On December 26 2019 02:42 Nerchio wrote: I would like to inform you about the solution to the problem of missing salary from Mkers team. As a result of talks between lawyers, the money is in my account and I consider this matter so far to be resolved.
Hello everyone,
As of writing this post Mkers organization still owes me salary for 2 months as well as reimbursement for 2 WCS tournaments in Kiev (WCS Spring and WCS Summer). I was hesitating about coming forward with this information for the past 2 months as I was still hoping we can resolve this situation on good terms but Mkers has ceased all communications with me and it shows that they want to keep my money in their own pocket.
This message will be about the dark side of esports and bad treatment of players by teams which might go unnoticed if players don’t decide to come forward with their own problems which very often are sad and embarrassing. I am pretty well known in Starcraft 2 scene and had a fair share of success in my career, so imagine if it happened to me then it can happen to any of your favourite players and especially players that are less known than me. I consider myself lucky because in 9 years of my career I always parted ways with teams on good terms but unfortunately it is a different story with Mkers.
Before signing with Mkers we agreed that all main Starcraft 2 events travel and accommodation will be paid by the team (if agreed beforehand) and everything went smooth in those regards only for the first event under the contract – IEM Katowice 2019. After that I tried to contact the organization to prepare the accommodation and travel for WCS Spring ahead of time so we would get cheaper flights as well as hotel. Very often time is of the essence in this matter because hotels close to the tournament venue are usually booked really fast or prices skyrocket and you unnecessarily have to overpay. But it might be just matter of convenience. For WCS Summer and WCS Spring tournament organizer required players to confirm their participation by sending your flight tickets and hotel booking around 1 week before the tournament started.
The biggest problem is that Mkers organization never responded to me before WCS Spring and I was finally forced to book everything myself at the last moment before the tournament (less than 1 week) or I would be risking withdrawal from the tournament. I was already talking to the organizers that I have troubles with the team booking and asking them for additional time to confirm my slot in the tournament. The thing about all of this is that it puts insane amount of pressure on the player when the team acts like what I described above. Traveling abroad for professional tournament should be planned beforehand from start to finish. Of course I tried signaling this to the team but I might as well have been talking to a wall. In terms of salary at this point I was still being paid although the payments started coming in late like 1 month and I usually had to ask many times for them. Before WCS Summer Mkers informed me about the termination of my contract which was signed until the end of year although they might have forgotten that there is a month of notice in the contract.
The whole communication from the upper management was run through managers who couldn’t really get in touch with the organization itself very often and all my official emails to Mkers were never really responded to.
My salaries for last 2 months playing for Mkers were never paid. As of today I am still fighting to get my money back but of course Mkers is hiding behind the cost of legal dispute over contract between entities from different countries.
I bring this story forward to open your eyes about problems that many players have to deal with but many times are not heard of. If it happened to me, it can happen to anyone in Starcraft 2 scene. We need to hold accountable those teams that hurt the players and fail to fulfill their obligations because it is not always possible or easy through court.
Thank you for reading and remember to support your favourite players in the best and the worst times.
Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Very sorry to hear this Nerchio. It is quite frankly outrageous to treat employees this way and is of course very bad for the health and development of the Starcraft pro scene to have these things.
Really hope Mkers get their shit together and own up to the agreements.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
GL getting your money back, suck to know there are still so many shady people in esport, at least Maker is still in sc2, maybe they will make things right.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team >??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Meh, if they want to whine, then they needed to negociate his contract with results clauses. It seems they didn't so they better damn pay their employee.
sadly this thread will soon be filled with scam artist worshipers trying to sell us the incoherent moral position that if someone places professional trust in another person and/or doesn't have the legal knowledge or leverage to pursue justice that they somehow "deserve" to be scammed and robbed
Yes, this is unacceptable. If this team is still involved in Starcraft 2 they should suffer consequences for clearly immoral behavior like this.
I don't know if the WCS system has some kind of means to officially penalize teams that don't abide by their contracts (they really should if they don't), but certainly fans should not support them until this is rectified.
I fully support your coming forward and know how hard it is as a player to do that. Really hope you can get your money man.
That said.... you haven't actually posted anything in the department of proof or evidence... :/
Could you at least post some chat log where you're attempting to get your response or something? As much as I'd love to see an org burn and die for doing this disgusting shit, it's always good to see proof first.
And to go even further... If you do indeed have that proof, please, please god send it to a twitch admin (one of the teams only real sponsors as far as I can see?)
If this team is doing it to YOU, someone who has been around for so long, then chances are they are doing it to their other players as well. I'm sure companies like Twitch would not be happy to hear about that.
and edit:
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: I'm an idiot
Yeah, we know. 2 posts, fuck off.
also edit: a better thread title would be more ideal imo... it currently has an almost clicky bait title.. >.>
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
I really hope you are a staff member of Mkers or something, because if you are a random guy just trolling here... well... jesus christ...
It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
eSports doesn’t have to be a Wild West, especially not Starcraft because Blizzard actively run so much of the scene and are thus in a position to regulate.
Sometimes a business does go bust and can’t meet certain financial obligations sure, that’s slightly different than a team having a roster that they’ve since added to while not honouring agreements made with an ex player.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
I think a key lesson here is if a team is late to pay once, players need to stop representing them until they catch up on the pay instead of letting them fall further and further behind in paying and then ending up being owed a lot.
Contracts should include that as a clause, no more work until late pay is received.
On December 08 2019 03:07 Zzoram wrote: I think a key lesson here is if a team is late to pay once, players need to stop representing them until they catch up on the pay instead of letting them fall further and further behind in paying and then ending up being owed a lot.
Contracts should include that as a clause, no more work until late pay is received.
yes, and workers should also unionize to protect their rights, but often they don't because they are afraid of damaging their professional relationships
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
I suppose he does not want the players from MKERS to be banned, but the team. Players can play, but without representing the team.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
On December 08 2019 03:41 tigon_ridge wrote: This should become a lawsuit. Something like this must never be allowed to happen without some sharp repercussion.
If they are from a different country than the player it can cost extra and they will profit from that situation (which is stupid). I don't like Nerchio (i really really don't) BUT what happened to him is just stupid and should not happen.
Especially after 10 years, we are not playing WoL where nobody knew how to make and sign contracts...
On December 08 2019 03:41 tigon_ridge wrote: This should become a lawsuit. Something like this must never be allowed to happen without some sharp repercussion.
Saddly it probably won't happen, the amount of money should be relatively low, and doing lawsuit between Poland and Italy is probably a mess (just translating all the legal document would cost a shitload), especially since it's unclear if Maker would really be able to pay any kind of compensation anyway.
Anyway, I say that but I'm not an expert maybe it can be done.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties.
What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties.
What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport.
How do you have a union in a multinational industry that crosses many different borders and different legal and employment codes?
As someone who is a strong advocate of unionisation I don’t see how this is workable at all
Ultimately who’s going to be the arbiter here anyway? Blizzard?
How is that functionally any different from me suggesting Blizzard should punish teams who don’t honour their contracts to players?
Also traditional unions only have power because they can balance reasonably small due fees by large, large numbers of folks who belong to said union.
Maybe a union that encompasses a large chunk of eSport pros can raise sufficient revenue to bring such legal actions when they arise, sure.
I don’t think it’s an ideal situation but if a company like Blizzard, or a Riot or a Valve who have both an eSports presence and run a large chunk of their own game’s eSports, they should intercede in such cases both for their image and the integrity and sustainability of their own competitions. It organisations are just being dicks to employees, ban them. If said orgs aren’t being dicks but are completely broke, then you can’t build tournaments around said organisations and they should be cut.
For the time being until eSports matures further I think this makes far more pragmatic sense.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
Hey asshole. post that contract. How do you know if Nerchio is telling the truth? Was Nerchio fulfilling that contract?
Literally said in my first post on the matter ‘if Nerchio’s version of events is accurate’ but nice try.
The wisdom of Mkers throwing money at him or not isn’t the issue, it’s if they aren’t honouring their agreed obligations.
The CraftCup accidentally overpaid Nerchio several years ago. He paid it back in less than 15 minutes. His "public persona" at the time was that he could be somewhat of a troublemaker. However, when it came to dealing with the CraftCup, the referees and admin personnel the guy was super easy to deal with and made everyone's job as easy as possible. Behind the scenes the guy was great.
I have no idea what Nerchio's "public persona" is these days.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
Hey asshole. post that contract. How do you know if Nerchio is telling the truth? Was Nerchio fulfilling that contract?
Hey polite, cordial, and reasonable poster. Do you think addressing people this way will further the discourse in any meaningful manner?
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
Hey asshole. post that contract. How do you know if Nerchio is telling the truth? Was Nerchio fulfilling that contract?
Literally said in my first post on the matter ‘if Nerchio’s version of events is accurate’ but nice try.
The wisdom of Mkers throwing money at him or not isn’t the issue, it’s if they aren’t honouring their agreed obligations.
"if". Good one. So you are just talking out of your ass
The fuck are you talking about? Fuck off.
My posts were preceded with ‘if Nerchio’s account is accurate’ and anything I said from there was with that important caveat in mind.
Your, rather short posting history basically equates to (totally not damage control) that Nerchio is bad and didn’t deserve his money.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties.
What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport.
How do you have a union in a multinational industry that crosses many different borders and different legal and employment codes?
As someone who is a strong advocate of unionisation I don’t see how this is workable at all
Ultimately who’s going to be the arbiter here anyway? Blizzard?
How is that functionally any different from me suggesting Blizzard should punish teams who don’t honour their contracts to players?
I would be curious to know how sports league do it, I know in NA some (all?) big sports league have a player union, but it is a traditionnaly a mess to negociate both with the league and each team manager.
Honestly I think "our" best bet is some kind of public or etatic juristiction of esport. For exemple if as a team you needed to ask a the status of "esport organisation in X game" to the EU which would give you a specific legal existence and come with some specific amount of rules to follow and if you didn't you would lose you autorisation to compete in tournament in the EU. (or got a fine or a suspension or whatever) Of course that mean tournaments would also need to be under that governing body (and maybe the player too?)
It's not really an idea for this century but it's the best idea that pop into my head. (of course you can start with that and end up with another IOC)
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
Hey asshole. post that contract. How do you know if Nerchio is telling the truth? Was Nerchio fulfilling that contract?
Literally said in my first post on the matter ‘if Nerchio’s version of events is accurate’ but nice try.
The wisdom of Mkers throwing money at him or not isn’t the issue, it’s if they aren’t honouring their agreed obligations.
"if". Good one. So you are just talking out of your ass
The fuck are you talking about? Fuck off.
My posts were preceded with ‘if Nerchio’s account is accurate’ and anything I said from there was with that important caveat in mind.
Your, rather short posting history basically equates to (totally not damage control) that Nerchio is bad and didn’t deserve his money.
"If that contract was fulfilled by Nerchio, he deserves the money". What a wise post.
This sort of shit has happened enough that it's real easy to believe Nerchio. Plenty of shitbag companies run by scumbags don't like to pay their players.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties.
What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport.
How do you have a union in a multinational industry that crosses many different borders and different legal and employment codes?
As someone who is a strong advocate of unionisation I don’t see how this is workable at all
Ultimately who’s going to be the arbiter here anyway? Blizzard?
How is that functionally any different from me suggesting Blizzard should punish teams who don’t honour their contracts to players?
I would be curious to know how sports league do it, I know in NA some (all?) big sports league have a player union, but it is a traditionnaly a mess to negociate both with the league and each team manager.
Honestly I think "our" best bet is some kind of public or etatic juristiction of esport. For exemple if as a team you needed to ask a the status of "esport organisation in X game" to the EU which would give you a specific legal existence and come with some specific amount of rules to follow and if you didn't you would lose you autorisation to compete in tournament in the EU. (or got a fine or a suspension or whatever) Of course that mean tournaments would also need to be under that governing body (and maybe the player too?)
It's not really an idea for this century but it's the best idea that pop into my head. (of course you can start with that and end up with another IOC)
Well as real world sport examples go (sadly) we’ve had a fair few of English football teams get docked points in their respective leagues for not paying wages to staff (not just players but administrative staff too)
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
Utterly fucking irrelevant, go Google ‘contract’ before you spout even more bollocks on your third post.
Hey asshole. post that contract. How do you know if Nerchio is telling the truth? Was Nerchio fulfilling that contract?
Literally said in my first post on the matter ‘if Nerchio’s version of events is accurate’ but nice try.
The wisdom of Mkers throwing money at him or not isn’t the issue, it’s if they aren’t honouring their agreed obligations.
"if". Good one. So you are just talking out of your ass
The fuck are you talking about? Fuck off.
My posts were preceded with ‘if Nerchio’s account is accurate’ and anything I said from there was with that important caveat in mind.
Your, rather short posting history basically equates to (totally not damage control) that Nerchio is bad and didn’t deserve his money.
"If that contract was fulfilled by Nerchio, he deserves the money". What a wise post.
Well I hate to toot my own horn but it really is. This is what contracts are.
As to the wisdom of giving him said contract it’s another thing, but if you do so you have to honour it.
Interesting how two totally not the same people got banned from the site for spouting anti-Nerchio nonsense and who seemingly only appeared on the site today!
As usual, disgusting organization who doesn't even have the decency to respond publicly and had to use some smurf accounts. Pathetic much? Somehow Duracell and Armani sponsor this despicable organization. Disappointing.
Unfortunately this is nothing new in esports. Even big LoL and CS:GO organizations and players signed to them are affected by this. ENCE in CS:GO has a pretty bad reputation right now, as does Griffin in the LCK for example. I don't understand why it happens so much in esports, especially when players have unions and lawyers representing them.
On December 07 2019 22:53 carlosB. wrote: Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Just registered to post this. Gee I wonder who you might be.
Situation as described by nerchio seems pretty clear, team owes him money, which if contractually agreed upon should be possible to get. Nerchio I hope you have legal counselling in this case, I think it would would help you acquire your money in the end. Travel expanses might be tricky if the team didn't agree to it prior to the tournament, but the salary seems like a clear cut thing.
Smart move by Nerchio; Sign for a team > ??? > "Where is ma money!?". Who are you?
I wonder who Carlos is... HMMMMM.....
Scammers, frauds and cheaters; Mkers. I hope they crash and burn and that their kind are never able to be involved with any e-sport in the future. If only hopes could come true.
17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
This looks bad but I reserve the right to judge after I see everything. We only have half the story so far and while I don't doubt Nerchio blind faith is bad faith when it comes to witch hunts, we need to be very careful as to how we react until we know more.
But if this is true, then I hope someone offers him cheap litigation to settle any debts owed if things don't get resolved.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
What proof do you expect? He can't show you his contract because it's confidential probably. He can't show you his bank account because... it's private. The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair.
Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side.
On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote: To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it.
Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair.
Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side.
On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote: To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it.
Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
MKers can, and probably should have given a statement to clarify the situation from their side - they have not done so. Then again, it is weekend, so we might as well keep sharpening the pitchforks.
It is aweful to read that you have been treated this way. I hope that your post reaches the many influential people who are part of the TL community to change things for the better and help you.
Organizations who work with players should be both forthcoming and supportive of the people they sponsor. They are bound by a professional standard expected from any employer, whether in e-sports or elsewhere. SC2 players should not have to run after their money, they should be playing the game that brings us so much joy all around the world.
If Mkers claims a different version of events, it should be reaching out to you in order to clarify the situation. This is the minimum they could do for you and anyone else working for them.
Please keep this thread alive, in hope that Nerchio will receive a reply from Mkers and be able to resolve his claims in a productive way.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair.
Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side.
Even chat log without response could be faked. It's much better to hear from Mkers.
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
I agree 100%. This kind of shady behavior has been a plague on sc2 (+ many other esports) and it's past time we took real action to stomp it out.
Did someone notice that he actually played? That he represented a Team and/or Sponsor? To be honest, last time i have heard somethig of Nerchio was during the Roach/Bane Allin times during HotS. What does he need a team for? Pretty sure all he does for the team is putting a couple of letters in front of his nick. Has Nerchio been streaming? Oh no wait, cant make those allins public But make sure to support your favorite player, especially after he wishes death on someone
Sure we could go by how much we like a player, how much money he brings in for their team, or by what race they play. Think Zerg is IMBA? Booom, no money for zerg players.
esports is a business, and it can only continue to be a legit business, if we hold it to business standards.
Facts: * 2 parties signed a contract * 1 party is not willing to fulfil their side of the deal
In any other context, would you say it's fair for an employee to have to fight for their salary? To have to pay for expenses their profession demands (travelling)?
It doesn't matter whether or not you like the Player, it doesn't matter whether or not they were streaming (unless that was in the contract). Players sign contracts, teams have to pay - it's really that easy.
Such a shame to read this. Hopefully it can be solved soon, and a pity you had to do this publicly to have a shot at getting your money back.
About his results, as others pointed out: it’s not relevant except if there were minimum results or something in the contract ; it doesn’t help you perform well when what should be a formality (having flights booked by the org, in time etc.) becomes pressure and stress as you have to book things yourself at the last minute because your team gave you the silent treatment. No wonder Nerchio didn’t perform as well as in the past if he was dealing with shit like this.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair.
Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side.
On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote: To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it.
Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
Yeah I think that’s fair, while I would tend to believe a community stalwarts like Nerchio (and I do here), we still have to consider the possibility that he’s not being truthful as you say and what the ramifications would be for an individual wielding their clout in a community with ill intent.
Alternatively Nerchio could be completely telling the truth, but there is some genuine mitigating circumstance at Mker’s end as well, which if the case their lack of response thus far would be pretty mystifying to me.
To clarify I’ve been pretty forceful in this thread, but mostly about what I think should be done for any hypothetical team who doesn’t honour contracts and whatnot, not judging Mkers in this specific example as guilty and sharpening the pitchfork.
That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
On December 08 2019 23:25 BisuDagger wrote: That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
Man the quality of political representatives in Bisutopia seems even worse than elsewhere in the world.
Good you were able to extricate yourself and land on your feet, can be a really tough move to make especially in certain industries where there’s almost an expectation of cutting your teeth unpaid to get on the ladder.
On December 08 2019 23:25 BisuDagger wrote: That sucks Nerchio. Unfortunately, this expands into the software field too. I was invited to work on a product by a political representative where I live. I assumed his reputation meant joining this startup would at least mean I'd get paid. I worked two months developing the software as the sole programmer and received no pay. This was a huge amount of money lost and I was never able to get it from him or the company. It was really difficult for my family, but fortunately I quit and got a new job within the same week. I really hope for the best in your situation, but for everyone out there: If you aren't being paid, even for a day, STOP working.
Couldn't agree more. It's frankly insane how many businesses and institutions that expect people to work for them for free. While they are making money. And of course people often feel like they can't say no because without having that on their CV they think they can never get paid work.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
The only thing he can show you is communication but he probably expects some good will from Mkers, so he doesn't post it yet.
This is what I said would be reasonably expected. Again, I think he is being truthful, but you simply cannot post something like this and use community leverage to your advantage without posting some form of evidence, it's rather unfair.
Just imagine if, for whatever reason, Nercho was not being fully truthful here. That's the sort of thing you should think about before you take any side.
On December 08 2019 16:39 mythikdawn wrote: To all the people asking Nerchio to provide proof, why would he even make a post like this if he was bullshitting? In eSports and especially in SC2, it seems like you'd always want to be on your team's good side, and doing something like this would ruin him if it didn't have some truth to it.
Because it has happened in other communities before, and it's an organization that has sponsorship, players, and staff at risk. If you're willing to put those things on blast, and at risk of being dissolved, the least you could do is put a chat log where you don't get any response from said manager. Just to be clear, TL is a tight nit community - so I think we can all take Nerchio as being truthful here. That said, it does not absolve him of providing any evidence as he is attempting to use the community to pressure Mkers - or to damage their org given their current standstill over his contract/payments.
He can't show the private communication either. Just FYI. There's a reason the communication is private
On December 08 2019 01:17 Wombat_NI wrote: It’s not like Nerchio is some naive kid here either who didn’t sign formal contracts or whatever. Although naive kids also shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
If Nerchio’s version of events is at all accurate, Mkers players should be barred from WCS competition until he gets his money.
This is literally the dumbest possible solution and you should be ashamed to suggest it. You want to punish players for something they had no involvement in?
What do you propose?
Pay your players or you don’t get to use a platform like WCS to expose your brand until you settle your debts.
It’s how plenty of ‘real’ sports operate, never mind wider business in general.
I’d be fine with Mkers players participating in these tournaments but absolutely not under the Mkers brand unless this is resolved:
What's there to propose? This is a contract dispute between 2 private parties.
What the players should do is form an esports union to which players pay dues so that players have someone with legal knowledge and financial power on their side when they have financial disputes with teams or what not. It could extend beyond Starcraft 2 into any and every esport.
How do you have a union in a multinational industry that crosses many different borders and different legal and employment codes?
As someone who is a strong advocate of unionisation I don’t see how this is workable at all
Unions operate in the U.S. and have to deal with 50 different sets of state labor laws along with the federal ones. It would difficult but not impossible. The logical thing to do would be to start in South Korea and the United States then start expanding country by country as it makes sense.
On December 08 2019 15:34 -Kyo- wrote: 17 hours this post has been up and Nerchio hasn't provided any proof. Imo for a thread that could damage a team's reputation there needs to be some collaboration here. Either directly to the admins, or some other pro player providing proof. A person's word is one thing, but facts and evidence are indisputable.
i think you might mean corroboration rather than collaboration ?
I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote: I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
On December 09 2019 04:31 Steelghost1 wrote: Why arent payments by tournament organizers given directly to players?
The UFC avoided all kinds of shenanigans that happens with many Boxing Orgs by always giving the cheque//check made payable to the fighter and handed in person to the fighter.
If the fighter wanted to pay any kinds of management personnel or other helpers he or she could do that with the money they got from the UFC.
On December 09 2019 04:31 Steelghost1 wrote: Why arent payments by tournament organizers given directly to players?
The UFC avoided all kinds of shenanigans that happens with many Boxing Orgs by always giving the cheque//check made payable to the fighter and handed in person to the fighter.
If the fighter wanted to pay any kinds of management personnel or other helpers he or she could do that with the money they got from the UFC.
That seems like a very reasonable way to go about it. Reduce bureaucracy, increase direct control for players.
Interesting that Mkers is still not responding to this officially.
I think that an international Players Union for eSports is really needed. Membership shouldnt be too expensive. On top they should take a certain percentge from prize money.
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote: I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
Being in the right would mean MKers would have to pay for the fees, question is if they have the money to pay the fees. Well, that's my naive view and a thing I would be expecting to be covered by the EU law.
Edit> But I understand that the initial costs are probably so much that even MKers paying for it later would be way too much for Nerchio and going to the court just out of a principle isn't probably what he's used to do(and if he doesn't have the money he can't anyway )
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote: I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
Being in the right would mean MKers would have to pay for the fees, question is if they have the money to pay the fees. Well, that's my naive view and a thing I would be expecting to be covered by the EU law.
Edit> But I understand that the initial costs are probably so much that even MKers paying for it later would be way too much for Nerchio and going to the court just out of a principle isn't probably what he's used to do(and if he doesn't have the money he can't anyway )
Basically what your edit says aye.
Since cuts to legal aid in the UK there’s been a decline in fathers challenging custody arrangements, plus settling in employment disputes rather than sticking with a legal course of action etc.
Either a player’s union or my preferred solution in this case, Blizzard regulating and arbitrating disputes with teams who play in their competitions would mitigate these issues considerably.
I’ve heard rumblings of the need for a player’s union for a very, very long time and it’s featured on many a StarCraft talk show and pushed by notable figures in the scene. Unfortunately it’s still not happened and I have to wonder why that is.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote: I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
Being in the right would mean MKers would have to pay for the fees, question is if they have the money to pay the fees. Well, that's my naive view and a thing I would be expecting to be covered by the EU law.
Edit> But I understand that the initial costs are probably so much that even MKers paying for it later would be way too much for Nerchio and going to the court just out of a principle isn't probably what he's used to do(and if he doesn't have the money he can't anyway )
Basically what your edit says aye.
Since cuts to legal aid in the UK there’s been a decline in fathers challenging custody arrangements, plus settling in employment disputes rather than sticking with a legal course of action etc.
Either a player’s union or my preferred solution in this case, Blizzard regulating and arbitrating disputes with teams who play in their competitions would mitigate these issues considerably.
I’ve heard rumblings of the need for a player’s union for a very, very long time and it’s featured on many a StarCraft talk show and pushed by notable figures in the scene. Unfortunately it’s still not happened and I have to wonder why that is.
Who pays for a players union? If it is funded by the players themselves, then since these sort of things happen with such regularity, with such low player salaries, those players will become bankrupt themselves as the financial base for a union simply doesn't exist, unlike say a normal union which not only have a large finincail base, but is likely backed by a single country legal framework. Unlike the normal concepts of insurance, those who are regularily paid have no incentive to pay into a fund, and those who aren't paid have no money to pay into. Those "notable figures" never take the first step of creating a collective fund they pay into themselves. Easy to talk, harder to organise.
On December 09 2019 03:54 deacon.frost wrote: I'm more surprised this isn't covered by some random nonsense from the EU, as it is trying to cover almost everything I would have expect them to cover international working agreements.
I’d imagine it is covered by something, but being in the right and it being worth your while to pursue it and employ legal expertise aren’t always going to be in alignment.
Being in the right would mean MKers would have to pay for the fees, question is if they have the money to pay the fees. Well, that's my naive view and a thing I would be expecting to be covered by the EU law.
Edit> But I understand that the initial costs are probably so much that even MKers paying for it later would be way too much for Nerchio and going to the court just out of a principle isn't probably what he's used to do(and if he doesn't have the money he can't anyway )
Basically what your edit says aye.
Since cuts to legal aid in the UK there’s been a decline in fathers challenging custody arrangements, plus settling in employment disputes rather than sticking with a legal course of action etc.
Either a player’s union or my preferred solution in this case, Blizzard regulating and arbitrating disputes with teams who play in their competitions would mitigate these issues considerably.
I’ve heard rumblings of the need for a player’s union for a very, very long time and it’s featured on many a StarCraft talk show and pushed by notable figures in the scene. Unfortunately it’s still not happened and I have to wonder why that is.
Who pays for a players union? If it is funded by the players themselves, then since these sort of things happen with such regularity, with such low player salaries, those players will become bankrupt themselves as the financial base for a union simply doesn't exist, unlike say a normal union which not only have a large finincail base, but is likely backed by a single country legal framework. Unlike the normal concepts of insurance, those who are regularily paid have no incentive to pay into a fund, and those who aren't paid have no money to pay into. Those "notable figures" never take the first step of creating a collective fund they pay into themselves. Easy to talk, harder to organise.
Indeed, basically all of that is either expansion of my inner thoughts on the matter, or stuff I’ve already stated in the thread.
100% agreed, such a union would be nice to have but it doesn’t materialise from thin air. It’s not an industry whose workers by and large make their income from salaries, so getting dues is that much more complicated.
It also requires solidarity amongst such folks, and I don’t think that exists amongst progamers on a global basis.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
What the hell is that.... It read like a twitch chat copy pasta.
Anyway I guess if we gave them the benefit of the doubt it may just be a issue of miss communication/lack of clear procedure. But still that pr guy, what happen to "we ackowledge Nerchio tweet and are looking into it with our legal team to shade light into the situation"
i was waiting for Mkers response before commenting on the subject and finally it's out. unfortunetly they failed to adress almost all of the claims made by nerchio. all they did was to imply that they did not receive the proper receipts, and complain about nerchio going public. at the very least, not claiming they are innocent of any contract breaches raise some suspicion. also, the fact that Mkers didn't deny nerchio's claim about their lack of communication with him shows he was right to go public.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Someone translate it to me please. Oh, someone did on twitter:
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Someone translate it to me please. Oh, someone did on twitter:
Awesome.
Courage mister Nerchio, Mkers' answer couldn't have been more dubious...
dear lord, that's terrible response no matter how you look at it. they didn't clarify ANY of the issues Nerchio pointed out they vaguely tried to shift blame on players and how the pro scene is bad(you bad players, complaining about not being paid - HOW DARE YOU) they spewed some PR/legal nonsense that in fact says absolutely nothing
if there were any doubts about Nerchio's claims being true those doubts are now gone
What a disgusting response from Mkers. After reading this I can’t help the impression that they have no respect whatsoever for the players and the scene. If it was a company I worked for as a professional, a red light would be flashing hard right now.
That was a super patronizing tweet. The best thing to say is (if anything at all) "While we disagree with how Arthur has chosen to bring this to the public, we are doing our best to resolve this." Instead they just attack Nerchio's behavior instead of understanding that the circumstances and tensions between them and him have led to this, and that they need to work harder to make sure players they sponsor don't feel pressured into making statements like this. I also thought the mentioning of lawyers sounded kind of threatening which makes me also feel bad for Nerchio. I understand both sides have their issues with what has happened, but as the individual it's hard not to feel outnumbered when trying to fight for what you believe is right.
Yeah what the hell kind of response is that? They're talking about professional behavior while defaulting on 2 months worth of payments, and from what we can see, ceasing communication with the guy that they owe money to?
On December 10 2019 03:31 Wombat_NI wrote: I’m not sure I could have penned a worse response if that had been my express aim, what were they thinking with that?
I guess the whole shop is run by some immature kids that try too hard to look "professional". Can't really find a better explanation of this situation.
LOL. I hope I'm not the only one laughing at Mkers' response. They addressed nothing but instead of blah blah blah... Are they really dumb or they are running some even more elaborated scam?
I think I'm gonna tag their sponsors on that thread to see what they think. What a joke.
Goddamn I love seeing the whole sc2 community go in on them
An additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them.
Anybody know what Showtime have to say about it? Has he been w them long? Would be interesting to hear if they are only selectively shitty to their players - which would be even worse imo.
On December 10 2019 04:10 TentativePanda wrote: Goddamn I love seeing the whole sc2 community go in on them
An additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them.
Calm down there, Karl. While MKERS response was incredibly tone deaf and unprofessional, the team owners aren't sitting on yachts eating veal and caviar while simultaneously not paying taxes yet forcing their employees to receive government assistance to survive, and if they are, that's not because of Esports money. Esports teams are with few exceptions not profitable at all. Most of them burn their seed cash while paying player salaries divorced of reality. These companies are not charities. The owners took a gamble and lost. The biggest beneficiaries are the players and the game publishers.
MKERS acting like assholes publicly is a product of the fact that being a brand is one of the only ways to monetize the team and a player speaking out threatens that.
On December 07 2019 22:34 Drusas_ wrote: This was hard to read, sorry Nerchio.
It seems like the Wild West era of e-sports still lingers on.
The legal field is doing their best to try to correct these things right now. ESG law is the first primary dedicated law firm for esports that was founded a few years ago, and legal positions in the esports scene is growing. hopefully, within a few years the groundwork for everything will be set and things like this won't be able to happen anymore.
On December 07 2019 22:34 Drusas_ wrote: This was hard to read, sorry Nerchio.
It seems like the Wild West era of e-sports still lingers on.
The legal field is doing their best to try to correct these things right now. ESG law is the first primary dedicated law firm for esports that was founded a few years ago, and legal positions in the esports scene is growing. hopefully, within a few years the groundwork for everything will be set and things like this won't be able to happen anymore.
I feel like things like this happen generally because a team is facing financial difficulties, not malfeasance. In that situation, lawyers would just push teams into insolvency faster.
What a weird and unprofessional tone, Mkers makes itself look pretty bad. Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ?
On December 10 2019 04:10 TentativePanda wrote: Goddamn I love seeing the whole sc2 community go in on them
An additional something people should take from this is that companies/orgs taking advantage of workers regardless of what industry is a very real issue. They use internal pressure, financial pressure, legal pressure and other tactics to prevent the public from hearing about their wrongdoings. This is an esports team doing this. Now think about how much more pressure would be applied if it were a company like amazon, Facebook and the like. This isn’t the dark side of just esports, it’s the dark side of company power, and their ability to financially/legally pressure the public speech of those harmed by them.
Calm down there, Karl. While MKERS response was incredibly tone deaf and unprofessional, the team owners aren't sitting on yachts eating veal and caviar while simultaneously not paying taxes yet forcing their employees to receive government assistance to survive, and if they are, that's not because of Esports money. Esports teams are with few exceptions not profitable at all. Most of them burn their seed cash while paying player salaries divorced of reality. These companies are not charities. The owners took a gamble and lost. The biggest beneficiaries are the players and the game publishers.
MKERS acting like assholes publicly is a product of the fact that being a brand is one of the only ways to monetize the team and a player speaking out threatens that.
If you reread what I posted you’d realize your response to it makes no sense. I was literally emphasizing that this is the behavior of an esports org to point out companies/orgs/whatever with waaay more financial and legal power get away with much worse. Generally, I have a ton of respect for esports orgs for the reasons you pointed out - they are not intended to make a ton of money, instead being pivotal in the development of the esports scene.
Your second paragraph confuses me more, somehow. Are you saying players shouldnt speak out against the negation of contract agreements because it would threaten the team/org?
On December 10 2019 05:24 stilt wrote: Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ?
Yeah. I mean, they don't come right out and say it, but if they had payed him they probably would have said "we payed him" instead of "we acknowledge his statements and also fuck him for telling on us."
I'd say it's pretty fair to read "we totally didn't pay him" in between those lines.
On December 10 2019 05:24 stilt wrote: Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ?
Yeah. I mean, they don't come right out and say it, but if they had payed him they probably would have said "we payed him" instead of "we acknowledge his statements and also fuck him for telling on us."
I'd say it's pretty fair to read "we totally didn't pay him" in between those lines.
I read it essentialy as "he didn't send us his invoice so maybe he wasn't payed when he needed too we need to check" I mean, in fairness to them, that could be true (well probably not since Nerchio complained) but at least it could just be an accounting or communication problems.
But then there's the second part of the statement that essentially can be read as:
On December 07 2019 22:34 Drusas_ wrote: This was hard to read, sorry Nerchio.
It seems like the Wild West era of e-sports still lingers on.
The legal field is doing their best to try to correct these things right now. ESG law is the first primary dedicated law firm for esports that was founded a few years ago, and legal positions in the esports scene is growing. hopefully, within a few years the groundwork for everything will be set and things like this won't be able to happen anymore.
I feel like things like this happen generally because a team is facing financial difficulties, not malfeasance. In that situation, lawyers would just push teams into insolvency faster.
eSports is full of both enthusiastic hobbyists whose business acumen doesn’t match their passion, and said types of people inhabit both the playerbase, tournament organisation and casting spheres of eSports.
For those with a sufficient lack of scruples it’s a space ripe for exploiting people too.
In cases of both malfeasance or incompetence having some potential barriers be they unions, regulatory orgs or dedicated legal services can’t be a bad thing IMO
The idea that people should allow themselves to get fucked over because publicly complaining is "unprofessional" exists only because it serves well to those in position of power. Anyone who tries to solve problems by silencing the other side deserves no respect. MKers have basically shown themselves out of any business in esports here I am afraid.
Good job Mkers, you've officially shot yourself in the foot with a tactical nuke.
Why couldn't you have just said "While we disagree with how Nerchio has brought up this issue, we take all issues regarding the payment to employees very, very seriously and are looking into this issue."
On December 10 2019 05:24 stilt wrote: Btw my english is pretty bad but between the lines, they admit they didn't pay him right ?
Yeah. I mean, they don't come right out and say it, but if they had payed him they probably would have said "we payed him" instead of "we acknowledge his statements and also fuck him for telling on us."
I'd say it's pretty fair to read "we totally didn't pay him" in between those lines.
I read it essentialy as "he didn't send us his invoice so maybe he wasn't payed when he needed too we need to check" I mean, in fairness to them, that could be true (well probably not since Nerchio complained) but at least it could just be an accounting or communication problems.
But then there's the second part of the statement that essentially can be read as:
"Fuck you"
My issue with that is if the issue was literally just needing a receipt, then why did this get so convoluted? I imagine that conversation would go something like this
Nerchio "Hey, I didn't get paid or reimbursed for X, Y and Z events"
MKers "Oh, sorry about that! We need receipts to reimburse you for travel and logging expenses, just keep in mind if you chose to stay at a 5* resort and order a bottle of 18yr Glennfiddich, those kind of costs are things Mkers can't reimburse you for. I'll immediately look into your missing pay. You should hear back from me within 2 business days regarding the last bit."
To make something very clear: I'm not taking the team's site here. The statement is beyond horrible and insulting and should have never been written that way. Also, I'm totally on board to - in doubt . rather believe the player over the team....
... but according to the statement (next to all the bullshit in there) they kinda say that Nerchio has never been able to bring forward the proofs of what had been missing. If that's the case (and again: i don't think it is, but the possibility can't be ruled out completely), that's a reasonable point and a huge problem on Nerchio's side,
On December 10 2019 06:59 Kriasrub wrote: To make something very clear: I'm not taking the team's site here. The statement is beyond horrible and insulting and should have never been written that way. Also, I'm totally on board to - in doubt . rather believe the player over the team....
... but according to the statement (next to all the bullshit in there) they kinda say that Nerchio has never been able to bring forward the proofs of what had been missing. If that's the case (and again: i don't think it is, but the possibility can't be ruled out completely), that's a reasonable point and a huge problem on Nerchio's side,
They dont say that tho, do they? They insinuate there could have been problems of this kind in the past, either with Nerchio or in general with other players, and that s it.
And since Nerchio specifically complained about how he couldnt reserve hotel rooms and flights in time (to save money) because of Mkers were unresponsive, i highly, highly doubt it's a problem of missing receipts.
On December 07 2019 22:18 Nerchio wrote: Before signing with Mkers we agreed that all main Starcraft 2 events travel and accommodation will be paid by the team (if agreed beforehand) and everything went smooth in those regards only for the first event under the contract – IEM Katowice 2019. After that I tried to contact the organization to prepare the accommodation and travel for WCS Spring ahead of time so we would get cheaper flights as well as hotel. Very often time is of the essence in this matter because hotels close to the tournament venue are usually booked really fast or prices skyrocket and you unnecessarily have to overpay. But it might be just matter of convenience. For WCS Summer and WCS Spring tournament organizer required players to confirm their participation by sending your flight tickets and hotel booking around 1 week before the tournament started.
The biggest problem is that Mkers organization never responded to me before WCS Spring and I was finally forced to book everything myself at the last moment before the tournament (less than 1 week) or I would be risking withdrawal from the tournament.
Plus salaries are not invoiced, if you're employed by an organization/ company. You get paid based on ur contract.
He was on a few teams before Mkers, he's been around forever, been a pro since the WoL days, it's just so unlikely he maneuvered all these things well up until now, and he suddenly forgot how reimbursements and contracts work, and caused tones of undue headaches for the org.
Not impossible, but you know, simplest explanation is often the right one. Mkers is just a shitty team. I cheked their wiki page now, they have incredible fluctuation, several players are joining and leaving in a year, some left within a week of signing.
Lmao, would love to be in the head of the person writing this.
"Hell yes this sounds awesome, that will teach this nerchio guy !"
Mornings after...
"...shit?"
Poor showtime must not be enjoying this. Mkers pretty much just commited PR suicide. Sponsors will withdraw for sure, bankrupcy inc, this team is done lol.
Really hope the big boss of MKers is in charge of twitter, else they will be so pissed at the person in charge of twitter. They just ruined their company. Who will wanna do business with them after this?
On December 10 2019 07:09 Snakestyle11 wrote: Lmao, would love to be in the head of the person writing this.
"Hell yes this sounds awesome, that will teach this nerchio guy !"
Mornings after...
"...shit?"
Poor showtime must not be enjoying this. Mkers pretty much just commited PR suicide. Sponsors will withdraw for sure, bankrupcy inc, this team is done lol.
Really hope the big boss of MKers is in charge of twitter, else they will be so pissed at the person in charge of twitter. They just ruined their company. Who will wanna do business with them after this?
Not sure about that. Depends on how important SC2 is for them, probably not very. Depends how strong they are, can some bad PR do that much dmg, if they otherwise stand on strong legs, then most likely no. I mean the worst PR suicide i've seen in the online/ gaming world was Roll20 (online tabletop kinda thing), and they're still around. They wrote history, 2nd most down-voted post in reddit history etc.
And i agree this is bad, but that was way way way worse, and yet, they didnt go bankrupt
On December 10 2019 07:09 Snakestyle11 wrote: Lmao, would love to be in the head of the person writing this.
"Hell yes this sounds awesome, that will teach this nerchio guy !"
Mornings after...
"...shit?"
Poor showtime must not be enjoying this. Mkers pretty much just commited PR suicide. Sponsors will withdraw for sure, bankrupcy inc, this team is done lol.
Really hope the big boss of MKers is in charge of twitter, else they will be so pissed at the person in charge of twitter. They just ruined their company. Who will wanna do business with them after this?
Not sure about that. Depends on how important SC2 is for them, probably not very. Depends how strong they are, can some bad PR do that much dmg, if they otherwise stand on strong legs, then most likely no. I mean the worst PR suicide i've seen in the online/ gaming world was Roll20 (online tabletop kinda thing), and they're still around. They wrote history, 2nd most down-voted post in reddit history etc.
And i agree this is bad, but that was way way way worse, and yet, they didnt go bankrupt
Yea I exaggerated for sure.. I just feel like this was so stupid...childish...
My devil's advocate question: If the agreement was they would pay for all expenses as long as they were agreed upon prior to the tournament and Nerchio then goes, "well I want to play in this so I am just going to pay now and make them pay for it after I am done", doesn't that give them the legal right to do nothing. If they didn't agree to pay it, then there's nothing binding here. It is then a case of really shitty sponsors that don't have their act together enough to send players to important tournaments. As soon as they didn't pay for even a single tournament or agree ahead of time, then Nerchio needed to say the he was forced to find new sponsors. Unfortunately, he is a nice guy and got taken advantage of.
On December 10 2019 08:37 BisuDagger wrote: My devil's advocate question: If the agreement was they would pay for all expenses as long as they were agreed upon prior to the tournament and Nerchio then goes, "well I want to play in this so I am just going to pay now and make them pay for it after I am done", doesn't that give them the legal right to do nothing. If they didn't agree to pay it, then there's nothing binding here. It is then a case of really shitty sponsors that don't have their act together enough to send players to important tournaments. As soon as they didn't pay for even a single tournament or agree ahead of time, then Nerchio needed to say the he was forced to find new sponsors. Unfortunately, he is a nice guy and got taken advantage of.
If.
I’m not really any kind of expert in expenses-related work personally but from friends in industries where that’s how they work it usually goes.
‘I’m going to cover this story, will you cover my expenses?’ in the case of a journalist who brings the project up with whoever’s paying them, and in the opposite direction where the ‘creative’ is approached by someone for work ‘We want you to photograph this gig for us’ and then you settle on what your expenses are and work out something mutually reasonable.
But yes there is a difference in interpretation depending on what the contracts stipulated and how things went down.
At this point, given Nerchio’s good standing, plus no reports of his having problems with previous points, and Mkers hamfisted response I’m struggling to even play devil’s advocate.
However, if they had a contractual agreement that basically constituted Nerchio having to do things in a certain fashion, then maybe legally they have a case.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Dude, this is a super fucked up response. Veiled threats. Veiled accusations. Zero addressing the claims made against them. It's also a bit internally inconsistent. It's like, "Well, let's just say, in response to Nerchio, that some players are really unprofessional, don't give us invoices or recepits, may not have lived up to their contractual obligations, and may have damaged the company's image. But posting about that stuff publicly would be unprofessional. Wink, wink. Also, we never considered publicly spreading false information about players in order to meet the definition of defamation. Just FYI. It's unrelated; we just thought you should know."
Also, in a community like SC2, now a lot of the fanbase is going to know all about this shit and have a negative image of these guys--because of their own statements. They've just shot themselves in the foot. Don't complain about someone else messing with the company image if this is the image the company itself projects, it looks ridiculous.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Dude, this is a super fucked up response. Veiled threats. Veiled accusations. Zero addressing the claims made against them. It's also a bit internally inconsistent. It's like, "Well, let's just say, in response to Nerchio, that some players are really unprofessional, don't give us invoices or recepits, may not have lived up to their contractual obligations, and may have damaged the company's image. But posting about that stuff publicly would be unprofessional. Wink, wink. Also, we never considered publicly spreading false information about players in order to meet the definition of defamation. Just FYI. It's unrelated; we just thought you should know."
Also, in a community like SC2, now a lot of the fanbase is going to know all about this shit and have a negative image of these guys--because of their own statements. They've just shot themselves in the foot. Don't complain about someone else messing with the company image if this is the image the company itself projects, it looks ridiculous.
Honestly how hard can it be to grab some standardized PR template and put in people's names?
"The MKERS company acknowledges that Mr. Artur Bloch has raised concerns regarding his previous term of employment and is actively working to resolve any outstanding obligations that may exist. We regret any misunderstandings that may have arisen as a result of certain aspects of international contractual agreements. The company is commited to upholding the highest standards of professional esports."
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Come on Mkers, even my 10 years old cousin could make a response that is more on point and easy to understand, this is just a piece of shit
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Damn, not even a "I'm sorry we got caught, we'll pay him eventually!" PR response. Just a straight up victim blaming. How dare Nerchio speak up for not getting paid? How unprofessional.
all they had to do was post something along the lines of "we are looking into this and the exact nature of the dispute. Please be aware that these things take time and have some patience while we go through our processes to resolve the situation." No reason to attack the fanbase who are presumably their market considering they are an esports team.
Like whats their business plan and how does alienating the brand accomplish any of that. also they say fans should encourage players to go through legal channels. well
" Mkers has ceased all communications with me and it shows that they want to keep my money in their own pocket."
sounds like Nerchio already tried that? so the next legal option then would be court which the community is encouraging which is what the company recommends basically. this is the most nonsensical thing I've ever read.
also regardless of what the Company did it sounds like they basically ghosted Nerchio and ignored him. Not sure how that works in other countries but pretty sure in the U.S lack of contact or response doesn't get you out of contractual obligations (at least you can Evict someone even if they refuse to take their eviction notice for example). Maybe he misunderstood the contract in which case they possibly lied or misled him about what they'd cover.
- Mkers organization still owes me salary for 2 months as well as reimbursement for 2 WCS tournaments in Kiev (WCS Spring and WCS Summer).
If thats what the contrat says then this is what the contract says. They just need to pay.
Mkers has ceased all communications with me
This needs to be addressed first. Why arent they responding? I read their statement and just thought . . .theyve tried here, Why not just contact nerchio? Sort it! Its really their issue now. Nerchio is just a player, im assuming they came to him? All the player has to do is fulfil their end of the bargain, which is play. Im sure there would have been no issue if he won.
The whole communication from the upper management was run through managers who couldn’t really get in touch with the organization itself very often and all my official emails to Mkers were never really responded to. - What is the nature of the never REALLY responded to? My salaries for last 2 months playing for Mkers were never paid. As of today I am still fighting to get my money back but of course Mkers is hiding behind the cost of legal dispute over contract between entities from different countries.
The MKERS company has acknowledged the public statements released last week by Mr. Arthur Bloch and has instructed its lawyers to clarify what happened by verifying any contractual shortfalls or damage to the image of the company itself or its sponsors.
Unfortunately, once again we notice the lack of professionalism from the esport sector. We remind everyone that in the case of receivables due, the correct procedure is not the public defamation of the debtor but the regular performance of the credit recovery procedures.
We hope to start to building a more professional relationship, where chats and communities are used solely to entertain and help the young pro players improve not only their gaming skills, but also and especially, the correct handling of employment legal issues that concern them.
Organizations such as Mkers are investing heavily in growing in this sector and it is no longer acceptable to deal with those who expect payments without issuing receipts / invoices, or aren’t even able to issue them or, even worse, with those who threaten to publish their dissent on the company’s social networks.
During the past three years, we, as well as others, have experienced all kinds of situations, like people not settling their share of a prize pool or not paying our credits promptly. We have never considered defaming them on social media, it wouldn't have been professional. While we wait for better regulations, we think it is important to start behaving accordingly.
Dude, this is a super fucked up response. Veiled threats. Veiled accusations. Zero addressing the claims made against them. It's also a bit internally inconsistent. It's like, "Well, let's just say, in response to Nerchio, that some players are really unprofessional, don't give us invoices or recepits, may not have lived up to their contractual obligations, and may have damaged the company's image. But posting about that stuff publicly would be unprofessional. Wink, wink. Also, we never considered publicly spreading false information about players in order to meet the definition of defamation. Just FYI. It's unrelated; we just thought you should know."
Also, in a community like SC2, now a lot of the fanbase is going to know all about this shit and have a negative image of these guys--because of their own statements. They've just shot themselves in the foot. Don't complain about someone else messing with the company image if this is the image the company itself projects, it looks ridiculous.
Honestly how hard can it be to grab some standardized PR template and put in people's names?
"The MKERS company acknowledges that Mr. Artur Bloch has raised concerns regarding his previous term of employment and is actively working to resolve any outstanding obligations that may exist. We regret any misunderstandings that may have arisen as a result of certain aspects of international contractual agreements. The company is commited to upholding the highest standards of professional esports."
There you go. Took all of five minutes.
Requires that they are actually able to spell the man's name.
Very sorry to hear this Nerchio. It is quite frankly outrageous to treat employees this way and is of course very bad for the health and development of the Starcraft pro scene to have these things.
Really hope Mkers get their shit together and own up to the agreements.
You are the person who give a great answer to this situation.
I m realy curious what soul and Showtime are doing now.. There s been nothing on thier twitter -for now. I hope they re going to leave Mkers ASAP... I gues for the semi pros it s fine to stay for now, as long as you re not going to offline events at least.
Sometimes what seemed as a bargaining technique / bluff comes back to bite you hard! .. and? You really think a few dozen people noticing is going to change things?
i mean yeah we will get increasingly more shaming in public .. yeah cool like we love that right? .. being a company just requires a checkbook .. so it will happen , but i'm for one am not glad of it.
As for the "interesting yet completely abstract"union discussion.. ?
i submit that gamers that have won zillion of esports dollars should be funding one, but they don't care .. why not ? because you know? #1 takes care of #1 .. and no one else!
Gamers forget every thing the past gamers they were thought and felt the second they become big.. Us old gamers have completely failed to inspire anyone in to anything remotely good .. esports will never be clean because it is not considered any differently than any other product like selling toothpaste (whereas we all know or at least hope that is not or should not be the case!),
.. it will always be met with utter contempt by the people in charge (game devs / authorities /people not passionate in particular). Furthermore the system HOLDS on the fact that gamers play along .. yes indeed lets have MORE public SHAMING : no gamer on that team is speaking out.. no one in charge of the games legally is speaking out, nowhere... .. by fear of getting involved..? .. funny fact is they ARE involved .. just are choosing to not say anything .. and lets face it not saying anything is bad and upholds the whole system, no?
Adding more lawyers judges unions will not change anything.
What does change things is people acting upon their beliefs .. not discussing them.
Have you changed anything since "free donky kong" in your attitudes towards companies?
i submit that gamers that have won zillion of esports dollars should be funding one, but they don't care .. why not ? because you know? #1 takes care of #1 .. and no one else!
Gamers forget every thing the past gamers they were thought and felt the second they become big.. Us old gamers have completely failed to inspire anyone in to anything remotely good .. esports will never be clean because it is not considered any differently than any other product like selling toothpaste (whereas we all know or at least hope that is not or should not be the case!),
CSGO has a player's union that actually gets stuff done and those pros actually win zillions of esports dollars. SC2 is just a much smaller esport with a significantly smaller number of pros. A union would be great if it wasn't just more likely that companies would drop SC2 if they tried to argue for too much.
i submit that gamers that have won zillion of esports dollars should be funding one, but they don't care .. why not ? because you know? #1 takes care of #1 .. and no one else!
Gamers forget every thing the past gamers they were thought and felt the second they become big.. Us old gamers have completely failed to inspire anyone in to anything remotely good .. esports will never be clean because it is not considered any differently than any other product like selling toothpaste (whereas we all know or at least hope that is not or should not be the case!),
CSGO has a player's union that actually gets stuff done and those pros actually win zillions of esports dollars. SC2 is just a much smaller esport with a significantly smaller number of pros. A union would be great if it wasn't just more likely that companies would drop SC2 if they tried to argue for too much.
I see no need for a seperate union per game, if there allready is an union, why can t SC2 just players join?
i submit that gamers that have won zillion of esports dollars should be funding one, but they don't care .. why not ? because you know? #1 takes care of #1 .. and no one else!
Gamers forget every thing the past gamers they were thought and felt the second they become big.. Us old gamers have completely failed to inspire anyone in to anything remotely good .. esports will never be clean because it is not considered any differently than any other product like selling toothpaste (whereas we all know or at least hope that is not or should not be the case!),
CSGO has a player's union that actually gets stuff done and those pros actually win zillions of esports dollars. SC2 is just a much smaller esport with a significantly smaller number of pros. A union would be great if it wasn't just more likely that companies would drop SC2 if they tried to argue for too much.
I see no need for a seperate union per game, if there allready is an union, why can t SC2 just players join?
There would probably need someone to be the visible leader for the SC2 players and probably nobody wants the responsability and work it requires.
Meanwhile, Mkers tweet about Fifa and not much is said about this situation after their last tweet. I guess one thing that could be done is to message their sponsors and hopefully this makes Mkers pay Nerchio.
Wasn’t Classic part of Mkers? Is it safe to assume he left because he wasn’t being paid either? I didn’t follow the story when he left. Showtime is probably in the same boat too sadly...
I'm pretty sure that every SC2 player in the team will leave as fast as their contract allows and least some of them will not be payed fully, if the team doesn't make some big moves. Unfortunately seems like this did not get really out of SC2 scene and players of other games may not be aware of the issues and will not avoid this team.
On December 12 2019 00:55 ShoCkeyy wrote: Wasn’t Classic part of Mkers? Is it safe to assume he left because he wasn’t being paid either? I didn’t follow the story when he left. Showtime is probably in the same boat too sadly...
Classic left the team because he retired to join the military.
Wouldn't that have made him the guy who was suppose to make sure they get payed? Not to be to much of asshole to the guy, but it's a bit sad that he waited that long to tell us if he was aware of the situation.
Wouldn't that have made him the guy who was suppose to make sure they get payed? Not to be to much of asshole to the guy, but it's a bit sad that he waited that long to tell us if he was aware of the situation.
My thoughts exactly! He seems part of the problem and not the solution
Wouldn't that have made him the guy who was suppose to make sure they get payed? Not to be to much of asshole to the guy, but it's a bit sad that he waited that long to tell us if he was aware of the situation.
Depends. Manager doesnt necessarily mean a lot of power. Dont know any of the details, but many managerial positions have close to 0 say in finance and payments. "Manager" usually means u're responsible for the schedule of these 2-10 ppl.
Wouldn't that have made him the guy who was suppose to make sure they get payed? Not to be to much of asshole to the guy, but it's a bit sad that he waited that long to tell us if he was aware of the situation.
Depends. Manager doesnt necessarily mean a lot of power. Dont know any of the details, but many managerial positions have close to 0 say in finance and payments. "Manager" usually means u're responsible for the schedule of these 2-10 ppl.
I would agree with this in the sense that "Manager" probably isnt the guy signing the checks, rather coordinating who goes where, checking that they have the equipment they need, etc.
If hes the "manager" as defined as I understand it, hes probably not at fault here
The response from MKer is pretty poor. However I think people are missing the subtly of their post. They're basically saying he wasn't an employee but rather a service provider.
I don't know the laws that apply in countries in question, but where I'm from the two are quite different. Without actually seeing a copy of the contract it's hard to say who's legally at fault.
Judging by MKers response, I would guess that the situation would never be resolved. Pending assumes there is a process. There is no process. They would simply not give Nerchio the money he is owed.
On December 10 2019 20:37 fluidrone wrote: What does change things is people acting upon their beliefs .. not discussing them.
the most notorious walking blathering word salad on TL lecturing people on the ineffectiveness of discussing things
i think face to face , in-person discussion can help resolve an issue/conflict that can't be resolved via online written communication.
yes he's definitely projecting.. that was the word thank you.. .. but i think that beyond the projecting there is a transfer.. a transfer from his hate of Mkers or whatever the name is, and how he hates me apparently.. for being? i mean did you see how he slashed my nonexistent street cred in one post wow.. someone should report it so he gets "warned" .. i mean that red text would add so much edginess (<< joke, in case you didn't "get" it)
come to think of it, i suppose he's right .. i must be
the most notorious walking blathering word salad on TL
since he was not warned already for baiting an old sod like myself into ripping him a new one .. with words?
mm? something to think about? no.. no time for that sorry!
also could you point out how i was "lecturing people on the ineffectiveness of discussing things" .. i'm slow and old and i don't see it.. and no i am not being facetious... i am discussing things, i am not however an apathetic nerd that "only" discusses what he wants.. i follow thoroughly through my ACTIONS, thank you.
On December 13 2019 22:49 alpenrahm wrote: in a way that is a conclusion aswell. I am just wondering if it really is the final state of things.
Read MKer's statement. It's a declaration that they do not intend to pay Nerchio. Of course if you beleive that a state where he would be paid exists, then that final state would never be achieved and so it will never be the final state..
Unfortunately in a dwindling pro scene stuff like this will start occuring more often. When the market is good pay is good and everyone is giving you all the benefits in the world, but once cash starts drying up the opposite starts happening as they feel they can get away with it. Sad to see this happen to you and it is a good thing you came forward with this, if organizations don't own up to their obligations that they agreed/signed on to then their name should be dragged through the mud. Hopefully you can recoup something, but even if not its an important lesson learned.
On December 14 2019 04:11 GoSuNamhciR wrote: Unfortunately in a dwindling pro scene stuff like this will start occuring more often. When the market is good pay is good and everyone is giving you all the benefits in the world, but once cash starts drying up the opposite starts happening as they feel they can get away with it. Sad to see this happen to you and it is a good thing you came forward with this, if organizations don't own up to their obligations that they agreed/signed on to then their name should be dragged through the mud. Hopefully you can recoup something, but even if not its an important lesson learned.
I don't think Nerchio should leave it as it is. 2 months without pay or even 1 month is still crucial. People pay rent/morgage, credit, etc. You depend on regular income, so this behaviour isn't acceptable and something should be done.
Edit: I've messaged Mkers on Twitter to pay Nerchio. Let's all message them and maybe they'll get annoyed and finally pay him. Link: https://twitter.com/mkersofficial
On December 14 2019 21:29 Dave4 wrote: Any updates?
Nothing much except MKers tweeted some PR bs that said somehow it's nerchio's fault for going public with this issue and that they were trying to be "professional." I am not a lawyer, but I imagine only lawsuits are the kind of action that would move MKers; except even if nerchio has the legal high ground, suing is expensive and lengthy, ergo the position of the MKers.
I wonder if any law firm is willing to sue in nerchio's behalf; that'll be the only plausible way I think.
On December 14 2019 04:11 GoSuNamhciR wrote: Unfortunately in a dwindling pro scene stuff like this will start occuring more often. When the market is good pay is good and everyone is giving you all the benefits in the world, but once cash starts drying up the opposite starts happening as they feel they can get away with it. Sad to see this happen to you and it is a good thing you came forward with this, if organizations don't own up to their obligations that they agreed/signed on to then their name should be dragged through the mud. Hopefully you can recoup something, but even if not its an important lesson learned.
I don't think Nerchio should leave it as it is. 2 months without pay or even 1 month is still crucial. People pay rent/morgage, credit, etc. You depend on regular income, so this behaviour isn't acceptable and something should be done.
Edit: I've messaged Mkers on Twitter to pay Nerchio. Let's all message them and maybe they'll get annoyed and finally pay him. Link: https://twitter.com/mkersofficial
I am not defending Mkers at all, quite the opposite. I just see stuff like this happening in a scene where money becomes scarcer. Think back to the 2008 recession, I got shit on by some of the shadiest things by companies (not getting paid properly back then) and had very little recourse for it because they were using legal workarounds and nobody was hiring and everybody was laying off so I took what I got. Nowadays the job market is the opposite, if I want I can leave and go to 100 different companies and get competing offers... but I see the SC2 scene as dwindling personally, and if pros are desperate for money they will be jerked around. I hope I'm wrong and I hope he gets paid what he is owed.
My devil's advocate question: If the agreement was they would pay for all expenses as long as they were agreed upon prior to the tournament and Nerchio then goes, "well I want to play in this so I am just going to pay now and make them pay for it after I am done", doesn't that give them the legal right to do nothing. If they didn't agree to pay it, then there's nothing binding here. It is then a case of really shitty sponsors that don't have their act together enough to send players to important tournaments. As soon as they didn't pay for even a single tournament or agree ahead of time, then Nerchio needed to say the he was forced to find new sponsors. Unfortunately, he is a nice guy and got taken advantage of.
I’m not really any kind of expert in expenses-related work personally but from friends in industries where that’s how they work it usually goes.
‘I’m going to cover this story, will you cover my expenses?’ in the case of a journalist who brings the project up with whoever’s paying them, and in the opposite direction where the ‘creative’ is approached by someone for work ‘We want you to photograph this gig for us’ and then you settle on what your expenses are and work out something mutually reasonable.
But yes there is a difference in interpretation depending on what the contracts stipulated and how things went down.
At this point, given Nerchio’s good standing, plus no reports of his having problems with previous points, and Mkers hamfisted response I’m struggling to even play devil’s advocate.
However, if they had a contractual agreement that basically constituted Nerchio having to do things in a certain fashion, then maybe legally they have a case.
This makes the response by MKers more hilarious, as they actually call themselves the debtor in it, implying they do owe Nerchio (and adds no clarification to the situation, implying they would owe tournament expenses and the salary). But, I am not a lawyer.
It is very probable there is a poorly written contract, and expense based work I'm sure is ripe for misunderstanding. Nerchio's OP here basically says MKer would pay for tournaments if agreed upon beforehand, which leads to this bad situation where MKer decided to ghost and never respond so that there could never be an agreement. Either side can end up being unprofessional where every tournament has to be negotiated on/rely on good faith actors.
I'd hope for the players' sake that Nerchio's contract lists like "WCS premier events in Europe" or something with legal weight, otherwise Nerchio will have to go a long way to get anything beyond the salary. And these contracts or agreements I'm sure are very poorly written in general.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
EDIT: Just to give a personal example, back when I was in poverty I was working as a temp laborer at a warehouse. After 90 days they have to either raise your pay or hire you for the same amount with benefits. On the 89th day I was let go and told that it was because "you were doing something you shouldn't have been." I thought back to the times that I rode on the forkjack like a scooter or to get from A to B faster or when I climbed the scaffolding to get a box instead of waiting for the forklift, and said "OK, I understand."
Meanwhile, they old everyone else that I was stealing. Sure, they lied out their ass, but I wouldn't expect everyone there to take my word over theirs when it comes to why I got fired. Every single person in that factory, save for the one guy who had rich parents and drove up in a Porsche to sit in the office and do his mandatory work hours to continue receiving daddy's money, needed their pay. Expecting people to rise up and throw away their income is childish and simple-minded IMO, even if the employer they work for is bullshit and they spread bullshit - which, I have to remind you, we don't know the internal workings of. Not saying that Nerchio was "stealing" as per my story, not at all, since I know that I wasn't. But if everyone else in the company is still getting paid, I don't agree that they are complicit in the mistreatment of one worker that happened somewhere in the ether that they are not aware of or privy to.
Come on folks. The team that is stupid enough to post a meme response to a serious accusation will never honor their contracts or attempt to mend their mistakes. Nerchio basically has to fight in the court of law to get his money. Best of luck to him.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
Sadly I don't think Blizzard cares or even has the a real reason to care nowadays. Basically "ded game" meme but in real life.
This is bad for eSports honestly the fact that so many "organizations" do things like this is ridiculous, sorry you had to go through this, keep fighting bro
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
Sadly I don't think Blizzard cares or even has the a real reason to care nowadays. Basically "ded game" meme but in real life.
Even if it was a much bigger game, Blizz has no business weighing in on issues such as this. Similar problems have happened in the past, including in SC, and in other games, such as the undisputed nr 1 esport (money-wise) Dota2. I have to look up the story, but basically, Valve couldnt get involved, even though they always had a much much much more hands-on approach to esports than Blizz ever did.
On December 14 2019 08:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Have any other players from the team made any statements?
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
Sadly I don't think Blizzard cares or even has the a real reason to care nowadays. Basically "ded game" meme but in real life.
Even if it was a much bigger game, Blizz has no business weighing in on issues such as this. Similar problems have happened in the past, including in SC, and in other games, such as the undisputed nr 1 esport (money-wise) Dota2. I have to look up the story, but basically, Valve couldnt get involved, even though they always had a much much much more hands-on approach to esports than Blizz ever did.
How is it not their business?
In regular sports if a team is not paying staff, is insolvent or whatever then the league tends to sanction them.
By continuing to play for the team they're complicit in this kind of player abuse
Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
Sadly I don't think Blizzard cares or even has the a real reason to care nowadays. Basically "ded game" meme but in real life.
Even if it was a much bigger game, Blizz has no business weighing in on issues such as this. Similar problems have happened in the past, including in SC, and in other games, such as the undisputed nr 1 esport (money-wise) Dota2. I have to look up the story, but basically, Valve couldnt get involved, even though they always had a much much much more hands-on approach to esports than Blizz ever did.
How is it not their business?
In regular sports if a team is not paying staff, is insolvent or whatever then the league tends to sanction them.
Well, the comparison between traditional sports and esports really breaks down here.
There isnt a federation of SC2 like NBA or NFL or FIFA where you have to be a member to compete, and u agree to play by their rules
Legally speaking, Blizz has 0 business in sanctioning or even calling out Mkers or any other team. As a gesture towards the community they could issue a public statement, but only in a PR sense would that have any bearings. There isnt a Blizzard teamleauge from where Mkers could get banned
i know where he lives <_< , i can get the job done bois, ez 2 weeks isolation in his basement, low on food and water, no sunlight, aight he will be a broken guy for the next few years or 4 ever.
On December 16 2019 10:59 Jealous wrote: [quote] Calm down fam.
Well, assuming Nerchio is being truthful and that Mkers haven’t reformed (which seems unlikely giving their response), they kind of are.
Not everyone is in a position to do so of course, but if an employer is fucking over employees they’re fucking over employees.
That kind of worker solidarity is increasingly the preserve of the wealthy though, who can afford to make a stand.
And again with the provision ‘if’ here
If other players are getting paid out and Nerchio is not, then it's not on them to throw away their earning potential for a cause that we ALL have a limited amount of information about.
Which is how employers fuck people over.
As I said, it’s a matter of if it’s actually the case.
Ok, I added an edit but I agree with you given this summary.
And I agree with your edited post, solidarity is nice in theory but you can’t expect people to throw away their livelihood for it.
Hence the need for regulatory action if possible. In this case it’s not overly complicated given it’s Blizzard’s show with relatively few third parties nowadays, you want your team to have players in WCS then have your shit in order.
Sadly I don't think Blizzard cares or even has the a real reason to care nowadays. Basically "ded game" meme but in real life.
Even if it was a much bigger game, Blizz has no business weighing in on issues such as this. Similar problems have happened in the past, including in SC, and in other games, such as the undisputed nr 1 esport (money-wise) Dota2. I have to look up the story, but basically, Valve couldnt get involved, even though they always had a much much much more hands-on approach to esports than Blizz ever did.
How is it not their business?
In regular sports if a team is not paying staff, is insolvent or whatever then the league tends to sanction them.
Well, the comparison between traditional sports and esports really breaks down here.
There isnt a federation of SC2 like NBA or NFL or FIFA where you have to be a member to compete, and u agree to play by their rules
Legally speaking, Blizz has 0 business in sanctioning or even calling out Mkers or any other team. As a gesture towards the community they could issue a public statement, but only in a PR sense would that have any bearings. There isnt a Blizzard teamleauge from where Mkers could get banned
They can ban a Hearthstone player and two casters on a very vague rule about bringing Blizz into disrepute, they can’t legally ban a team who don’t pay their players?
(If) they haven’t honoured agreements then why would you let them publicise their brand on the WCS circuit until they’re resolved? Totally within Blizz’s wheelhouse
On December 19 2019 19:16 Wombat_NI wrote: They can ban a Hearthstone player and two casters on a very vague rule about bringing Blizz into disrepute, they can’t legally ban a team who don’t pay their players?
(If) they haven’t honoured agreements then why would you let them publicise their brand on the WCS circuit until they’re resolved? Totally within Blizz’s wheelhouse
Caster they can ban because they are contracted by Blizz. You can ban a player from competing in your competition.
Do you want blizzard to ban MK from WCS circuit so non of their other players who have nothing to do with this can't play?
Also you are basing this with no knowledge of the actual agreement. If it's so clear cut and it's already public, then Nerchio should share the contract and lets all have a look.
On December 19 2019 19:16 Wombat_NI wrote: They can ban a Hearthstone player and two casters on a very vague rule about bringing Blizz into disrepute, they can’t legally ban a team who don’t pay their players?
(If) they haven’t honoured agreements then why would you let them publicise their brand on the WCS circuit until they’re resolved? Totally within Blizz’s wheelhouse
Caster they can ban because they are contracted by Blizz. You can ban a player from competing in your competition.
Do you want blizzard to ban MK from WCS circuit so non of their other players who have nothing to do with this can't play?
Also you are basing this with no knowledge of the actual agreement. If it's so clear cut and it's already public, then Nerchio should share the contract and lets all have a look.
You make it sounds like Nerchio brought up a problem and MK answered and denied the allegations. When in actual fact they did not, if we had to sides claiming they are in the right here then you would be correct but it is not the case.
Nerchio brought the problem up publicly and MK said "Don't talk about this in public plix", look they never denied any of the allegations which in this context pretty much translates into -> its true.
If its not true Nerchio is looking at defamation depending on how the law works in his country. 1) I doubt Nerchio is stupid enough to slander his employer and open himself up to legal actions (also for what reason would he do this) 2) If Nerchio was slandering MK with little to no basis they would deny allegations outright, not doing so hurts the reputation of the organisation. There is 0 reason not to deny them if they are not true
In regards to Blizzard banning teams that doesn't make sense at all, it all depends how the organisation is structured. In sc2 its less of a league and more like personal sponsorship, in the case of sponsorship there is no way to punish a player because of a sponsor it just doesn't make any sense. Banning Showtime from all wcs just because he is on MK is fair how? That is a very stupid idea if you ask me.
Edit: After further consideration I guess Blizz could ban the MK brand. You know make MK players cover up all the symbols on their uniform/gear and remove the tag from their users in game. Just like some tournaments have done before
On December 20 2019 08:17 Shuffleblade wrote: You make it sounds like Nerchio brought up a problem and MK answered and denied the allegations. When in actual fact they did not, if we had to sides claiming they are in the right here then you would be correct but it is not the case.
Nerchio brought the problem up publicly and MK said "Don't talk about this in public plix", look they never denied any of the allegations which in this context pretty much translates into -> its true.
If its not true Nerchio is looking at defamation depending on how the law works in his country. 1) I doubt Nerchio is stupid enough to slander his employer and open himself up to legal actions (also for what reason would he do this) 2) If Nerchio was slandering MK with little to no basis they would deny allegations outright, not doing so hurts the reputation of the organisation. There is 0 reason not to deny them if they are not true
Agree MK didn't say they don't owe him money. You're missing the point where they are saying they have not been given the proper invoicing. Like I said before, no idea what their contract says. Nerchio want to be reimbursed for expenses, so is he expected to provide tax invoices to verify the costs or does he just get given a budget and can spend on whatever? Has he provided them or is cost in excess of what is allowable? I know if I went to my employer and said "I spent $10,00 on work stuff the other day, pay me" they would give me the finger without more formal documentation. But maybe his contract just says he has a budget and can spend it on anything, or maybe he must get costs agreed before he can spend it. Who know we don't know what the contract says.
To me it sounds like Nerchio took it upon himself to go to this tournament and incurred a lot of costs. We have no idea if that's permissible under their contract or if it is what conditions are attached. I'm assuming here (but I think it's pretty safe) that player contracts don't say oh you can fly to any tournament you want and we will pay regardless of the costs.
In regards to Blizzard banning teams that doesn't make sense at all, it all depends how the organisation is structured. In sc2 its less of a league and more like personal sponsorship, in the case of sponsorship there is no way to punish a player because of a sponsor it just doesn't make any sense. Banning Showtime from all wcs just because he is on MK is fair how? That is a very stupid idea if you ask me.
Edit: After further consideration I guess Blizz could ban the MK brand. You know make MK players cover up all the symbols on their uniform/gear and remove the tag from their users in game. Just like some tournaments have done before
Agree again. But that's the whole point, blizzard can't really do anything about it. This is assuming MK has even done anything illegal (as above we don't know what Nerchio's contract says).
On December 19 2019 19:16 Wombat_NI wrote: They can ban a Hearthstone player and two casters on a very vague rule about bringing Blizz into disrepute, they can’t legally ban a team who don’t pay their players?
(If) they haven’t honoured agreements then why would you let them publicise their brand on the WCS circuit until they’re resolved? Totally within Blizz’s wheelhouse
Caster they can ban because they are contracted by Blizz. You can ban a player from competing in your competition.
Do you want blizzard to ban MK from WCS circuit so non of their other players who have nothing to do with this can't play?
Also you are basing this with no knowledge of the actual agreement. If it's so clear cut and it's already public, then Nerchio should share the contract and lets all have a look.
No, if Mkers are dicking around Blizz should ban the team from WCS. Not the players, as I’ve said before in this thread.
So you get Showtime playing in WCS not ‘Mkers Showtime’ or whatever.
Why should Nerchio share a contract publicly, leave him open to potential legal action if there’s any sort of confidentiality clauses etc?
This is how the real world works, if you’re a cowboy operation fucking around, as many eSports orgs in the past have done, and there’s a central organiser who funds most of the tournaments you get exposure at, just ban them.
Blizzard basically run Starcraft eSports as a goodwill/PR effort it’s entirely within their remit to jump in if something is affecting that.
And as I’ve said multiple times here also, this is assuming Nerchio is in the right here. He may not be, so that should be ascertained.
On December 20 2019 08:17 Shuffleblade wrote: You make it sounds like Nerchio brought up a problem and MK answered and denied the allegations. When in actual fact they did not, if we had to sides claiming they are in the right here then you would be correct but it is not the case.
Nerchio brought the problem up publicly and MK said "Don't talk about this in public plix", look they never denied any of the allegations which in this context pretty much translates into -> its true.
If its not true Nerchio is looking at defamation depending on how the law works in his country. 1) I doubt Nerchio is stupid enough to slander his employer and open himself up to legal actions (also for what reason would he do this) 2) If Nerchio was slandering MK with little to no basis they would deny allegations outright, not doing so hurts the reputation of the organisation. There is 0 reason not to deny them if they are not true
Agree MK didn't say they don't owe him money. You're missing the point where they are saying they have not been given the proper invoicing. Like I said before, no idea what their contract says. Nerchio want to be reimbursed for expenses, so is he expected to provide tax invoices to verify the costs or does he just get given a budget and can spend on whatever? Has he provided them or is cost in excess of what is allowable? I know if I went to my employer and said "I spent $10,00 on work stuff the other day, pay me" they would give me the finger without more formal documentation. But maybe his contract just says he has a budget and can spend it on anything, or maybe he must get costs agreed before he can spend it. Who know we don't know what the contract says.
To me it sounds like Nerchio took it upon himself to go to this tournament and incurred a lot of costs. We have no idea if that's permissible under their contract or if it is what conditions are attached. I'm assuming here (but I think it's pretty safe) that player contracts don't say oh you can fly to any tournament you want and we will pay regardless of the costs.
.
You comparison to a work place would be fair if you in the example tried to get in contact with your boss for weeks by all means necessary before taking on any costs but received no answer until you needed to pay to be able to do your job.
Sounds a bit unreasonable if the contract says "costs must be cleared by us" and then the team never clear any costs because they never respond. Nerchio is clear that he sought contact far in advance but got no answer until it was time to pay or dropout.
You make it sound like tournaments is some kind of pasttime for pro games, playing sc2 is his job it could very well be he would get into trouble with MK if didn't go and promote the brand.
Anyway you read it Nerchio writes he asked well in advance, got to answer inspite of an open well known deadline loomed which forced his hand.
So they don't deny they ignored Nerchio for months? They don't deny they haven't paid him but writes "maybe we didn't get an invoice", how is Nerchio supposed to know to send an invoice if he is being ignored by the organization.
Of course we only know one side here but seeing as MK doesn't deny any of it makes it very unlikely they have done what is expected of them, as I posted earlier they would deny the allegations if untrue.
On December 20 2019 09:02 Shuffleblade wrote: You comparison to a work place would be fair if you in the example tried to get in contact with your boss for weeks by all means necessary before taking on any costs but received no answer until you needed to pay to be able to do your job.
The correct response in the work place if you don't get the ok from your boss is to not do whatever it is you think needs to be done. E.g. you need to go to another worksite/state/country for your work. You boss has not given you the ok even though you think it's absolute necessary. You don't do whatever it is. It is not ok to decide on your own to just do it and expect the company to pay you after the fact.
Sounds a bit unreasonable if the contract says "costs must be cleared by us" and then the team never clear any costs because they never respond. Nerchio is clear that he sought contact far in advance but got no answer until it was time to pay or dropout.
Yes it's unreasonable and poor management. But the correct response is not go. Claim contract violation by MK and find a new team. Similarly if this happened in a normal workplace, you don't do whatever it is you wanted to do and go get another job.
You make it sound like tournaments is some kind of pasttime for pro games, playing sc2 is his job it could very well be he would get into trouble with MK if didn't go and promote the brand.
Anyway you read it Nerchio writes he asked well in advance, got to answer inspite of an open well known deadline loomed which forced his hand.
Yes just because he asked in advance doesn't mean MK has to say yes. Again we don't have the contract so we don't know what MK must do or can refuse to do. By this logic any employee can chose to spend any money they think fits, and as long as they warn the company beforehand they can claim any money back that they want.
So they don't deny they ignored Nerchio for months? They don't deny they haven't paid him but writes "maybe we didn't get an invoice", how is Nerchio supposed to know to send an invoice if he is being ignored by the organization.
Of course we only know one side here but seeing as MK doesn't deny any of it makes it very unlikely they have done what is expected of them, as I posted earlier they would deny the allegations if untrue.
Providing invoices for work related expenses is a pretty normal part of work. Ignorance is not a defence.
To be perfectly, honest what I suspect has happened is that MK for some reason had a window of very poor management. Either people were busy, they were understaffed or something but didn't get their management shit together, but had not done anything that technically breached their contract.
Nerchio probably had a lot to complain about but took it upon himself to do what he felt was morally the right thing to do however in doing so didn't comply fully with their contract.
On December 20 2019 08:45 Wombat_NI wrote: No, if Mkers are dicking around Blizz should ban the team from WCS. Not the players, as I’ve said before in this thread.
So you get Showtime playing in WCS not ‘Mkers Showtime’ or whatever.
And how is showtime going to pay for the trips without a sponsor or I assume his contract with MKers would say if he plays publicly he will need to player as MKers showtime. How will he comply with that and the Blizz ban, if blizz was to ban. Practically not possible.
Why should Nerchio share a contract publicly, leave him open to potential legal action if there’s any sort of confidentiality clauses etc?
He doesn't have to. But his also asking the public to just believe his story. Atm it's just he says she says. Him claiming XYZ. MKers claiming ABC.
This is how the real world works, if you’re a cowboy operation fucking around, as many eSports orgs in the past have done, and there’s a central organiser who funds most of the tournaments you get exposure at, just ban them.
Blizzard basically run Starcraft eSports as a goodwill/PR effort it’s entirely within their remit to jump in if something is affecting that.
And as I’ve said multiple times here also, this is assuming Nerchio is in the right here. He may not be, so that should be ascertained.
I think you're last point is the most important. Problem is we don't know if Nerchio is in the right. Calling on Blizz to ban anyone when we have no idea who is in the right or wrong is ridiculous.
Also NO the real world doesn't care if you're a cowboy or not. Plenty of cowboys make lots of money and are successful in their field. The real world works on the law. Has MK actually broken a policy/contract/law etc. Unless they have Blizz has no right to ban them from anything.
On December 20 2019 08:45 Wombat_NI wrote: No, if Mkers are dicking around Blizz should ban the team from WCS. Not the players, as I’ve said before in this thread.
So you get Showtime playing in WCS not ‘Mkers Showtime’ or whatever.
And how is showtime going to pay for the trips without a sponsor or I assume his contract with MKers would say if he plays publicly he will need to player as MKers showtime. How will he comply with that and the Blizz ban, if blizz was to ban. Practically not possible.
This is how the real world works, if you’re a cowboy operation fucking around, as many eSports orgs in the past have done, and there’s a central organiser who funds most of the tournaments you get exposure at, just ban them.
Blizzard basically run Starcraft eSports as a goodwill/PR effort it’s entirely within their remit to jump in if something is affecting that.
And as I’ve said multiple times here also, this is assuming Nerchio is in the right here. He may not be, so that should be ascertained.
I think you're last point is the most important. Problem is we don't know if Nerchio is in the right. Calling on Blizz to ban anyone when we have no idea who is in the right or wrong is ridiculous.
Also NO the real world doesn't care if you're a cowboy or not. Plenty of cowboys make lots of money and are successful in their field. The real world works on the law. Has MK actually broken a policy/contract/law etc. Unless they have Blizz has no right to ban them from anything.
I’m not really calling for that at all.
Blizzard run the show, Blizzard have lawyers
If Nerchio is talking shit then, no action. Indeed if Nerchio is being irresponsible and wrong in this domain, and Mkers are completely blameless, ban him for impugning their reputation.
I’m questioning the idea that Blizzard don’t have the remit in this domain
If Nerchio is talking shit then, no action. Indeed if Nerchio is being irresponsible and wrong in this domain, and Mkers are completely blameless, ban him for impugning their reputation.
I’m questioning the idea that Blizzard don’t have the remit in this domain
I agree, Blizz will absolutely have options under some circumstances. However, Blizzards remit really only applies if there has been breaches to the law or to their policies. I'm just pointing out practically speaking it is unlikely that one party is completely blameless, either ethically or legally. In those circumstances, it would be unwise to take sides as you will effectively be sending the message that ethics>legals or vice versa.
The correct response in the work place if you don't get the ok from your boss is to not do whatever it is you think needs to be done. E.g. you need to go to another worksite/state/country for your work. You boss has not given you the ok even though you think it's absolute necessary. You don't do whatever it is. It is not ok to decide on your own to just do it and expect the company to pay you after the fact.
This one seems a bit situational TBH I mean, of course you are right for most cases. But I understand this situation more like they made the contract like "hey nerchio, you are going to all WCS events next year and PR for us" and then month before the events is radio silence. So basically he IS doing what his boss wants. And if he is NOT going he is breaching the contract and makes himself vulnerable legally.
And MKers did not say ABC, they said you are right but where are the invoices. Which doesn't seem to be problem because at least flight and hotel invoices can easily be backtracked half a year later (if you don't erase you emails and stuff) Might only be a tax problem there, depending on tax law.
I would only want Blizz involvement after the two parties have this legally sorted out and not a second before. Because then they have grounds to A: either ban Nerchio for slandering or B: ban MKers for contract breaching from all WCS events
I would like to inform you about the solution to the problem of missing salary from Mkers team. As a result of talks between lawyers, the money is in my account and I consider this matter so far to be resolved.
On December 26 2019 02:42 Nerchio wrote: I would like to inform you about the solution to the problem of missing salary from Mkers team. As a result of talks between lawyers, the money is in my account and I consider this matter so far to be resolved.
Nice, very unfortunate, that you had so much trouble with that but at least you got your money.
On December 26 2019 02:42 Nerchio wrote: I would like to inform you about the solution to the problem of missing salary from Mkers team. As a result of talks between lawyers, the money is in my account and I consider this matter so far to be resolved.
Even something so basic like "paying salary to your employee" had to take months + lawyering up is really a sad thing to see in the scene. At least, Nerchio is a veteran who has the experience to deal with this. Any other youngsters, they probably gave up already.
They still don't get it do they? If they replied to players' emails and pay them on time this wouldn't have happened.
Before we get out the pitchforks, note this in the Mkers twitlonger:
...who determined that Mr.Bloch’s initial demands did not correspond to the contract agreements signed by both parties.
If we take this at face value, it seems like Nerchio did in fact make mistake in his initial statement. If that is the case, Nerchio just saying "our lawyers talked and I got money" is indeed somewhat unfair, since Mkers was correct in disagreeing w/ his initial request.
Of course, that's a bit of a leap, nobody but the two of them currently knows what went down. And Mkers is really not phrasing things well on Twitter, and a team probably should make less of a fuss over disagreements with one player, and Nerchio aired many other grievances than just salary that are pretty grievous. But there does seem to have been a mutual misunderstanding at some point a while back, and isn't just a case of one-sided bullying
Even if what they say about the mismatched demands is true, Nerchio has no obligation to disclose that publicly (I'm not a lawyer, but that seems obvious). For them to say his failure to do that is a "distorted representation of facts" with a goal to "damage [their] company" seems like borderline libel.
The statement Nerchio made could not be more neutral and it seems likely from the language that his lawyer wrote or approved it. That contrasts greatly from the weirdly emotional and poorly-thought-out responses we've seen from Mkers.
This organization is such a massive joke. The level of incompetence and stupidity of the people in this org are also astounding. So embarrassing. Stay away from them for god's sake.
...who determined that Mr.Bloch’s initial demands did not correspond to the contract agreements signed by both parties.
If we take this at face value, it seems like Nerchio did in fact make mistake in his initial statement. If that is the case, Nerchio just saying "our lawyers talked and I got money" is indeed somewhat unfair, since Mkers was correct in disagreeing w/ his initial request.
Of course, that's a bit of a leap, nobody but the two of them currently knows what went down. And Mkers is really not phrasing things well on Twitter, and a team probably should make less of a fuss over disagreements with one player, and Nerchio aired many other grievances than just salary that are pretty grievous. But there does seem to have been a mutual misunderstanding at some point a while back, and isn't just a case of one-sided bullying
Likely because Nerchio was seeking more money for the breach of contract is why, he had to hire a lawyer to deal with this after all. Not surprising it was worked down to a lower/"correct" number. MKers haven't acted in good faith this entire time, so I'm not sure why you want to give it to them now.
How does this explain them not originally paying what *was* contractually agreed upon? It doesn't right?
As for the "he asked for more" part, I feel like those are standard disputes that can be easily solved in a healthy environment.Plus Nerchio clearly dropped that request without it being a very big deal. If it's even true lol
On January 14 2020 09:52 TentativePanda wrote: Wait...
How does this explain them not originally paying what *was* contractually agreed upon? It doesn't right?
As for the "he asked for more" part, I feel like those are standard disputes that can be easily solved in a healthy environment.Plus Nerchio clearly dropped that request without it being a very big deal. If it's even true lol
To me it sounds like Nerchio didn't fulfill the requirements in this contract with Mkers. It could be streaming, placing top 4 in WCS, or more.
Lol, but Mkers acknowledged that they payed out something. If they had acted in good faith, and responded to Nerchio in the first place, saying stuff like "you asked for this payment, but this is not part of the contract, etc" then Nerchio wouldn't have been forced to go public.
It was because Mkers did nothing hoping the situation will blow over that their name was dragged in the mud.
‘Once again, we would like to reiterate how a wrong and damaging use of social media can be prejudicial, not only our company but the whole sector.’
While I do agree that people can readily grab the pitchforks and this is an issue, in this particular example MKers lack of a timely response, coupled with their actual responses when they did get in gear eventually have been much more damaging to their rep, at least to me anyway.
My guess is that the disputable part was refund of costs of travel and accomodation to Nerchio. Usually this should be arranged by the team or the team should approve such expenses. But since there was a communicatons brakedown the team didnt do this, so formally Nerchio was not entitled to a refund.
On January 15 2020 02:30 Kafka777 wrote: My guess is that the disputable part was refund of costs of travel and accomodation to Nerchio. Usually this should be arranged by the team or the team should approve such expenses. But since there was a communicatons brakedown the team didnt do this, so formally Nerchio was not entitled to a refund.
You're probably right and they tried to fight it but in court, MKers would be held liable within reason as they didn't respond in time and Nerchio, in order to fulfil his contractual obligations had to make reservations on his own.
Provided they were of the same quality/price bracket as the lodging MKers had provided in the past, then MKers should have shut up and just paid the man. Lawyers getting involved was a waste of resources here on their part and the train of events was very simplistic so anyone in a place of power for MKers could have deduced what happened in 5 minutes if they cared enough to investigate with a few phone calls.
MKers dun goofed up. Bad. And Nerchio wasn't completely honest when taking this to the public which makes him look bad. Not that he has to be honest when doing stuff like that but imo, it tarnishes his reputation when he slants perception with omission of events. Both parties should do better in the future.
Nerchio says "MKers paid me, situation is settled.". Weeks later, MKers replies with "Now hold on, we paid him, but we didn't pay him what he asked for, just what we should have paid him in the first place". The most likely option here being that Nerchio asked for more than just his salary and the travel cost as a compensation. Because, again, the payment was late by several months (nearly half a year for salary and well over that for travel).
We didn't get told how much Nerchio was asking. We didn't get told how much was paid. Because contrary to what MKers seems to be trying to claim, Nerchio isn't a total shithead. So then why would it be important for us to know there was a difference between those sums? Why would they think this would put them in a better light?
Honestly this story turned from upsetting to absolute comedy gold.
Paying nothing because the creditor is asking for more than you believe is owed, is not acceptable. I've heard this defence used in court countless times and it never holds up. If the creditor is asking for more than you believe is owed, you should still pay at least that amount.
The only relevant facts here are that Nerchio was owed money, that MKers initially refused to pay that money and that Nerchio had to enlist the help of a lawyer to get paid.
I dont think Nerchio ,enlisted any lawyers. MKers have lawyers and they probably just didnt refund his costs,, which in fact they should have anyway by own default. However I know how contracts are written, so generally the player does not have a chance in case of any dispute. Hecould pursue this further but cost of a lawyer would cost probably 3k euro while the contested amount is 1-2 k euro
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Nerchio says "MKers paid me, situation is settled.".
It could be poor language but he said "missing salary". I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get any of the travel expenses back.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: We didn't get told how much Nerchio was asking. We didn't get told how much was paid. Because contrary to what MKers seems to be trying to claim, Nerchio isn't a total shithead. So then why would it be important for us to know there was a difference between those sums?
Because the main dispute was over the travel expenses. I don't think there was ever a dispute over the pay. Not making a payment when there is a component in dispute is very normal.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Why would they think this would put them in a better light?
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Nerchio says "MKers paid me, situation is settled.".
It could be poor language but he said "missing salary". I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get any of the travel expenses back.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: We didn't get told how much Nerchio was asking. We didn't get told how much was paid. Because contrary to what MKers seems to be trying to claim, Nerchio isn't a total shithead. So then why would it be important for us to know there was a difference between those sums?
Because the main dispute was over the travel expenses. I don't think there was ever a dispute over the pay. Not making a payment when there is a component in dispute is very normal.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Why would they think this would put them in a better light?
They are clowns ans so are you. At least you have apprecieation for their PR
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Nerchio says "MKers paid me, situation is settled.".
It could be poor language but he said "missing salary". I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get any of the travel expenses back.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: We didn't get told how much Nerchio was asking. We didn't get told how much was paid. Because contrary to what MKers seems to be trying to claim, Nerchio isn't a total shithead. So then why would it be important for us to know there was a difference between those sums?
Because the main dispute was over the travel expenses. I don't think there was ever a dispute over the pay. Not making a payment when there is a component in dispute is very normal.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Why would they think this would put them in a better light?
They are clowns ans so are you. At least you have apprecieation for their PR
How’s Elentos a clown here? Seem pretty sensible points to me...
Before signing with Mkers we agreed that all main Starcraft 2 events travel and accommodation will be paid by the team (if agreed beforehand) and everything went smooth in those regards only for the first event under the contract – IEM Katowice 2019. After that I tried to contact the organization to prepare the accommodation and travel for WCS Spring ahead of time so we would get cheaper flights as well as hotel. Very often time is of the essence in this matter because hotels close to the tournament venue are usually booked really fast or prices skyrocket and you unnecessarily have to overpay. But it might be just matter of convenience. For WCS Summer and WCS Spring tournament organizer required players to confirm their participation by sending your flight tickets and hotel booking around 1 week before the tournament started.
The biggest problem is that Mkers organization never responded to me before WCS Spring and I was finally forced to book everything myself at the last moment before the tournament (less than 1 week) or I would be risking withdrawal from the tournament. I was already talking to the organizers that I have troubles with the team booking and asking them for additional time to confirm my slot in the tournament. The thing about all of this is that it puts insane amount of pressure on the player when the team acts like what I described above. Traveling abroad for professional tournament should be planned beforehand from start to finish.
For those that think Nerchio didn't talk about the travel costs, read his original post. The issue he faced was that the non-communication with Mkers meant that he was forced to act or miss out on the event.
Now, if Mkers had said something like, "we're not going to fund you" or something along those lines, then Nerchio would clearly have known where he stood.
In my opinion (I don't know the full facts), in regards to the travel costs, I think that Mkers got away with a technicality. Yes, Nerchio should have got approval first, but if it went to court, I believe that it could've gone either way (and I do believe the magistrate will rule in Nerchio's favours). This was because there was precedence - Nerchio had travel costs reimbursed in the past.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Nerchio says "MKers paid me, situation is settled.".
It could be poor language but he said "missing salary". I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get any of the travel expenses back.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: We didn't get told how much Nerchio was asking. We didn't get told how much was paid. Because contrary to what MKers seems to be trying to claim, Nerchio isn't a total shithead. So then why would it be important for us to know there was a difference between those sums?
Because the main dispute was over the travel expenses. I don't think there was ever a dispute over the pay. Not making a payment when there is a component in dispute is very normal.
On January 15 2020 04:32 Elentos wrote: Why would they think this would put them in a better light?
They are clowns ans so are you. At least you have apprecieation for their PR
How’s Elentos a clown here? Seem pretty sensible points to me...
Pretty sure he just monumentally fucked up the quote and wanted the guy responding to me instead.
They might want to consider spending some money on a PR rep and a player manager instead of having to pay lawyers later. The whole thing is just unprofessional and unnecessary from start to finish.
For me it sounds unprofessional and unnecessary too. My friend recently faced almost the same situation. He got an email saying that he was getting his $1500 payment via e-transfer. He just had to click the link and log in with his bank information to complete the transaction. This webpage had correct bank logos, CRA logo, official looking email and all! The strange thing was that he had already got his payment and the email was from some african email. So, People need to look out, be careful and be even more diligent than usual because the hackers are getting tricky. I heard that they also started to scam with western union and used western union carding tutorial.
EPT
Do you think addressing people this way will further the discourse in any meaningful manner? 
)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELW7cB1XkAIyjbX.png:large)
, but i'm for one am not glad of it.
