.mervado wrote:On September 26 2020 20:26 Luolis wrote:
I'm talking about actions with the mouse that would normally be done by separate clicks... like raven auto turret spam, sieging 8+ liberators quickly, dropping 8 mules on a fresh base, yamatoing corruptors/tempests/carriers warping in 10+ chargelots, feedback on multiple dropships/vipers/ghosts, or ravager biles. Yes. I do not think any of those should be doable/allowed to do with rapidfire. Rapid fire is one of the best QoL improvements along with unlimited units/buildings in control group. The game is mechanically very demanding anyway due to being extremely fast, no need to make it even more demanding in this area. I would rather see players spend more time on playing the strategy game. If you wanted a strategy game, you probably should want WoL or Hots back. Rapid fire changes how some abilities are used. Creep spread wasnt designed to be done so you can put down 10 tumors in under a second by holding down left click. It even changes racial balance considering it helps other races more than others... The problem with Zerg being able/forced to build so many queens and tumor is not related to rapidfire though. I guess Zerg was initially not designed to use 6+ queens to survive early game in the first place. Massive creeping is just a side-effect of queen abuse that is caused by bad design. Zerg should have no incentive to build so many queens in the first place, and then creep spread with rapidfire would not even be a thing, because creep spreading would be more about quality than quantity (e.g. placing tumors more precisely, closer to the edge of creep would be more beneficial than massing them quickly). Nonetheless, the problem is real.
Yeah but it has nothing to do with rapidfire.
It's like blaming rapidfire when Protoss warps in 20 Zealots in my base instantly.
The problem is not how many clicks he did to do that but that it is legal to do so in the first place 
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
I’m with Luolis not necessarily to the extent that rapid fire is bad per se. However Zerg seem to benefit from it the most.
Rapid injects and creep spread, their core macro mechanics both benefit from rapid fire. Infested Terrans historically as well. Protoss have rapid warp ins which is always useful, and Terrans basically have rapid snipes and muling, which can be useful in certain situations but It doesn’t augment their regular macro cycle hugely.
As per the spirit of the thread I think Zerg users have both employed rapid fire alongside creep spreading improvements to levels not really intended. Which isn’t necessarily a problem, the fun of strategy games is the player base expanding the game.
I guess the problem comes when there’s an asymmetric scaling of the ceilings of these improvements across races.
As per rapid fire vs scroll wheel stuff, it’s ridiculous. Pros are mapping 3-5 alternates for commands to enable certain things to be done by rapid fire. Which is not intuitive at all to a new player and it can’t be done in the game UI, so it’s really not functionally different to software remapping your scroll wheel.
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Rapid fire on multiple commands was not intended by the developers. If it was, they would have showcased it as a feature on release. It's not referred to and can't even be activated using the in-game menu, albeit it doesn't require any external software. It is not comparable to being able to hold down keys to produce as Zerg, which was always intended and was used by everyone on release in 2010. Its gradual emergence over the years and eventual ubiquity has changed the game in ways that weren't foreseen and haven't been addressed. Its effect on balance and design is completely arbitrary and unplanned. I use it extensively but I wouldn't mind if it was removed.
As for creep spread getting faster since 2015, I would say it is around 60% due to rapid fire, 30% due to the reasons Aesto mentioned and 10% players getting better. Players were already good in 2015 (we're not talking about 2010 here) so I don't think that's the main reason.
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edit: my bad, my reading comprehension sucks. I agree with Justinian.
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On September 26 2020 21:34 Luolis wrote:
Why are you people still mentioning making units. Does anyone even read what i'm writing? Yes faster repeat rate for keyboard commands is fine. As for abilities that require multiple clicks, like spreading creep or dropping biles, you should not be allowed to do that by pressing down a single button. Read, people, read.
Uh, you seem to be the one that's not reading? I was supporting what you were saying. I said it's NOT comparable to making units. I was backing you up..........
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On September 26 2020 21:38 Justinian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:34 Luolis wrote:
Why are you people still mentioning making units. Does anyone even read what i'm writing? Yes faster repeat rate for keyboard commands is fine. As for abilities that require multiple clicks, like spreading creep or dropping biles, you should not be allowed to do that by pressing down a single button. Read, people, read. Uh, you seem to be the one that's not reading? I was supporting what you were saying. I said it's NOT comparable to making units. I was backing you up..........
Yeah i edited the post, apparently i cant read.
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I think it's partially a meta shift in that we realised how important it is to prioritise it (for example players now have dedicated creep re-spreading queens in lategame, because it's worth the supply), and as has been mentioned before the LotV economy of quick 3 base allows a lot of queen production early in the game.
I think the question is really: "is it imba?". IMO it probably is, in that Blizz made it easier to clear last patch, but that still hasn't made a huge impact. Probably next patch we will see something like energy cost increase or longer cooldown.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 26 2020 21:13 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 21:12 lolfail9001 wrote:
Ironically, the most improvements playing zerg are felt in simply making units if you adjust repeat delay/rate rather than rapidfiring creep, but that might have to do with default values being far too slow. I'm still stunned that you're going on about making units when that is not what i ever talked about...
I just found that hilarious, little else, have a beer and chill out.
On September 26 2020 21:31 Justinian wrote:
Rapid fire on multiple commands was not intended by the developers. If it was, they would have showcased it as a feature on release. It's not referred to and can't even be activated using the in-game menu, albeit it doesn't require any external software. It is not comparable to being able to hold down keys to produce as Zerg, which was always intended and was used by everyone on release in 2010. Its gradual emergence over the years and eventual ubiquity has changed the game in ways that weren't foreseen and haven't been addressed. Its effect on balance and design is completely arbitrary and unplanned. I use it extensively but I wouldn't mind if it was removed.
As for creep spread getting faster since 2015, I would say it is around 60% due to rapid fire, 30% due to the reasons Aesto mentioned and 10% players getting better. Players were already good in 2015 (we're not talking about 2010 here) so I don't think that's the main reason.
Rapid fire on multiple (emphasis) commands is indeed something that should not be legal.
But it is also completely irrelevant to question of creep spread or spamming abilities (because no unit has 2 abilities you want to spam so much like you would spam snipe in 2011 or infested terrans whenever they exist). If anything, the race that benefits from it the most are toss.
Anyways, as was said before, everyone who cared knew about rapidfire by 2012 already, so it can't explain drastic growth in creep spread all on it's own. Amount of queens made actually does explain it (and the fact that LotV made massing queens early on the meta in both non-mirrors), and it is seriously hard to address it proper without directly nerfing creep tumors on top of nerfs already done.
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On September 26 2020 12:34 ScrappyRabbit wrote:"have zergs become better at spreading creep than they were 'supposed' to be when the race was designed, and is that an issue?"
All races have something they do that the designers didn't intend for at least intially in Wol, that was 10 years ago. There's been 2 expansions and many patches since. The designers never envisioned marine splitting against banelings (somehow!) or stutter step despite that been obvious and effective micro that has parallels in broodwar. Nor did they envision many strats and micro. It doesn't matter if an ability is better than the designers of SC2 had imagined it to be. It'll be a sad game if SC2 was limited to the very limited imaginations of their designers as opposed to the many entertaining games of pros since.
Zergs primarily became better at spreading creep due to increased queen usage. Before, you needed a queen dedicated to spreading creep; after their range was increased to patch over the vulnerability of Zerg in the early game, it became a given that there would be spare queens. But certainly the designers would have intended for creep spread to be expected otherwise it wouldn't had been an ability in the first place. 10 years and 2 expansions later it is an assumed design, with spread creep undegoing a few changes, including the big change being able to spread creep tumours on ramps, giving vision one level up, thus purposefully making creep easier to spread, rendering your point moot anyways as the design team purposefully made creep easier to spread. Today, Zerg spread creep as fast as the balance team wants Zerg to spread creep.
Is that an issue? No it isn't. This is a loaded question. Rather than ask if it is an issue, therfore implying it is an issue, the onus is on you to explain why creep spread is an issue. But you cannot or is unwilling to do so.
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8751 Posts
I think improvements to rapid fire technique + excess queen energy has made creep a lot easier than it used to be, as has been mentioned already. But praise Blizzard for rolling with it and trying to give stronger creep clearing tools to counter it (at least for PvZ, can't speak for tvz). If protoss wants to play a style with creep clearing tools, it's possible. Trap showed it vs reynor. At the same time, all defense and macro without caring about creep also seems viable, as stats has shown. And apparently this is even stronger as MMR goes down.
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On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN.
You seem to be operating under the assumption that creep is some sort of adventageous bonus to zerg. This is incorrect.
Creep is required to be on even footing. A zerg will never win against an equally skilled opponent without creep.
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On September 27 2020 00:07 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2020 20:38 BonitiilloO wrote:
Crep tumors should cost 25 or 50 minerals imo to lay then down. this will give a zerg a choice creep, drone or units? right now zerg doesn't worry anymore about larva management due to QUEEN. You seem to be operating under the assumption that creep is some sort of adventageous bonus to zerg. This is incorrect. Creep is required to be on even footing. A zerg will never win against an equally skilled opponent without creep.
Completely agree with this, creep is absolutely necessary to engage a Terran who knows how to split.
And Zerg wouldn't need to invest so heavily into Queens if they had more reliable early/mid game AA. At first the rise of fast BCs (trash meta imo) along with Oracle openers being so common place made heavy Queen counts into a sheer necessity, couple that with the threat of Hellbat pushes and as mentioned above, the need to engage Terran on creep, or at least slow them down while they clear the creep.
If a Terran is pressuring your 4th hatchery and you have no creep providing vision and speed, lol, you're in big trouble.
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Mexico2170 Posts
I don't completely agree it's necessary. You could flank or use infestors for example to slow units down, which was exactly what zergs did when their creep spread wasn't as good.
....what is this rapid fire "with multiple commands" you guys speak of....have I been playing wrong all this time?
I don't think creep spread is that big of a problem honestly.
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EPT
