The world may have changed overnight due to the current pandemic, but some things just stay the same: after two days of tough competition, the Finnish Phenom Serral faced the Korean Machine INnoVation in the Grand Finals of yet another TakeTV event. This time it was Stay At HomeStory Cup, an online replacement event for what was supposed to be the first HSC of the year. Offline or online, these two always seem to come up big when the words "HomeStory Cup" are involved.
INnoVation got off to a great start into the finals, winning an impressive macro game against Serral on Simulacrum by never letting go of his advantage after his cloaked Banshee opening had killed 15 Drones. The chairman of the Terran Reserve Bank kept the Marine printer running at max capacity, and his parade pushes forced a GG out of Serral.
After that, things went downhill quickly for INnoVation. Serral defended much better in game two on Nightshade, keeping his economy intact and crushing INnoVation’s offensives with the perfectly executed flanking maneuvers we are so used to from him. With the series tied 1-1, the Machine finally seemed to run out of steam after pulling an all-nighter and playing a good twelve hours of StarCraft 2 (granted, Serral played for a similar length of time, just with a more favorable time zone). INnoVation went for his favorite desperation move of proxy-raxing in game three, but was shut down by Serral. After that, INnoVation couldn't put up much more resistance. Serral took control with masterful Muta-Ling-Bane in games four and five, securing his fourth HomeStory Cup title in a row with a 4-1 finals victory.
The finals highlighted a splendid playoff run from Serral, who had actually struggled earlier in the group stage. He lost a cheesy series to Elazer—who himself had a fantastic tournament run—and played a very strange set of builds against Neeb which he later confirmed to be the brainchild of his Finnish compatriot ZhuGeLiang. The experimenting nearly saw him get eliminated, but he advanced after defeating Neeb 2-1 in the group decider match.
With Serral's near-perfect playoff run—INnoVation was the only one to take a map off of him—there's little doubt that this lacklustre group stage performance was no more than an anomaly. Serral, despite his reluctance to compete in online tournaments, can still be expected to be the championship favorite when he does show up.
Aside from Serral, Elazer and INnoVation delivered the stand-out performances of the tournament. Over the weekend, Elazer repeatedly said that he feels very solid in his gameplay right now, and it definitely showed in his results. The Polish Zerg eliminated both Bunny and Zest in the Ro32, won his Ro16 group in first place ahead of Serral and Neeb, and was incehs away from facing Serral again in the finals. Unfortunately for Elazer, he gave up a 0-2 lead against INnoVation in the semifinals, losing in a reverse-sweep. Still, with such a strong overall performance and his dangerous mix of very solid and very cheesy play, Elazer will be someone to keep an eye on in upcoming tournaments.
INnoVation, sleep-deprived as he must have been, had one of his best showings in recent memory. He looked especially brilliant on the second day of the tournament, shining in his matches against Clem and Reynor in the Ro16, against online-king Cure in the Ro8 (Game 1 is another must-watch!), and then during his reverse-sweep against Elazer in the semi-finals (even keeping a cool head in the face of the Polish Zerg’s proxy-hatch build). Game 1 of the finals was a masterclass in how to snowball a small advantage—certainly worth a VOD review for Terran players.
If you only have time to re-watch a single group from this tournament, I would recommend you to check out Group A from the Ro16: non-stop action awaits you as INnoVation, Reynor, Clem, and Dream battle it out in consistently awesome series.
Stay At HomeStory Cup couldn’t entirely replicate the atmosphere of a regular HSC—hardly a surprise given the circumstances. But with a plethora of guest commentators joining HSC mainstay RotterdaM on the main stream, providing their expertise and banter, SAHSC retained the tournament's unique flavor. And, guess what—a second one is coming up soon!
As if Zerg wasn't powerful enough in game, Blizzard conspired to make things impossible for Innovation by placing him in the KST timezone. Unbelievable!
On April 12 2020 19:04 pvsnp wrote: That should be Cure vs Inno Game 3, not Game 1.
Also Inno started playing 4 hours earlier than Serral since he was in Group A instead of Group C. 7 pm to 8 am for him.
You may be on to something with Game 3 instead of 1. The game I meant was the ridiculous one with Inno dropping Cure's main a million times. With with Inno vs. Clem and Dream vs. Clem happening as well there was too much great TvT going on!
On April 12 2020 19:02 TL.net ESPORTS wrote: the Machine finally seemed to run out of steam after pulling an all-nighter and playing a good twelve hours of StarCraft 2 (granted, Serral played for a similar length of time, just with a more favorable time zone).
With Inno having an over 6 hour break between his group A matches and quarterfinals series.
Well, we can just change HSC's name to Serral Cup now, since Dark, Maru, and Rogue don't want any part of it. 4peat, and this time it wasn't even close. Legend also says, even if Serral ever meets up with Maru, their PCs will spontaneously explode, and they will not be able to play against each other.
On April 12 2020 20:03 winlessplayer wrote: Protoss looking good.
Two of the best protoss went into military service, while Terran got buffed. What do we expect?
On April 12 2020 20:03 winlessplayer wrote: Protoss looking good.
What happened with the protoss 2 base shuttle pushes which were so dominating an year ago (maybe less, maybe more)? I haven;t follow the scene lately and I saw there was a big balance patch, but nothing there looked like a direct nerf to this style
It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship
Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans did), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal.
I m patiently waiting to see Command Center used as wall instead of depot against banelings run by.
Terrans already use Command center in their B2 wall, why don t do the same with too much open B4 extension (nightshade?) ? Then if it s possible they can extend to natural B4 or keep it as a defensive structure, then the wall has to be completed with a second starport or a second factory depending on build order.
Anyway, the wall could resist against 15 banelings, which is pretty safe...
On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote: I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal.
I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals.
There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference.
Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before.
The way Serral picked apart soO in game 3 and the comeback against Solar in game 2 stood out to me.
That game must have been super demoralising for Solar, and yet it still can't have been as demoralising as the failed two rax game he lost against Maru in the super tournament.
On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote: I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal.
I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals.
There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference.
Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before.
Thank you for providing some substance to the discussion. The abstract you posted kind of goes against your argument though, no? It says physical reaction time was severely affected by pulling an all-nighter among their test persons, and surely that's a big deal in TvZ.
We don't know how Inno reacted to this whole deal - maybe he pulls off something like this every week and is used to it, who knows? I don't think anyone can or should argue that lack of sleep is the reason Inno lost. It's surely not, and Serral is clearly favoured when facing him. So yeah, perhaps it's exaggerated (and I will agree that some people here unnecessarily use it as an excuse), but again, I think it is worth mentioning in a recap about the match. It's just an unusual circumstance, no more, no less. Maybe a fresh Inno would've just lost 3-4, not a big difference in the end.
On April 12 2020 21:21 TheOneAboveU wrote: I feel like Serral fans are overly defensive in here? No one is discrediting his win, and Inno didn't use anything as an excuse (granted, perhaps some of his fans), but surely it's worth stating that the circumstances of this match were everything but normal.
I think the impact of sleep deprivation is extremely exaggerated. It wasn't like Serral was playing anywhere near his ideal hours either in the finals.
There's no significant difference in performance. In an extremely high-stress situation, such as a tournament, there should be even less of a difference. Once the adrenaline kicks in, sleep deprivation matters little. I'd use the analogy of two engines, one recently oil-changed and the other hadn't seen an oil change in 40km. The dirty-oil engine is significantly less efficient at slower speeds, but once you step on the pedal full throttle, the viscosity of the old oil makes very little difference.
Studies that show students doing better on exams when not sleep-deprived are flawed, because they don't take into consideration that students who sleep responsibly are probably generally also more responsible, thus more conscientious students. I know this is anecdotal but some of my best math/science exam scores came after being extremely sleep-deprived from cramming the night before.
Thank you for providing some substance to the discussion. The abstract you posted kind of goes against your argument though, no? It says physical reaction time was severely affected by pulling an all-nighter among their test persons, and surely that's a big deal in TvZ.
We don't know how Inno reacted to this whole deal - maybe he pulls off something like this every week and is used to it, who knows? I don't think anyone can or should argue that lack of sleep is the reason Inno lost. It's surely not, and Serral is clearly favoured when facing him. So yeah, perhaps it's exaggerated (and I will agree that some people here unnecessarily use it as an excuse), but again, I think it is worth mentioning in a recap about the match. It's just an unusual circumstance, no more, no less. Maybe a fresh Inno would've just lost 3-4, not a big difference in the end.
The conclusion of the study contradicted the data in the results, though. The physical reactions times had a difference .01 s (.19 s -.18 s). I don't know why it listed the difference as .15 s. That's definitely incorrect. Regardless, I think physical reaction speed matters little compared to processing speed when it comes to SC. When you "react" in Starcraft, it isn't just muscle reaction, you have to first assess the complex situation before making a decision. The ruler drop test employed by the study doesn't factor in such complex mental processes at all.
Lots of matches have outside circumstances--bad ping, jet lag, illness, having the booth collapse on top of your head, etc. I don't know that time zones are more interesting than the others
On April 12 2020 20:03 winlessplayer wrote: Protoss looking good.
What happened with the protoss 2 base shuttle pushes which were so dominating an year ago (maybe less, maybe more)? I haven;t follow the scene lately and I saw there was a big balance patch, but nothing there looked like a direct nerf to this style
Warp prism were nerfed and charge changed.
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
While this is becoming true with the retirements, Protoss actually had the most progamers at the top in Korea in the last two years; also, if the lack of top players was the issue we would be seeing PvZ's win ratio close to 50% at lesser levels, but that's doesn't happen(take a look at Aligulac).
On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote: It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship
Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC.
I mean, discussions like this are exactly why offline events are the gold standard. :D It's kind of great this is highlighted once in a while. They just eliminate a lot of those those little factors.
Was a cool tournament, not sure how much we can read into online results played cross server and at strange hours, other than that Elazer is in pretty good form right now and Solar, Inno, and Serral are good at the game.
On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote: It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship
Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC.
I propose 3.682561 HSC for Serral, and 4.58126 GSL for Maru. All based on careful calculation of course
On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote: It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship
Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
Serral won his fourth HSC event in a row; I agree that it wasn't a proper HSC, but it's still a little better than "only" winning three offline HSC.
I propose 3.682561 HSC for Serral, and 4.58126 GSL for Maru. All based on careful calculation of course
Okay, but only if we also acknowledge that his 2 GSL vs the world wins give Serral 0.93418 GSLs too
I feel like both of them makes some mistakes that they always make in thr last games in the finals, but this mistakes don't occurs quite often usually, so staying up all night probably matters? Reaction time getting longer surely matters a lot for sc2, and for terran. But when both players are equally tired, it surely shows that serral is just a bit stronger than anyone now.
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
Great tournament, given the circumstances. Lots of action packed gamea, as well. Kudos to the players, but also to the casters, observers and production!
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
Exactly, bring Back Code A! And flattern the price money Distribution curve! I couldn t care less about how much the dinner of a tournament makes, I care about how many pros can make a sustainable living of their sport
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
i agree with a lot of this...at what point would there be statistical significance to confidently say that the game is balanced? SC is a complex adaptive system and it's always changing with new players, new metas, new maps, patches, etc. in a weird way, the game is always going to be self balancing i.e. if a player figures out how to win "too much" then other players can and will copy. then boom, balance patch. it's an interesting dynamic in that to be at the top you must not only have the best mechanics, strategy, executive, etc, but you also must be be adaptable. i love this game
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
Exactly, bring Back Code A! And flattern the price money Distribution curve! I couldn t care less about how much the dinner of a tournament makes, I care about how many pros can make a sustainable living of their sport
If they bring back Code A in its old form and flattened the prize money distribution it would just go to the "B-tier veterans". The only way to grow new talent would be actually make tournaments for or give qualifier/tournament spots to younger players. There have been a few tournaments like that in the western scene but nothing in korea that I know of.
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
I'd say it's pretty true across the board, there's some good EU toss but they never do shit compare to the zerg and lately the terran.
But even if it's a case of a lack of protoss at the very top, I personally think it wouldn't be crazy to buff toss anyway to give a chance for some player to grow. We still haven't had a WESG/IEM/WCS world champ since sOs and next Katowice come to pass there's a good chance Neeb will be the only protoss to have win any kind of event since 2016.
balance arguments have long obscured the simple reality that the pool of top sc2 players is almost completely stagnant. race distribution in tournaments means literally nothing. the combination of effort and skill required to go from being a high GM level player to a championship class player are immense, and there isn't a vacuum of winnings motivating players to take that step
if you buff toss for the purpose of giving players "a chance to grow" it won't improve the talent pool, it's more likely to just create a situation like the old pvt blink meta where B-tier veterans start racking up wins against A-tier players without expending any more effort or becoming better. the missing link in motivating new players to rise up is a wider spread of money and winnings being made available
not a single top player would be as good as they are if they weren't all in the narrow bracket of players making steady money from sc2. they would all still be skilled gamers, but they wouldn't be playing on the same level
because of the small, unchanging pool of players, balance is actually ridiculously hard to measure in a meaningful way. at this point it's bordering on statistically impossible to determine whether pro winrates represent racial dynamics or just specific players being well or poorly matched against specific other players
Exactly, bring Back Code A! And flattern the price money Distribution curve! I couldn t care less about how much the dinner of a tournament makes, I care about how many pros can make a sustainable living of their sport
If they bring back Code A in its old form and flattened the prize money distribution it would just go to the "B-tier veterans". The only way to grow new talent would be actually make tournaments for or give qualifier/tournament spots to younger players. There have been a few tournaments like that in the western scene but nothing in korea that I know of.
Plenty of opportunity to practice in ESL Cup this year.
There's an inherent advantage for a race if the talent pool for that race is small: It means that if you play that race, your opponents of differing races have less opportunity to practice against yours. Teams will also covet you more.
On April 12 2020 21:10 MockHamill wrote: Protoss are fine - they just lack players at the very top compared to Zerg and Terran.
Tournament results reflect this, as they should.
Strong delusion lol
The reality of the situation is that Protoss has been.....drastically changed....over the last two years
The last Protoss player to win a big time premier tournament was stats in 2017. After that no Protoss player won a Code S or big payday tournament (IEM, WESG, blizzcon). It's been Neeb farming north america and kespa era Koreans in classic and stats taking turns winning some smaller tournaments.
Immensely talented players like zest, sos, classic, stats, and hero who have dominated before can no longer take it all the way in big tournaments (classic and hero have obviously retired)
Enough with the myth that the Protoss players are simply less talented. Unfortunately Blizzard listens to the widespread anti-protoss whine among the sc2 community and it's going to kill the game. To be honest if Blizzard keeps up with this nonsense of making one race non trophy viable, the game deserves to die.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
What people have been commenting about above regarding the winners of the last year or two in bigger tournaments are perhaps a bigger issue than the results in the weekly cup this year....
If a new, young, talented players started to improve a lot and loved the game and decided to go all in for trying to make it as a pro then choosing toss would be an insane choice. The wins for toss are very few these last couple of years (and now i dont refer to weekly cups).
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
And without dark, rogue, Soo, and reynor (for the majority).
That chart shows nothing other than B tier Zergs are favorites over A tier protoss. Think about that-second rate zergs are more successful than the best of the best for protoss.
On April 12 2020 22:31 Waxangel wrote: Lots of matches have outside circumstances--bad ping, jet lag, illness, having the booth collapse on top of your head, etc. I don't know that time zones are more interesting than the others
For some reason the starcraft community always seems to discredit these things compared to other esports. Even if cases were you can clearly see someones up till 5AM playing or just flew in from a different timezone.
Especially with travel, no one in sc2 seems to give players any leeway for results when they just spent 12 hours flying across the world (this goes for both koreans and foreigners).
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
Serral is the best player of all time. Nobody is on his level right now. There has never been a player that has dominated in the scene as much as he has in any video game ever. Serral truly is the greatest esport athlete the world has ever seen.
On April 14 2020 01:18 serralfan18 wrote: Serral is the best player of all time. Nobody is on his level right now. There has never been a player that has dominated in the scene as much as he has in any video game ever. Serral truly is the greatest esport athlete the world has ever seen.
Well, dude's gotta be doing something right to inspire the amount of trolls he does. But hey, you live your best quarantine life, bro.
Also I know it's the internet, but the "truly" was a little over-the-top sarcasm-wise.
On April 12 2020 22:31 Waxangel wrote: Lots of matches have outside circumstances--bad ping, jet lag, illness, having the booth collapse on top of your head, etc. I don't know that time zones are more interesting than the others
"...having a booth collapse on top of your head" lol. I was gonna say Gumiho will never live this down, but arguably that was one of his most triumphant victories. What a LEGEND.
It's entertaining to see this convo turn into a debate over the science of sleep deprivation (FWIW, you can parse a particular study to support whatever thesis you're going for, but there have been so many studies on this and sleep deprivation is pretty much good for nothing other than partying like a bawler).
All jokes aside, as much as I'd like to see others from the foreign scene step up, you gotta give Serral credit for another great win. I say this as a huge Maru fan who also prefers the way Rogue, Reynor, and others play Zerg to Serral's style.
How many does the guy gotta win to get a little love?
And to the defensive Serral fans out there: no need. Your boy is killing it. Enjoy it while it lasts! Don't mind the haters.
Us Maru fans are just jealous about having to live in perpetual fear of another random major tournament group stage exit.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
The problem basically boils down to what brickrd wrote: No one knows if it's balance, or if the zerg players are actually better.
Serral and Dark are 2 standout players. I wouldn't put rogue or soo on the same level as them. If you balance the game around bringing players like Serral and Dark down, are you balancing the game, or "balancing" the players?
How does buffing a race to be able to beat Serral/Dark improve the game? Would tuning into a tournament to see Skillous bop Serral really be what players want to see?
I don't know how many people watched the Inno vs Serral replays, but Serrals macro was unbelievable. Innovation is famous before being a macro machine, and Serral out-macro'd him. He didn't do anything special or abusive, he just... played better
On April 14 2020 01:18 serralfan18 wrote: Serral is the best player of all time. Nobody is on his level right now. There has never been a player that has dominated in the scene as much as he has in any video game ever. Serral truly is the greatest esport athlete the world has ever seen.
User was warned for this post
Look up the name Flash. He is the real greatest esport athlete in the world
MVP of this tournament was the guy/girl who chipped in 2k in the pool at the end, bringing the overall amount to almost 9k bucks gifted for a second (Stay@) HomeStoryCup!
Also congratz to Serral and Take! for another awesome run in our favorite past time activity (take that footi )
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
The problem basically boils down to what brickrd wrote: No one knows if it's balance, or if the zerg players are actually better.
Serral and Dark are 2 standout players. I wouldn't put rogue or soo on the same level as them. If you balance the game around bringing players like Serral and Dark down, are you balancing the game, or "balancing" the players?
How does buffing a race to be able to beat Serral/Dark improve the game? Would tuning into a tournament to see Skillous bop Serral really be what players want to see?
I don't know how many people watched the Inno vs Serral replays, but Serrals macro was unbelievable. Innovation is famous before being a macro machine, and Serral out-macro'd him. He didn't do anything special or abusive, he just... played better
Dude, it's no longer April 1.
Zest, trap, and stats are standout players. Blizzard has had no problem 'balancing' the game around them.
I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
The problem basically boils down to what brickrd wrote: No one knows if it's balance, or if the zerg players are actually better.
Serral and Dark are 2 standout players. I wouldn't put rogue or soo on the same level as them. If you balance the game around bringing players like Serral and Dark down, are you balancing the game, or "balancing" the players?
How does buffing a race to be able to beat Serral/Dark improve the game? Would tuning into a tournament to see Skillous bop Serral really be what players want to see?
I don't know how many people watched the Inno vs Serral replays, but Serrals macro was unbelievable. Innovation is famous before being a macro machine, and Serral out-macro'd him. He didn't do anything special or abusive, he just... played better
Dude, it's no longer April 1.
Zest, trap, and stats are standout players. Blizzard has had no problem 'balancing' the game around them.
yeah this. there's absolutely no reason to assume Dark/Serral are just better than Zest/Trap or Maru/Inno and in previous cases when single terran or protoss players were dominating the nerf bat came always pretty fast. They are just reluctant to nerf Zerg right now because they want to benefit from the Serral foreigner hype train.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
The problem basically boils down to what brickrd wrote: No one knows if it's balance, or if the zerg players are actually better.
Serral and Dark are 2 standout players. I wouldn't put rogue or soo on the same level as them. If you balance the game around bringing players like Serral and Dark down, are you balancing the game, or "balancing" the players?
How does buffing a race to be able to beat Serral/Dark improve the game? Would tuning into a tournament to see Skillous bop Serral really be what players want to see?
I don't know how many people watched the Inno vs Serral replays, but Serrals macro was unbelievable. Innovation is famous before being a macro machine, and Serral out-macro'd him. He didn't do anything special or abusive, he just... played better
Dude, it's no longer April 1.
Zest, trap, and stats are standout players. Blizzard has had no problem 'balancing' the game around them.
yeah this. there's absolutely no reason to assume Dark/Serral are just better than Zest/Trap or Maru/Inno and in previous cases when single terran or protoss players were dominating the nerf bat came always pretty fast. They are just reluctant to nerf Zerg right now because they want to benefit from the Serral foreigner hype train.
This relies heavily on the dream that blizzard cares about sc2 at all
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
On April 12 2020 21:14 sneakyfox wrote: It's not actually Serral's fourth HSC victory in a row, because it wasn't actually a HSC. Let's not equate online cups with the very unique offline spectacle that the HSC is. So congrats to Serral with his first Stay At HomeStory Cup championship
Big thanks to the organizers and casters for the event. Hope you spread it out over a few more days next time.
Yeah and the huge amount of zergs over performing the past years is just a complete coincidence.
On April 13 2020 21:56 Dave4 wrote: Just came to read why Serrals latest championship doesn't mean anything like every other one he wins; thread did not disappoint.
Just to expand on this, you can look at the ESL opens for a direct representation of tournaments without serral:
Now if you take those really quite balanced results, and then insert serral, it would be a pretty safe bet they would swing violently in favor of zerg.
While it might seem weird, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the very top competitive level. After all, if Blizz clearly does some balance tweaks focused at the higher skill-levels, why can't that approach scale up to the very highest levels of play? Basically, it's as valid to say you want the game to be balanced for the top 10 players as it is to say you want it to be balanced for the top 100, or the top 1000.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for this right now, but from the POV of an esports fan and viewer (the majority of these forums), I don't see anything wrong with wanting the game to be balanced around the championship-tier.
The problem basically boils down to what brickrd wrote: No one knows if it's balance, or if the zerg players are actually better.
Serral and Dark are 2 standout players. I wouldn't put rogue or soo on the same level as them. If you balance the game around bringing players like Serral and Dark down, are you balancing the game, or "balancing" the players?
How does buffing a race to be able to beat Serral/Dark improve the game? Would tuning into a tournament to see Skillous bop Serral really be what players want to see?
I don't know how many people watched the Inno vs Serral replays, but Serrals macro was unbelievable. Innovation is famous before being a macro machine, and Serral out-macro'd him. He didn't do anything special or abusive, he just... played better
Dude, it's no longer April 1.
Zest, trap, and stats are standout players. Blizzard has had no problem 'balancing' the game around them.
yeah this. there's absolutely no reason to assume Dark/Serral are just better than Zest/Trap or Maru/Inno and in previous cases when single terran or protoss players were dominating the nerf bat came always pretty fast. They are just reluctant to nerf Zerg right now because they want to benefit from the Serral foreigner hype train.
This relies heavily on the dream that blizzard cares about sc2 at all
Pretty much this. It's delusional to think that Blizzard gives one iota about fanciful foreigner hype bias for a game they support more for legacy than any real financials at this point.
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
Serral lost at WESG 2018 in the Groupstage to Neeb 0-2
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
Serral lost at WESG 2018 in the Groupstage to Neeb 0-2
Fair enough, I didn't look through all the group stages, figured it didn't much matter since he made it out but that doesn't make you less right.
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
what are you talking about? The WESG started in 2017. Serral lost to Maru in 2018 and WESG 2019 was won by Innovation
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
what are you talking about? The WESG started in 2017. Serral lost to Maru in 2018 and WESG 2019 was won by Innovation
their tournament naming is.. confusing. Since they start qualifiers in the autumn of a specific year, but play finals in the March of the next year. But they use the Year # of when the qualifiers began: thus the WESG 2018 grand finals was played in 2019.
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
You might be thinking of a different tournament...Serral didn't play in WESG 2016, after the Maru bop at WESG 2017 Serral lost 4-3 in the finals to Inno at WESG 2018, and WESG 2019 hasn't happened yet.
what are you talking about? The WESG started in 2017. Serral lost to Maru in 2018 and WESG 2019 was won by Innovation
No WESG 2019 hasn't happen yet, they always run a year back for some reason.
I kinda watched the German and English streams in parallel this time. While the English one was of course a more neutral professional cast, Take and Naruto really kept the Homestory Cup vibe alive on their end, was really fun to watch
On April 15 2020 01:33 ScrappyRabbit wrote: I'm more of a Maru guy, but Serral is freakishly consistent. Not only does he get to at least the semis of pretty much every tournament he DOESN'T win, but it goes even further than that: The 2019 WCS Summer Finals, when he lost 4-2 to Reynor, was the only match in a premier tournament he's lost by more than one map since WESG 2017. The man is simply un-boppable. (If I'm forgetting a tournament, please let me know.)
I think Neeb bopped him a couple of times, but maybe not by more than 2 maps. At 2018 WESG it was 0:2 if I remember correctly. Maru was probably the last player to crush Serral in a brutal, almost embarrassing manner. The 3:0 at WESG even included a game where Maru won with around 4 SCVs left after Serral cheesed him. Than there was that awkward moment where Time almost 3:0 Serral but he felt apart in the end and lost the series.
Cool point! It is indeed freakishly rare for Serral to lose more than 1 map. MarianoSC2 covers some big examples. That Maru series was shocking! But I recall one additional recent occasion as well. At IEM Katowice 2020, Serral lost 2-0 to the Korean Protoss, Hurricane.
It was drawn to my attention that Serral had already earned a ticket out of his group when this series happened - indeed he won the group and it was possible his motivation was low . But I don't want to take anything away from Hurricane, he pulled off some cool strats and beat one of the best and perhaps most consistently best players of the current era.
EPT
![[image loading]](/staff/Waxangel/homestorycup/stayhsc.jpg)
Serral faced the Korean Machine 
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/illFhR1.png)
