EPTIs this the only way that balanced maps are possible? If so this is a serious flaw in game design. There should defintely be viable 4spawn / 3 spawn maps for all races.
Why only 2 Spawn?
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RandomPlayer416
84 Posts
Is this the only way that balanced maps are possible? If so this is a serious flaw in game design. There should defintely be viable 4spawn / 3 spawn maps for all races. | ||
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Elentos
55566 Posts
Additionally, cross spawns will always favor Zerg in non-mirror because of the sheer distance from one corner to the other and all the open ground in between. Close spawns will always be more favorable for the other races because they can get their pushes going quicker and usually have more favorable terrain along the way. It's not like it necessarily causes egregious balance issues that can't be overcome, it's just outside of a lot of players' comfort zone so we've slowly moved away from ever having them on ladder. GSL adds them to the tournament map pool every year though. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
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Elentos
55566 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:00 dbRic1203 wrote: In GSL the 4 Player map also get s Vetoed way more often. I only recal one game on it this season between Stats and TY. There were probably more, but not many Yesterday's GSL broadcast had the 2nd game on it of the season. | ||
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dbRic1203
Germany2655 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:10 Elentos wrote: Yesterday's GSL broadcast had the 2nd game on it of the season. So in 20 Bo3 and 4 Bo5 series the Map was played twice. | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
My best guess is that mapmakers, pro players and arguably many non-professional players (though I don't have the statistics on hand) have a preference for 2 player maps, and that is reflected in the maps which are shortlisted and entered into TLMC (and thereafter added to the pool). Imo a mapmaker who knows that people generally veto any map for >2 players wouldn't make a 3-4 player map for the competition anyway. Pro players probably don't enjoy the kind of randomness associated with it (as Elentos mentioned), although I'm guessing that having forced cross spawns or something like that would alleviate the issue slightly. Ngl I feel a tiny pang of yearning when I recall memories of some old 4 player maps: Xel'naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard and Nimbus especially. Special mention for Entombed 2 rax Valley as well | ||
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LHK
204 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:22 sudete wrote: When you say there "should definitely be viable 4 spawn / 3 spawn maps for all races", do you mean to say that these maps should definitely exist (or can be created) or do you mean to say that these maps should be included in the map pool? Off the top of my head, maps like Frost, Whirlwind, Honorgrounds, Iron Fortress are some of the most 'recent' ones before they fell out of fashion. Whirlwind was probably the most balanced one. Those were from years ago, I should add. My best guess is that mapmakers, pro players and arguably many non-professional players (though I don't have the statistics on hand) have a preference for 2 player maps, and that is reflected in the maps which are shortlisted and entered into TLMC (and thereafter added to the pool). Imo a mapmaker who knows that people generally veto any map for >2 players wouldn't make a 3-4 player map for the competition anyway. Pro players probably don't enjoy the kind of randomness associated with it (as Elentos mentioned), although I'm guessing that having forced cross spawns or something like that would alleviate the issue slightly. Ngl I feel a tiny pang of yearning when I recall memories of some old 4 player maps: Xel'naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard and Nimbus especially. Special mention for Entombed 2 rax Valley as well I'd really love forced spawns similar to Deadwing and having four player maps again. Force cross, or force top/down, or disable horizontal in the case of deadwing, etc. But one thing I love about watching Brood War is seeing other mains taken and how those are secured, and hidden bases. I'd love to see innovative play in the "securing and defending expansions" area, the game has changed a lot since Frost was in the pool for example! | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:00 dbRic1203 wrote: In GSL the 4 Player map also get s Vetoed way more often. I only recal one game on it this season between Stats and TY. There were probably more, but not many To be fair the non-ladder maps would end up more vetoed regardless just out of pros being more familiar with the ladder maps. Rak'Shir and Sky Shield were also vetoed quite a bit for example (though still less than Cobalt or Obsidian or Darkness Sanctuary). As for why there aren't 4p maps on ladder, well, maps usually go through the TLMC and the pro judges hate anything non-standard and most of all hate 4p maps. Here's actual judge responses to a 4p map: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/46NP9eV.png) .Mind you there are some ways to make 4p maps that avoid most of the scouting RNG issues. Obviously 'fake' 4p maps, such as cross-only 2 in 1 maps (e.g. Waystation, Foxtrot Labs LE) don't have that issue though some pros dislike the aspect of there possibly being a good anv bad set of spawns. A map with spawns and layout similar to Shakuras Plateau could be made so that the scouting RNG is very minimal--maybe only ~15 seconds of extra scout time if you scout the wrong way as opposed to the ~80 seconds of regular 4p maps. However while those possible solutions fix some of the concrete issues with 4p maps, it doesn't fix 4p maps' PR issues. I assume people would still look at those maps and reject them out of hand for being a 4p map without looking at the details. | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
So you had time to scout. What s wrong with trolls ? | ||
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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Vision_
875 Posts
with 9+ workers, it was about 36 seconds sooner 36 seconds is actually the time to cross a map | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I don't get what arguments can be made against rotational symmetry on these kinds of maps in LotV that couldn't have been made for the 6 or so years rotationally symmetric 3/4 player maps were alive and well in WoL/HotS. | ||
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Mettis
84 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:00 dbRic1203 wrote: In GSL the 4 Player map also get s Vetoed way more often. I only recal one game on it this season between Stats and TY. There were probably more, but not many Probably because they cant practice on them on ladder... | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
not sure why you think map size wouldn't interact with the strength of units and races. it's like saying it's a "serious flaw" that protoss can't function on a map where you can't wall the natural. maps have to be a certain way. if not, what's your proposal then? what idea do you have that fixes this flaw? | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote: So in 20 Bo3 and 4 Bo5 series the Map was played twice. Yeah, but new maps always get vetoed regardless of whether they're good or not. Daybreak was one of the hallmark maps of its time, and it barely got vetoed less than Crossfire in its first GSL. If we depended on pros we'd have spent 22 years of playing nothing but Lost Temple. | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
Imagine playing on a map with no Ramps and completely open bases it just doesn´t work. It would be nice if the early to mid game unit balance was a bit more robust and allow for greater map variety. | ||
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algue
France1436 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: To be fair the non-ladder maps would end up more vetoed regardless just out of pros being more familiar with the ladder maps. Rak'Shir and Sky Shield were also vetoed quite a bit for example (though still less than Cobalt or Obsidian or Darkness Sanctuary). As for why there aren't 4p maps on ladder, well, maps usually go through the TLMC and the pro judges hate anything non-standard and most of all hate 4p maps. Here's actual judge responses to a 4p map: .Mind you there are some ways to make 4p maps that avoid most of the scouting RNG issues. Obviously 'fake' 4p maps, such as cross-only 2 in 1 maps (e.g. Waystation, Foxtrot Labs LE) don't have that issue though some pros dislike the aspect of there possibly being a good anv bad set of spawns. A map with spawns and layout similar to Shakuras Plateau could be made so that the scouting RNG is very minimal--maybe only ~15 seconds of extra scout time if you scout the wrong way as opposed to the ~80 seconds of regular 4p maps. However while those possible solutions fix some of the concrete issues with 4p maps, it doesn't fix 4p maps' PR issues. I assume people would still look at those maps and reject them out of hand for being a 4p map without looking at the details. A very simple fix to the RNG issue would be to get blizzard to modify those little crosshair that appear on the minimap at the start of the game so that they only appear where the players spawned instead of appearing at every spawn position. Doesn't change anything for 2p maps, makes a world of difference for maps with more than 2 spawns. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 25 2020 00:00 brickrd wrote: if it's a "serious flaw in game design" then post your proposal for how to make all matchups balanced with long base to base travel distance not sure why you think map size wouldn't interact with the strength of units and races. it's like saying it's a "serious flaw" that protoss can't function on a map where you can't wall the natural. maps have to be a certain way. if not, what's your proposal then? what idea do you have that fixes this flaw? The fix would be surprisingly simple. The reason there's not as much time to scout properly at the beginning of the game is because of the 12 worker start. Though algue's suggestion would work too. | ||
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Vision_
875 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10700 Posts
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