Why only 2 Spawn?

On May 24 2020 20:22 sudete wrote:
When you say there "should definitely be viable 4 spawn / 3 spawn maps for all races", do you mean to say that these maps should definitely exist (or can be created) or do you mean to say that these maps should be included in the map pool? Off the top of my head, maps like Frost, Whirlwind, Honorgrounds, Iron Fortress are some of the most 'recent' ones before they fell out of fashion. Whirlwind was probably the most balanced one. Those were from years ago, I should add.

My best guess is that mapmakers, pro players and arguably many non-professional players (though I don't have the statistics on hand) have a preference for 2 player maps, and that is reflected in the maps which are shortlisted and entered into TLMC (and thereafter added to the pool). Imo a mapmaker who knows that people generally veto any map for >2 players wouldn't make a 3-4 player map for the competition anyway. Pro players probably don't enjoy the kind of randomness associated with it (as Elentos mentioned), although I'm guessing that having forced cross spawns or something like that would alleviate the issue slightly.

Ngl I feel a tiny pang of yearning when I recall memories of some old 4 player maps: Xel'naga Fortress, Metalopolis, Antiga Shipyard and Nimbus especially. Special mention for Entombed 2 rax Valley as well

On May 24 2020 20:00 dbRic1203 wrote:
In GSL the 4 Player map also get s Vetoed way more often. I only recal one game on it this season between Stats and TY. There were probably more, but not many

On May 24 2020 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote:

So in 20 Bo3 and 4 Bo5 series the Map was played twice.

On May 24 2020 20:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote:


To be fair the non-ladder maps would end up more vetoed regardless just out of pros being more familiar with the ladder maps. Rak'Shir and Sky Shield were also vetoed quite a bit for example (though still less than Cobalt or Obsidian or Darkness Sanctuary).

As for why there aren't 4p maps on ladder, well, maps usually go through the TLMC and the pro judges hate anything non-standard and most of all hate 4p maps. Here's actual judge responses to a 4p map: .

Mind you there are some ways to make 4p maps that avoid most of the scouting RNG issues. Obviously 'fake' 4p maps, such as cross-only 2 in 1 maps (e.g. Waystation, Foxtrot Labs LE) don't have that issue though some pros dislike the aspect of there possibly being a good anv bad set of spawns. A map with spawns and layout similar to Shakuras Plateau could be made so that the scouting RNG is very minimal--maybe only ~15 seconds of extra scout time if you scout the wrong way as opposed to the ~80 seconds of regular 4p maps.

However while those possible solutions fix some of the concrete issues with 4p maps, it doesn't fix 4p maps' PR issues. I assume people would still look at those maps and reject them out of hand for being a 4p map without looking at the details.

On May 25 2020 00:00 brickrd wrote:
if it's a "serious flaw in game design" then post your proposal for how to make all matchups balanced with long base to base travel distance

not sure why you think map size wouldn't interact with the strength of units and races. it's like saying it's a "serious flaw" that protoss can't function on a map where you can't wall the natural. maps have to be a certain way. if not, what's your proposal then? what idea do you have that fixes this flaw?