EPTOn May 25 2020 02:57 GGzerG wrote:
I agree, I miss the 4 player spawns.
I agree, I miss the 4 player spawns.
I also agree. 4 player spawns is awesome.
Why only 2 Spawn? - Page 2
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ThunderJunk
United States738 Posts
I also agree. 4 player spawns is awesome. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On May 24 2020 20:51 ZigguratOfUr wrote: To be fair the non-ladder maps would end up more vetoed regardless just out of pros being more familiar with the ladder maps. Rak'Shir and Sky Shield were also vetoed quite a bit for example (though still less than Cobalt or Obsidian or Darkness Sanctuary). As for why there aren't 4p maps on ladder, well, maps usually go through the TLMC and the pro judges hate anything non-standard and most of all hate 4p maps. Here's actual judge responses to a 4p map: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/46NP9eV.png) .Mind you there are some ways to make 4p maps that avoid most of the scouting RNG issues. Obviously 'fake' 4p maps, such as cross-only 2 in 1 maps (e.g. Waystation, Foxtrot Labs LE) don't have that issue though some pros dislike the aspect of there possibly being a good anv bad set of spawns. A map with spawns and layout similar to Shakuras Plateau could be made so that the scouting RNG is very minimal--maybe only ~15 seconds of extra scout time if you scout the wrong way as opposed to the ~80 seconds of regular 4p maps. However while those possible solutions fix some of the concrete issues with 4p maps, it doesn't fix 4p maps' PR issues. I assume people would still look at those maps and reject them out of hand for being a 4p map without looking at the details. There's so much wrong with that image. "Does not work in the current meta". Really? You don't say? I wonder what would happen to the meta if a map didn't conform to it. Would it change? Could that happen? Is it possible? Surely not! | ||
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IMOrion
24 Posts
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JakePlissken
55 Posts
The over-abundance of two player maps, and the general lack of map variety is what led me to quit SC2 permanently. Thankfully Brood War still uses 2, 3, 4, even occasional 5 player maps, and has for years, with no adverse balance concerns. | ||
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franzji
United States583 Posts
2. Map makers aren't good enough to make 4 player maps, or don't want to, and have no incentive to. 3. Protoss is seriously boned if they scout a 12 pool late. My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on. | ||
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
As others have already said, main problem atm is if you are being cheesed and they happen to be in the last position, you'll never have a chance to scout it. It's not about having perfect information but at least making it possible to see or suspect somethings up. In HoTS and WoL, lower worker numbers meant it took longer to build up to the rax, gateway timing. This meant even if you scouted them last you can still see the missing pylong or rax. LoTV it's impossible if you scout them last. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
I don't quite the randomness of 4 players map though - I think that 2 spawns make superior maps, but I can see the point. | ||
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life617
United States25 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote: My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on. I agree. They already highlight the opponent's spawn location for 2 player maps, so it isn't a stretch to think they could do the same for 4 player as well. The only other option I can think of is to have a smaller ramp at the natural expansion so that protoss could get a 2 building wall up in time for a 12 pool even if they don't scout it, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to the problem. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4103 Posts
On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote: My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on. yep This allows for both variety and creativity minus the downside of being handicapped by incorrect scouting path. The perfect solution. | ||
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arkedos
Germany1426 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 25 2020 13:06 franzji wrote: 1. People whine about it because it favors cheese/strategy more than 2 player maps do 2. Map makers aren't good enough to make 4 player maps, or don't want to, and have no incentive to. 3. Protoss is seriously boned if they scout a 12 pool late. My opinion is they should reintroduce 4 player maps but at the start of the game, it should show you their spawn position. I wish we had 4 player maps to play on. Mapmakers kind of got funneled out of making any 4p maps. It is marginally harder to make one, but mostly people just complain about having to scout, mostly because now it's a 12 worker start. When it was 6 you had time to find your opponent before you both committed to your builds. It's a much easier life as a mapmaker when people aren't complaining about everything you make. I agree though, I want them back too. | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
BRING BACK 3/4 PLAYER MAPS | ||
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BonitiilloO
Dominican Republic627 Posts
On May 25 2020 13:35 Dracover wrote: For those saying have 4 player maps but show spawn locations...whats the point of a 4 player map in that scenario? Will play exactly the same as a 2 player map. As others have already said, main problem atm is if you are being cheesed and they happen to be in the last position, you'll never have a chance to scout it. It's not about having perfect information but at least making it possible to see or suspect somethings up. In HoTS and WoL, lower worker numbers meant it took longer to build up to the rax, gateway timing. This meant even if you scouted them last you can still see the missing pylong or rax. LoTV it's impossible if you scout them last. NOT TRUE, what people will do in this 4 spawn maps is just send a scout right after the game starts anyways. | ||
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hpty603
United States262 Posts
But isn't an incorrect scouting path part of the game? I mean in BW you can also get unlucky with scouting and yet there seem to be some maps with mroe than 2 spawn poitns? Ya, but the difference is that in BW if you scout last, you're a bit behind because you have to play safe to cover aggressive openings. If you scout last in LotV, there are ravagers in your base. The game is just too much faster in the beginning to allow for 4 player maps. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States738 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 26 2020 02:35 ThunderJunk wrote: If there's an increased risk of getting cheesed, then players adapt by playing safer / less greedy, which makes for strategic diversity across maps. So it's better to have some 4-player maps mixed in. This creates a massively unfavourable position for protoss in PvZ. Protoss cannot play safe against an unscouted 12 pool and not be behind against pretty much any other opening since it requires delaying economy to get a full wall up in time. It's a lose/lose situation for protoss. Either play safe and automatically be behind against any standard opener but safe against one specific build, or play standard and have a proportion of your games be literally unstoppable losses that you cannot prevent due to being able unable to scout the 12 pool in time. It's one thing to have to play a certain way based on scouted information. It's an entirely different thing to have to play from a substantial disadvantage from the start because of something entirely out of your control. | ||
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