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United Kingdom20281 Posts
On December 08 2019 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 03:22 Boggyb wrote:On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money. This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in? What do you propose? Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts. It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general. I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
I agree 100%. This kind of shady behavior has been a plague on sc2 (+ many other esports) and it's past time we took real action to stomp it out.
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Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public
But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Sure we could go by how much we like a player, how much money he brings in for their team, or by what race they play. Think Zerg is IMBA? Booom, no money for zerg players.
esports is a business, and it can only continue to be a legit business, if we hold it to business standards.
Facts:
* 2 parties signed a contract
* 1 party is not willing to fulfil their side of the deal
In any other context, would you say it's fair for an employee to have to fight for their salary? To have to pay for expenses their profession demands (travelling)?
It doesn't matter whether or not you like the Player, it doesn't matter whether or not they were streaming (unless that was in the contract). Players sign contracts, teams have to pay - it's really that easy.
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France12761 Posts
Such a shame to read this. Hopefully it can be solved soon, and a pity you had to do this publicly to have a shot at getting your money back.
About his results, as others pointed out: it’s not relevant except if there were minimum results or something in the contract ; it doesn’t help you perform well when what should be a formality (having flights booked by the org, in time etc.) becomes pressure and stress as you have to book things yourself at the last minute because your team gave you the silent treatment. No wonder Nerchio didn’t perform as well as in the past if he was dealing with shit like this.
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On December 08 2019 17:54 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 16:24 SC-Shield wrote:On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote:
17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable. The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet. This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair. Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side. Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote:
To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it. Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
Yeah I think that’s fair, while I would tend to believe a community stalwarts like Nerchio (and I do here), we still have to consider the possibility that he’s not being truthful as you say and what the ramifications would be for an individual wielding their clout in a community with ill intent.
Alternatively Nerchio could be completely telling the truth, but there is some genuine mitigating circumstance at Mker’s end as well, which if the case their lack of response thus far would be pretty mystifying to me.
To clarify I’ve been pretty forceful in this thread, but mostly about what I think should be done for any hypothetical team who doesn’t honour contracts and whatnot, not judging Mkers in this specific example as guilty and sharpening the pitchfork.
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Bisutopia19212 Posts
That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On December 08 2019 23:25 BisuDagger wrote:
That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
Man the quality of political representatives in Bisutopia seems even worse than elsewhere in the world.
Good you were able to extricate yourself and land on your feet, can be a really tough move to make especially in certain industries where there’s almost an expectation of cutting your teeth unpaid to get on the ladder.
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On December 08 2019 23:25 BisuDagger wrote:
That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
Couldn't agree more. It's frankly insane how many businesses and institutions that expect people to work for them for free. While they are making money. And of course people often feel like they can't say no because without having that on their CV they think they can never get paid work.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 08 2019 17:54 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 16:24 SC-Shield wrote:On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote:
17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable. The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet. This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair. Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side. Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote:
To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it. Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
He can't show the private communication either. Just FYI. There's a reason the communication is private 
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On December 08 2019 07:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2019 07:28 Boggyb wrote:On December 08 2019 03:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 08 2019 03:22 Boggyb wrote:On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money. This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in? What do you propose? Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts. It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general. I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved: What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties. What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport. How do you have a union in a multinational industry that crosses many different borders and different legal and employment codes? As someone who is a strong advocate of unionisation I don’t see how this is workable at all
Unions operate in the U.S. and have to deal with 50 different sets of state labor laws along with the federal ones. It would difficult but not impossible. The logical thing to do would be to start in South Korea and the United States then start expanding country by country as it makes sense.
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don't form a team if you can't pay your players
fuck the rest.
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On December 09 2019 01:52 joon wrote:
don't form a team if you can't pay your players
fuck the rest.
Very few people form a business assuming they are going to fail.
Also, as shitty as some situations can be, players are lucky that teams exist because the economics of it don't really make much sense.
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On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote:
17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
i think you might mean corroboration rather than collaboration ?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
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Northern Ireland24410 Posts
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote:
I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
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Why arent payments by tournament organizers given directly to players?
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On December 09 2019 04:31 Steelghost1 wrote:
Why arent payments by tournament organizers given directly to players?
The UFC avoided all kinds of shenanigans that happens with many Boxing Orgs by always giving the cheque//check made payable to the fighter and handed in person to the fighter.
If the fighter wanted to pay any kinds of management personnel or other helpers he or she could do that with the money they got from the UFC.
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On December 09 2019 08:10 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 04:31 Steelghost1 wrote:
Why arent payments by tournament organizers given directly to players? The UFC avoided all kinds of shenanigans that happens with many Boxing Orgs by always giving the cheque//check made payable to the fighter and handed in person to the fighter. If the fighter wanted to pay any kinds of management personnel or other helpers he or she could do that with the money they got from the UFC.
That seems like a very reasonable way to go about it. Reduce bureaucracy, increase direct control for players.
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Interesting that Mkers is still not responding to this officially.
I think that an international Players Union for eSports is really needed. Membership shouldnt be too expensive. On top they should take a certain percentge from prize money.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On December 09 2019 04:25 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote:
I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements. I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
Being in the right would mean MKers would have to pay for the fees, question is if they have the money to pay the fees. Well, that's my naive view and a thing I would be expecting to be covered by the EU law.
Edit> But I understand that the initial costs are probably so much that even MKers paying for it later would be way too much for Nerchio and going to the court just out of a principle isn't probably what he's used to do(and if he doesn't have the money he can't anyway  )
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EPT
