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On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote:
I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal.
I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals.
Here's a study on the effect of sleep deprivation over one night: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489575/
There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference.
Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before.
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The way Serral picked apart soO in game 3 and the comeback against Solar in game 2 stood out to me.
That game must have been super demoralising for Solar, and yet it still can't have been as demoralising as the failed two rax game he lost against Maru in the super tournament.
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Germany3367 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:47 tigon_ridge wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote:
I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal. I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals. Here's a study on the effect of sleep deprivation over one night: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489575/There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference. Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before.
Thank you for providing some substance to the discussion. The abstract you posted kind of goes against your argument though, no? It says physical reaction time was severely affected by pulling an all-nighter among their test persons, and surely that's a big deal in TvZ.
We don't know how Inno reacted to this whole deal - maybe he pulls off something like this every week and is used to it, who knows? I don't think anyone can or should argue that lack of sleep is the reason Inno lost. It's surely not, and Serral is clearly favoured when facing him. So yeah, perhaps it's exaggerated (and I will agree that some people here unnecessarily use it as an excuse), but again, I think it is worth mentioning in a recap about the match. It's just an unusual circumstance, no more, no less. Maybe a fresh Inno would've just lost 3-4, not a big difference in the end. 
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On April 12 2020 21:02 gophersnake wrote:
I dont buy the being up all night excuse. You are a pro-gamer, you inherently are up all night.
No lol
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On April 12 2020 22:03 TheOneAboveU wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 21:47 tigon_ridge wrote:On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote:
I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal. I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals. Here's a study on the effect of sleep deprivation over one night: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5489575/There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference. Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before. Thank you for providing some substance to the discussion. The abstract you posted kind of goes against your argument though, no? It says physical reaction time was severely affected by pulling an all-nighter among their test persons, and surely that's a big deal in TvZ. We don't know how Inno reacted to this whole deal - maybe he pulls off something like this every week and is used to it, who knows? I don't think anyone can or should argue that lack of sleep is the reason Inno lost. It's surely not, and Serral is clearly favoured when facing him. So yeah, perhaps it's exaggerated (and I will agree that some people here unnecessarily use it as an excuse), but again, I think it is worth mentioning in a recap about the match. It's just an unusual circumstance, no more, no less. Maybe a fresh Inno would've just lost 3-4, not a big difference in the end.
The conclusion of the study contradicted the data in the results, though. The physical reactions times had a difference .01 s (.19 s -.18 s). I don't know why it listed the difference as .15 s. That's definitely incorrect. Regardless, I think physical reaction speed matters little compared to processing speed when it comes to SC. When you "react" in Starcraft, it isn't just muscle reaction, you have to first assess the complex situation before making a decision. The ruler drop test employed by the study doesn't factor in such complex mental processes at all.
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United States33713 Posts
Lots of matches have outside circumstances--bad ping, jet lag, illness, having the booth collapse on top of your head, etc. I don't know that time zones are more interesting than the others 
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On April 12 2020 21:03 M2 wrote:What happened with the protoss 2 base shuttle pushes which were so dominating an year ago (maybe less, maybe more)? I haven;t follow the scene lately and I saw there was a big balance patch, but nothing there looked like a direct nerf to this style
Warp prism were nerfed and charge changed.
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote:
Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
While this is becoming true with the retirements, Protoss actually had the most progamers at the top in Korea in the last two years; also, if the lack of top players was the issue we would be seeing PvZ's win ratio close to 50% at lesser levels, but that's doesn't happen(take a look at Aligulac).
On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote:It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC.
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gotta wonder how much latency contributed to the results, but regardless, Serral would have done well. Awesome event!
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Germany3367 Posts
I mean, discussions like this are exactly why offline events are the gold standard. :D
It's kind of great this is highlighted once in a while. They just eliminate a lot of those those little factors.
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Was a cool tournament, not sure how much we can read into online results played cross server and at strange hours, other than that Elazer is in pretty good form right now and Solar, Inno, and Serral are good at the game.
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On April 12 2020 22:56 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote:It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time. Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC.
I propose 3.682561 HSC for Serral, and 4.58126 GSL for Maru. All based on careful calculation of course
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On April 13 2020 00:45 yubo56 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 22:56 Xain0n wrote:On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote:It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time. Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC. I propose 3.682561 HSC for Serral, and 4.58126 GSL for Maru. All based on careful calculation of course
Okay, but only if we also acknowledge that his 2 GSL vs the world wins give Serral 0.93418 GSLs too
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I feel like both of them makes some mistakes that they always make in thr last games in the finals, but this mistakes don't occurs quite often usually, so staying up all night probably matters? Reaction time getting longer surely matters a lot for sc2, and for terran. But when both players are equally tired, it surely shows that serral is just a bit stronger than anyone now.
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Canada8991 Posts
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote:
Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow.
We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
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On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote:
Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
There's a reason they lack players at the very top.
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Great tournament, given the circumstances. Lots of action packed gamea, as well. Kudos to the players, but also to the casters, observers and production!
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dammmnn Serral just straight-up murder Inno on the spot
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On April 13 2020 02:22 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote:
Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should. There's a reason they lack players at the very top.
Yeah, there are getting old. Most top Protoss have >26 years old.
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On April 13 2020 02:15 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote:
Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should. I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran. But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
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EPT
