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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in.
Like how exactly do you play safe against a possible 12 pool and not fall extremly behind against a standard opening in PvZ if you scout zerg last? Let's move to practical examples. Let's just assume zerg isn't greedy as Rogue would be(while losing horribly to a cheese  )
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I would live some 3 and 4 spawn maps. By the way 6 and 12 worker starts are not the only options, what if it was 9 or 10 ? Would that give enough time to scout on such maps?
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On May 26 2020 02:27 BonitiilloO wrote:
NOT TRUE, what people will do in this 4 spawn maps is just send a scout right after the game starts anyways.
That's not soon enough. By the time say a probe gets to base 4 (even if you send a scout out immediately) the player would have already committed to the early build. Please get into an old 4 p map and see how long you actually take to go around.
Even currently, you can see in PvZ all protosses send their pylon probe out. This typically gets there as you are planting your nexus. If you sent out your probe straight away, you can at best scout 2 bases. If you watch some older games, when a protoss wanted to guarantee a scout, on a 4P map they actually sent out 2 probes.
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On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in.
No it literally only favours zerg cheese. Both terran and toss needs to know where you are first. a 2 player map actually makes cheeses from T and P better because you know exacly where they are and therefore you know where you can hide things.
In that scenario, Z has no reason to expect a cheese or at least a cheese they cant hold while playing normally whereas the other 2 races have to play safe. In effect T&P start the game behind.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 26 2020 10:33 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in. No it literally only favours zerg cheese. Both terran and toss needs to know where you are first. a 2 player map actually makes cheeses from T and P better because you know exacly where they are and therefore you know where you can hide things. In that scenario, Z has no reason to expect a cheese or at least a cheese they cant hold while playing normally whereas the other 2 races have to play safe. In effect T&P start the game behind.
IIRC there were cheeses, especially from Protoss, based on the fact, that either it was close, or at least closer or well hidden e.g. proxy stargate The player just guessed and placed them. So it's not like there were no cheeses mixed in. This still doesn't fix the early game though.
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On May 26 2020 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:IIRC there were cheeses, especially from Protoss, based on the fact, that either it was close, or at least closer or well hidden e.g. proxy stargate The player just guessed and placed them. So it's not like there were no cheeses mixed in. This still doesn't fix the early game though.
Yes it did happen, there's a few difference i think in these scenarios between HotS/WoL and LoTV. firstly usually 2 probes are sent to ensure you scout their location. Secondly the lower worker count means you don't need to place a pylon until you find out where they were and proxied. Currently even if you sent a probe as soon as the game starts, you will be supply capped before you find them. That's why builds like the maxpax builds a pylon at home first, you are supply capped already and can't wait to get to the other side.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On May 26 2020 21:52 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2020 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:IIRC there were cheeses, especially from Protoss, based on the fact, that either it was close, or at least closer or well hidden e.g. proxy stargate The player just guessed and placed them. So it's not like there were no cheeses mixed in. This still doesn't fix the early game though. Yes it did happen, there's a few difference i think in these scenarios between HotS/WoL and LoTV. firstly usually 2 probes are sent to ensure you scout their location. Secondly the lower worker count means you don't need to place a pylon until you find out where they were and proxied. Currently even if you sent a probe as soon as the game starts, you will be supply capped before you find them. That's why builds like the maxpax builds a pylon at home first, you are supply capped already and can't wait to get to the other side.
Yeah, i was mostly talking about proxy starport/stargate/factory and such, not 2gate/2raxe. While these did happen it was rare.
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Honestly this game is beyond frustrating to play on maps like this. I'm in the unfortunate spot of MMR hell which is between 3800-4000. Every single game is some kind of blind all in build or garbage proxy cheese.
Its impossible to try to improve because people would sell their souls for ladder points. These maps just encourage this garbage type of play because the player knows EXACTLY where they need to hide buildings and where to attack. These maps just encourage cookie cutter builds and thats not what RTS is supposed to be.
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EPT
