Why only 2 Spawn?

On May 24 2020 20:22 sudete wrote:
When you say there "should definitely be viable 4 spawn / 3 spawn maps for all races", do you mean to say that these maps should definitely exist (or can be created) or do you mean to say that these maps should be included in the map pool? Off the top of my head, maps like Frost, Whirlwind, Honorgrounds, Iron Fortress are some of the most 'recent' ones before they fell out of fashion. Whirlwind was probably the most balanced one. Those were from years ago, I should add.

My best guess is that mapmakers, pro players and arguably many non-professional players (though I don't have the statistics on hand) have a preference for 2 player maps, and that is reflected in the maps which are shortlisted and entered into TLMC (and thereafter added to the pool). Imo a mapmaker who knows that people generally veto any map for >2 players wouldn't make a 3-4 player map for the competition anyway. Pro players probably don't enjoy the kind of randomness associated with it (as Elentos mentioned), although I'm guessing that having forced cross spawns or something like that would alleviate the issue slightly.

Ngl I feel a tiny pang of yearning when I recall memories of some old 4 player maps: Xel'naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard and Nimbus especially. Special mention for Entombed 2 rax Valley as well

On May 24 2020 20:00 dbRic1203 wrote:
In GSL the 4 Player map also get s Vetoed way more often. I only recal one game on it this season between Stats and TY. There were probably more, but not many

On May 24 2020 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote:

So in 20 Bo3 and 4 Bo5 series the Map was played twice.

On May 24 2020 20:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


To be fair the non-ladder maps would end up more vetoed regardless just out of pros being more familiar with the ladder maps. Rak'Shir and Sky Shield were also vetoed quite a bit for example (though still less than Cobalt or Obsidian or Darkness Sanctuary).

As for why there aren't 4p maps on ladder, well, maps usually go through the TLMC and the pro judges hate anything non-standard and most of all hate 4p maps. Here's actual judge responses to a 4p map: .

Mind you there are some ways to make 4p maps that avoid most of the scouting RNG issues. Obviously 'fake' 4p maps, such as cross-only 2 in 1 maps (e.g. Waystation, Foxtrot Labs LE) don't have that issue though some pros dislike the aspect of there possibly being a good anv bad set of spawns. A map with spawns and layout similar to Shakuras Plateau could be made so that the scouting RNG is very minimal--maybe only ~15 seconds of extra scout time if you scout the wrong way as opposed to the ~80 seconds of regular 4p maps.

However while those possible solutions fix some of the concrete issues with 4p maps, it doesn't fix 4p maps' PR issues. I assume people would still look at those maps and reject them out of hand for being a 4p map without looking at the details.

On May 25 2020 00:00 brickrd wrote:
if it's a "serious flaw in game design" then post your proposal for how to make all matchups balanced with long base to base travel distance

not sure why you think map size wouldn't interact with the strength of units and races. it's like saying it's a "serious flaw" that protoss can't function on a map where you can't wall the natural. maps have to be a certain way. if not, what's your proposal then? what idea do you have that fixes this flaw?

On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote:
My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on.

On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote:
My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on.

On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote:
1. People whine about it because it favors cheese/strategy more than 2 player maps do
2. Map makers aren't good enough to make 4 player maps, or don't want to, and have no incentive to.
3. Protoss is seriously boned if they scout a 12 pool late.

My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on.

On May 25 2020 13:35 Dracover wrote:
For those saying have 4 player maps but show spawn locations...whats the point of a 4 player map in that scenario? Will play exactly the same as a 2 player map.

As others have already said, main problem atm is if you are being cheesed and they happen to be in the last position, you'll never have a chance to scout it. It's not about having perfect information but at least making it possible to see or suspect somethings up.

In HoTS and WoL, lower worker numbers meant it took longer to build up to the rax, gateway timing. This meant even if you scouted them last you can still see the missing pylong or rax. LoTV it's impossible if you scout them last.

But isn't an incorrect scouting path part of the game? I mean in BW you can also get unlucky with scouting and yet there seem to be some maps with mroe than 2 spawn poitns?

On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in.

On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in.

On May 26 2020 02:27 BonitiilloO wrote:

NOT TRUE, what people will do in this 4 spawn maps is just send a scout right after the game starts anyways.

On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote:
If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in.

On May 26 2020 10:33 Dracover wrote:


No it literally only favours zerg cheese. Both terran and toss needs to know where you are first. a 2 player map actually makes cheeses from T and P better because you know exacly where they are and therefore you know where you can hide things.

In that scenario, Z has no reason to expect a cheese or at least a cheese they cant hold while playing normally whereas the other 2 races have to play safe. In effect T&P start the game behind.

On May 26 2020 16:25 deacon.frost wrote:
IIRC there were cheeses, especially from Protoss, based on the fact, that either it was close, or at least closer or well hidden e.g. proxy stargate The player just guessed and placed them. So it's not like there were no cheeses mixed in. This still doesn't fix the early game though.

On May 26 2020 21:52 Dracover wrote:


Yes it did happen, there's a few difference i think in these scenarios between HotS/WoL and LoTV. firstly usually 2 probes are sent to ensure you scout their location. Secondly the lower worker count means you don't need to place a pylon until you find out where they were and proxied. Currently even if you sent a probe as soon as the game starts, you will be supply capped before you find them. That's why builds like the maxpax builds a pylon at home first, you are supply capped already and can't wait to get to the other side.